For standard Appleseed KD course of fire.
Standing @ 100, Rapid Seated @ 200, Rapid prone @ 300 and Slow prone @ 400 yards.
Recommend you do your ammo testing separate from setting the zero. Feel free to shoot from bench, using a lead sled, and finding out what ammo your rifle groups the best. Once that data is obtained...you have your chosen load/ammo.
Now...here is where the better shooters may want to check this, what I am about to suggest.
For me....and many other successful shooters, the zero for standing is significantly different than a zero for seated or prone at the same yard line. For example, in NRA HP and CMP matches we shoot standing at 200 yards and Rapid seated. My standing zero is 1.5 MOA up from my seated zero at the same yard line.
I did not get to a point where I realized this until my shooting in the standing position started to improve. My wobble area started to shrink more and more. I started to realize "tighter groups" on the target, but they were all low, in the 8 and 9 rings.
If you have the opportunity, practice standing at 100 yards on a target. Obtain a STANDING zero. Use a 10 shot group to do this. If you can call your shots, then you are ready for this.
So what if it is a 7 MOA group, is it centered on the bullseye? Take the center of the group, no matter how large it is in standing, and refine your zero to bring the center of the group to the bullseye.
Then get in seated position and also prone and see if the zero for standing Point of Impact is different. It likely will be, maybe by as much as .75 - 2 MOA.
Record the proper zeros at 100 yards for all 3 positions. You can then use standard comeups, or refined/proven/tested come ups for the other yard lines and positions.
Standing is the money maker in NRA matches...,and once you have a solid standing position, you can affect the scores in a positive way, if you change your zero for that position to bring the center of your group to the bullseye.
Yes, the Appleseed KD targets are HUGE and at 100 yards it is significantly larger than 15 MOA as I recall. Some may think, "If I am hitting the black standing, so what....", and that is OK as well.
IF you want to improve/become better....wouldn't you be more satisfied with all shots in the V or 5 on the target? Now that would reflect some skill!
KD shooting is fun...even on a hits count type KD, I mean.....any distance shooting is fun. But the name of the game is accuracy and precision.
Give it a try....you may just impress yourself and your peers!
R/
Chris
If you are lucky enough to have an Appleseed KD target to zero with, that is also great...BUT...it is a HUGE target.
If using a KD target to practice/zero for Standing at 100 yards, use something small to aim at for a refined zero. If your using a scope, maybe aim for the angle in the V.
If using iron sights, maybe get some white pasters to cover the V and aim for center mast or 6 o clock on that.
Or...
1. Zero at 25
2. Confirm far zero at 300 (200 for M1/M1A)
3. Shoot battlesight zero out to 300; no sight changes; let trajectory do the work
4. Shoot sighters for come up data for 400
5. Finish Stage 4
6. Root beer and pizza for dinner. :)
7. Sign up to work the next event. O0
MaxOrd, that is great for non-precise shooting, if that is your thing...so be it. Think I mentioned that in the post. But....if one would like to become more precise....maybe heed the tips mentioned above.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on September 26, 2017, 11:18:13 AM
Or...
1. Zero at 25
2. Confirm far zero at 300 (200 for M1/M1A)
3. Shoot battlesight zero out to 300; no sight changes; let trajectory do the work
4. Shoot sighters for come up data for 400
5. Finish Stage 4
6. Root beer and pizza for dinner. :)
7. Sign up to work the next event. O0
This is how I was taught at my first KD and it was a lot of fun but frustrating at times not being as precise as I wanted. I did shoot Rifleman for it, barely... :) We have an instructor KD this weekend and I am zeroed at 100 and will be dialing my come ups for each stage.
Quote from: RaggedHole on September 26, 2017, 01:59:14 PM
This is how I was taught at my first KD and it was a lot of fun but frustrating at times not being as precise as I wanted. I did shoot Rifleman for it, barely... :) We have an instructor KD this weekend and I am zeroed at 100 and will be dialing my come ups for each stage.
Good on ya, sir!
Full disclosure - I teach both and don't require students to use one or the other because Liberty, yo.
That said, every Rifleman worth the title should understand and be able to apply Battlesight Zero should the need arise. It's foundational to Project Appleseed teaching.
RaggedHole, I'm sighted in at 100 as well, but DrRich has stated on the actual KD thread that he's going to to the battlesight method. I guess we'll see when we get there. I haven't done either yet, so I'll just roll with it.
Tim
Quote from: PaleRider on September 26, 2017, 05:31:59 PM
RaggedHole, I'm sighted in at 100 as well, but DrRich has stated on the actual KD thread that he's going to to the battlesight method. I guess we'll see when we get there. I haven't done either yet, so I'll just roll with it.
Tim
Come down six MOA and you'll be close to your 25m zero. :cool2:
That's actually about right. When I was zeroed at 25, I was about 5-6 inches high at 100.
Quote from: PaleRider on September 26, 2017, 05:31:59 PM
RaggedHole, I'm sighted in at 100 as well, but DrRich has stated on the actual KD thread that he's going to to the battlesight method. I guess we'll see when we get there. I haven't done either yet, so I'll just roll with it.
Tim
I saw that, hopefully we be able to choose the method that works best for us but either way I can roll with the punches :)
At our KD/UD's:
We initially sight in at 25 yards. We take into consideration service rifle type sights and scopes and teach accordingly.
Then we shoot at 300/BSZ. Then we go downrange and do the IMC to adjust POI.
It is not always centered for many reasons, but reasonably close.
Then we re-shoot again at 300 (after making any necessary IMC adjustments) to confirm that the 300 yard/BSZ is now centered.
Then we go back and shoot at 25 yards to see if our initial 25 yard zero changed.
Shooters often discover that their initial 25 yard zero may have changed a bit.
It may be a couple MOA hi or lo depending on rifle and load or conditions, shooter, etc.
Now, we record our new 25 yard zero for posterity. It is for that rifle and load in those conditions.
Now we have our new and official Near Zero/Far Zero for that rifle and load in those conditions.
Now if your sights go bump in the night while in the field, it is easier to check your near zero at 25 yards than at 300 yards.
For a 400 yard shot in the field at a bad guy Redcoat (with the aforementioned near zero/far zero) put the sights on the top of the head or on the top of the "D''s we shoot and you will drop it in the V most of the time and nearly always in the black.
For 100/200 yard stages the differences are for the most part, purely conversational.
We have proven all this at our KD's over and over for 223/308/30/06 etc. class cartridges.
So now all our battle rifles can live on the 300 yard setting. And this works well with service rifle type sights.
And yes, as discussed above, the disclaimer is that this is for the generous standard of 4 MOA we teach that revolves around rack grade and ball ammo.
Sir, my colt A2 has a 5 power scope mounted to the fixed carry handle. That's 4.125 in. scope height. My BSZ for this rifle is 25/ 500. I understand the concept of BSZ but what I don't understand is why we should place so much emphasis on it. If you want to shoot steel targets with hold offs that's fine. However, I respectfully submit that a KD event should be run with full size targets, shot in the proper sequence and scored according to hits and misses using the 3-4-5 areas. Any other type of shoot doesn't deserve, IMO to be called a KD. Call it a primer on BSZ if you want to. Call it tactical BSZ perhaps. I personally don't care if the shooter next to me wants to use hold offs or if his equipment has the appropriate hold offs already figured for him. This is just me but, at an Appleseed we teach a primer on IMC. The KD, for me, is a way for the shooter to use those lessons learned and take them to the next level. You take the foundation and you build on it. Regardless of how these events are handled, I'm still going to go have fun. And by the way---Whittington is still on my bucket list. Regards :cool2:
Unless I get blacklisted :slap:
Quote from: PaleRider on September 26, 2017, 05:48:26 PM
That's actually about right. When I was zeroed at 25, I was about 5-6 inches high at 100.
Same here - at least that's what it seems to me. I'll concede though that it might be me.
Last few times I've had a chance to zero at 100 I was about 4 moa low at 25.
This is one of those things I hope we can talk about Friday night at the KD.
Now I've got a scope with the BDC for 556 that worked real well at the last WTF run in Waco. That was if I zeroed at 100 though.
What's really getting me is I'd downloaded the strelok app and the norma app. Both show if zeroed at 25 for the ammo ballistics I'd entered that at 100 it was only about 1.5 moa high. Now maybe might scope height prob isn't entered right. But seems about 4 to 6 inch high at 100 with a 25 zero has been my experience.
Scuzzy,
In the IM, under BSZ, for the typical M1A, calculations are made for 100 and 200 yards, assuming a 300 yard BSZ. The results given are 6 inches high at those distances. If the same calculations are made for the typical AR the results will be 4 inches high at those same distances. And that also assumes, for the typical AR, that 25m and 300 yards will have the same sight setting. Therefore, your results, and those of PaleRider are to be expected. And, of course, the exact values will depend on the individual rifles and their sights, and not necessarily the typical ones.
We are not preparing to deploy to a war zone, or are we? LOL
If we were/are, BSZ is great!
But....we are not.
So, why not get more precise. The "standard" comeups, BSZ stuff is "close enough" most times. But, that is taking into account using a standard as issued military rifle, and military ammo. Rarely will a KD line see the same rifles on the line, barrel lengths, twist rates, and ammo choices.
BSZ is a great concept, it is FAST and easy.
Accuracy and Precision requires more detailed thought, refined zeros and mastery of the fundamentals.
I would rather go for accuracy and precision over...."It hit the big black area...."
R/
Chris
Thanks, dond! I look forward to meeting you in November!
Tim