This last weekend I had a chance to shoot a 200-yard CMP match in Pasco, WA. First time I've fired a live round since early September, and the first time shooting a national match course since May, since I was working Appleseeds or running 100-yard matches at Port Townsend all year. For those unfamiliar, it's 10 rounds offhand (standing) in 10 minutes; 2+8 rounds transition to sitting in 60 seconds; 2+8 rounds transition to prone in 70 seconds; 20 rounds slow prone in 20 minutes.
First string was offhand, and I shot a personal best 95-3X. Confident my zero was good, I then shot a 90-0X in sitting. Hmm! Vertical stringing, but shots looked low and right. Maybe just a lack of practice, I thought to myself?
Well, on to prone rapid. During the reload, I checked through my spotting scope and saw I was low right again, so held on the top of the black. Since I usually shoot mid-90s in rapids, I was displeased with a personal worst of 80-0X (one complete miss due to mismanaged follow-through on a new trigger).
How did I make this worse? I still didn't trust my target. In the final stage, slow prone, my first shot was an outside 7 at six-o-clock, and I knew I had good elevation. I cranked up four clicks and fired again, and had an inside 9 at three-o-clock, which I'd called as an X. I cranked 3 clicks left and started hitting 10s for a sloppy 186-4X.
The lesson here, as always, is that YOUR TARGET DOESN'T LIE. Don't be afraid to adjust your sighting system, especially if your shots are on call. I'm still not sure why my zero changed so much from offhand to the sling-supported positions, since that's never happened to me before. Combined with doubt from lack of practice, that uncertainty cost me 20-30 points.
A great reminder that sometimes the issue isn't you. Take the feedback and do the Rifleman's Dance. It requires you have the confidence you're doing stuff right and something has changed.
This weekend, I was shooting a new upper from a builder with a sterling reputation. I started having misfires. I burned a bunch of ammo trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Was it my trigger? My trusty handloads? Surely it was something I did wrong.
I simply didn't have the confidence to question the shiny new hardware. It's going back to the builder today.
Rifleman's Dance works. :)
Maxwell, Right on!
95 offhand is AWESOME! You have beaten me @ 200 standing! I have not been able to do above a 93 in a match. Once during a team practice @ Quantico, but that was practice!
Seated vertical stringing...., OK. Breathing bro! Unbutton your pants? Loosen the belt?
I am also struggling but getting better in seated. If I forget about the CLOCK and follow thru on every single shot, I can clean it seated. BUT....., I average 97 now. Getting better.
TARGET does not lie..., but....as Rusty points out....you were dancing!
CONFIDENCE and that only comes from being in the situation you were in this past match. It may happen again, and you will get even angrier, and at some point...your confidence will kick in and you won't tolerate that BS, cause (Wait for it......) "It is LIKE you to shoot X's and 10's, and not LIKE you to shoot anything but"! Lanny Bassham stuff there.
READ the book, again....if ya haven't already. I need to read it again myself. It is pretty much 98% mental for me now. No excuses.
BUT...to others reading, I still want to PRAISE your 95 offhand! THAT is some fine shooting!
Caution to the others reading....., in order to properly start the Riflemans Dance (and I dread having to dance).....one must be a master of the fundamentals and also able to reliably and consistently call the shots! Then the magic happens!
Congrats Maxwell, you are doing well. Don't focus on the negative bro!
You will FIX seated. As Greg Ficklin says "Rapid fire strings are the FREE THROWS of HP"! GOTTA make em!
R/
Chris
OH....and maybe instead of holding over (cause that messes with your pre-established NPOA)....
Maybe simply "turn the knobs" The correct way of course! LOL.....been there done that.
R/
Chris
OH...
and read my post in here about my off hand zero @ 200 being 1.5 MOA UP from my seated zero same 200 yard line.
It means that your positions are becoming more SOLID and it is perfectly acceptable to have a different zero for standing and seated.
Even at a 100 yard match, ALL my zeros were different for the 3 positions.
Takes awhile for some (me) to get there, to where I am actually dialing a ZERO for the positions and not necessarily a "one size fits all" zero for the yard line.
OK...that's all from me, LOL
I LIED, one more OBTW!
DO not get married to your zeros! Aaron (Aloreman) hammered that into me recently.
Even at the same range, a different firing point can affect the zero. Use your sighters, or....first 2 in rapids to VERIFY or ADJUST the zero.
Sometimes at the same ranges, when I was on the Vortex (1/2 MOA per click), my zero at same ranges (places) would differ by +/- .5MOA.
I've sinced moved to a March and CANNOT wait to see what that 1/4 MOA per click will yield me at 600! Goal is a 300 clean with X's in Rapid and a 600 clean!
Came close last match, beat my buddy Marty Dabney (you have heard of him I am sure).....with a 100-6 at 300. CLOSE, but not a 10X
Anyways..., I love hearing about marksmanship trials and tribulations like this!
I'm out for now! LOL
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 06, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
OH....and maybe instead of holding over (cause that messes with your pre-established NPOA)....
Maybe simply "turn the knobs" The correct way of course! LOL.....been there done that.
R/
Chris
Wow. What a thought. The only long range I have ever done is a couple of KD's. Some are in the camp of 'knob fiddling' is bad. Some are not. I guess the danger is in getting lost in the settings, but I think that is where doing ones homework would come in (which I of course don't have time to do). I think I prefer to twist with iron sights so I can still see the target, but I tend to hold over with a scope. Never thought about the fact the that screws up NPOA. Maybe it is time to do my homework and learn how to keep track of those knobs. DOPE cards.
NRA and CMP are very different from Rifleman standards and methods, even if cof is much the same. Eating the x ring vs. making hits - first shot hits with no sighters. There is much to be learnt from both.
True statement Phenry.
Appleseed centric here, on a hits count type KD...a BSZ and holdovers are adequate.
Not at all "precise", but they work for "hitting the black".
As Phenry alludes to, the X ring on the NRA targets is 1 MOA. 10 ring (inclusive of X) is 2 MOA *ish*.
So, here is the issue, logically speaking....IF X's and 10's are the goal THEN one should "turn the knobs".
For me it is more about having a reputable "HOLD" /SIGHT Picture. If for example, I am solid in my position, and send a sighter (or a shot for score) downrange. It comes up as a low 8. That is pretty much 4 MOA ish from my aiming point.
I could HOLD higher, but that is a NPOA shift. OR....I could simply dial up 4 MOA. Or whatever it comes out to be.
Rarely would I ever consider "hold overs". I may hold/favor one side of the X ring. But that is about it. The solid position and "turning the knobs" are absolutely more precise.
I can honestly say (KNOCK on wood) that I have never gotten "lost in the knobs" during a string of fire.
I have a data book, and start with my standard ZERO for that yard line, and refine it from there. Typically elevation is not a problem. It is windage mainly that I am dialing for. My book every time I make a windage or elevation adjustment, I record that. So that after the COF I now know for certain, that at that range, that time of day, that lighting condition, that firing point, that temperature and that wind condition I can CONFIDENTLY dial my ending zero and make a first round X or 10!
THAT is the goal in EIC matches, as there are ZERO sighters. One must have the data, or develop it thru the COF (Riflemans Dance type stuff).
Think about it type stuff here.
During a precision UKD event I attended a few years ago, the lead instructor asked us "if you need to move POI RIGHT on the target, which direction is that on your knob"?
Heck...I took a LUCKY guess and was right.
BUT...I did not know. LOL.
Learn your knobs as well.
When I was shooting the AR (A2/iron sights) and the Garand it was easy. RIGHT was turn towards the target, LEFT was turn towards the shooter.
Scopes can be different, LEFT is not always towards the shooter. So....point here is to be familiar with the rifle and your scope/sights.
This is why I am a BIG FAN of scopes with a ZERO stop and turrets that can be indexed for a zero. Would have to look, but it is well over 18 MOA per full rotation on my windage knob. If I have it set at a no wind zero, and have properly indexed the turrets to reflect that, how can one get lost? Who is shooting in over 18 MOA of wind! Let me meet you and shake your hand! LOL
Same with the Irons. On my A2, I have a white sharpie witness mark for windage, and the elevation drum is marked as well for a 200 yard zero.
On the Garand.....I have windage set to index with middle of hash marks and the elevation I simply run it down and count it back up. 9-11 clicks dependent on ammo and distance (100/200).
SO, I am a big fan of becoming intimately familiar with one's equipment.
Practice during dry fire! In position (cause it won't break your position to turn the knobs), without looking make a 1 MOA right adjustment on optic, then a 1 MOA left. Till your body subconsciously will not really have to think about it.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 13, 2017, 02:59:36 PM
So, here is the issue, logically speaking....IF X's and 10's are the goal THEN one should "turn the knobs".
For me it is more about having a reputable "HOLD" /SIGHT Picture. If for example, I am solid in my position, and send a sighter (or a shot for score) downrange. It comes up as a low 8. That is pretty much 4 MOA ish from my aiming point.
I don't really think my post was in conflict with AS, though I guess you can teach KD as a BSZ exercise, and it's practically useful to understand both: I was trying to emphasize the target feedback aspect. At a 25-m AS, we spend time on sighter squares refining position, repeating the six steps (consistent sight picture, anyone?), and teaching IMC. It's the opposite of "well, just hold high and to the left/right," which to me only makes sense when you have something without easily adjustable sights (even the M1917, SMLE, and K-31 have elevation adjustments).
An EIC match has no sighters. You better know your zeoes if you want to shoot well.
My seated zero is 1 moa up from my standing. Both at 200 yards. My 300 rapid prone zero is 3 moa up from seated zero. My 600 yard prone zero is up 11 moa. All of these are for a center hold. Depending on light, however, I may shoot a 6 clock, a flat tire or a reverse flat tire at 600 yards even with a scope.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 14, 2017, 12:48:14 AM
My seated zero is 1 moa up from my standing. Both at 200 yards. My 300 rapid prone zero is 3 moa up from seated zero. My 600 yard prone zero is up 11 moa.
I think I know what you're saying, but I want to make sure. The MOA adjustments that you're referencing are the changes you make to compensate for shooting at different *distances*, not merely because you're firing from a different position, correct? If you're shooting 600 yards in prone vs. something else, you're not saying that you change your sights by 11 MOA, right?
Nashville stage,
The ZEROS eventually will be by position.
My 200 standing position is my ZERO. When I drop down to seated I adjust 1.25 - 1.5 MOA.
300: I am up 4 MOA from my standing zero @ 200
600: I am up 14 MOA from my standing zero @200
**those are STARTING Zeros, I am not married to them at all** They could differ as much as .5MOA to .75MOA dependent on conditions.
For example...200 yard seated zero will differ by as much or more than 1 MOA for Standing at the same yard line.
As positions become more solid, perfect steady hold factors...one will realize that each of the 3 positions will have a different zero at the same yard line.
On the LARGE KD AQT targets and the QDAQT, the standing and seated targets are so large, that most of this "positional zero" stuff is lost in the noise of the large target.
But....go to a 100 or 200 yard range. Get a SOLID prone zero, then shift to seated at same distance. You should realize a zero shift. RECORD that. Then stand at same yard line, and record that zero.
JMDavis is spot on!
R
Chris
Quote from: Nashville Stage on November 14, 2017, 01:00:28 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on November 14, 2017, 12:48:14 AM
My seated zero is 1 moa up from my standing. Both at 200 yards. My 300 rapid prone zero is 3 moa up from seated zero. My 600 yard prone zero is up 11 moa.
I think I know what you're saying, but I want to make sure. The MOA adjustments that you're referencing are the changes you make to compensate for shooting at different *distances*, not merely because you're firing from a different position, correct? If you're shooting 600 yards in prone vs. something else, you're not saying that you change your sights by 11 MOA, right?
I'm not jmdavis, but we alluded to this during our KD this weekend on Sunday.
You and your rifle are a system. Shooting supported from the bench and shooting prone will likely give you a very different zero.
For precision shooters, they have the same situation going on. Shooting the same distance in different positions, they may need to tweak their zero - because the "system" changed. Of course, this implies the shooter has
absolute command of the fundamentals and is effectively calling shots.
For Appleseed, these differences from position to position are usually negligible or are folded into our practiced come-ups.
Wow. What a discussion guys. Thank everyone. Dang I wish I had a range nearby to work this stuff out at.
BadDaryl,
The place to work the stuff out, is at home thru dry firing. Truly that is where the stuff starts to come together.
As I mentioned earlier, every position I shoot at the same yard line, has a different zero. This only revealed itself to me a few months back. I noticed a TREND in my data book for Standing. I shoot standing and seated at the 200 yard line, and my standing groups AS THEY BEGAN TO TIGHTEN UP, were 1.25 MOA LOW from my seated zero at the same line.
Initially, I had a 200/300/600 zero. None of my zeros were position driven.
As your steady hold factors get better (thru dry fire practice) and the 6 steps of firing the shot, you will also realize a zero shift via positions at the same distances.
Think of the 25M AQT. From bottom to top.....SMALL slow prone, larger rapid prone, LARGER rapid seated and HUGE standing target. Were I to use a Center of Mass hold on the slow prones, I would likely need to adjust my sights, or my hold on the subsequent targets because of my position changes.
So....provided you have the "positions" solid as mentioned above....Dry Fire practice is where the magic starts to happen. If you dry fire practice in these positions, in time when you go to live fire, you should and will absolutely realize an improvement in scores.
I think my highest 25M AQT score was a 233 or something like that. I know Aggrivere (Scott) has CLEANED the 25M AQT. Maybe set that as a goal. I wonder if Scott changed any sight settings on his clean(s)? It is only 25M, so possibly it is lost in the noise....maybe not.
A KD goal I would suggest is to have all shots in the V ring. It is definitely attainable. IF you can put them all in the V ring at 100 yards standing....do take up CMP/NRA High Power rifle, because you are well on your way.
R/
Chris
GOALS....with them I improve. Without them I stagnate.
That 100 yard slow prone target doesn't leave much wiggle room. Does it?
The changes from 200 to 300 to 600 are position and distance. But there is an order to things. You need good solid positions and good trigger control before you start worrying too much about the 1/2 to 1 moa of difference on a large target. But if you want center hits you will eventually find the need to determine your own zeroes. Not mine, not Navy Bowhnters, not Carlos Hathcock's. You will reach a point where you are unwilling to accept a half minute unintended variation.
There is a reason why National champions review their data books before matches, they don't want to leave anything to chance if they can avoid it. I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I will tell you what I do and these things are based on what I have learned shooting with and being coached by National Champion rifle and pistol shooters. A coincidence is that most of those people are Marines or were taught to shoot by Marines.
Actually, if you zero on the stage 4 targets, you should do fine on an AQT at 25m. For KD, I change my sights, because that is why they are there. But if you just want to hit the paper or hit somewhere in the black, feel free. I approach KD and score it as I would a 25m AQT. I have also repeatedly seen good shooters fall apart when the get to 300 yards.
Knob direction. We just had a shoot over the weekend where one of our attendees who had been shooting sighters very well with great groups, decided to do his own IMC. His groups were off and he ended up going the wrong way with his elevation knob. So far in fact that I had several baffle strikes because of the error. When we discussed his mistake, he said he had been shooting that rifle/scope combo for several years and thought he was familiar with the adjustments. Just goes to show you that sometimes it pays to slow down and verify your adjustments. I'm guilty of it myself. I'll look through the scope and see I need to come down 2 mins and I'll turn the knob without looking and end up going the wrong way.
WOW...this is an old post, but still extremely germane.
I used to be that "navybowhunter" guy.
I kind of agree with everything he had to say above, LOL.
This is good stuff.