I recently earned my Rifleman patch and now want to attend a KD event. I'm hoping I can make the one coming up in Oct at the Talladega CMP. The question is I'm not sure which Rifle I want to take. The question really comes down to ammo for me. Both rifles at scoped 16" carbines with the same free float rail setup. One is chambered in 6.5 Grendel and one is chambered in 223/556. I'm not sure what ammunition I would be allowed to use and what would give me me the bet chance to maximize my potential. I don't reload so I rely on factory ammunition.
Rifle #1
16" 223/556 carbine. simple 1-4x24 scope setup. I normally shoot 55gr XM193 from Federal that comes in the nice little ammo box on stripper clips. From a sand bag supporting the muzzle I can normally get groups around 2.5-3MOA at 100 yards. MaximumOrdinate mentioned that the steel core ammo might not be allowed for the Appleseed event. Not a big deal I can buy some ammo. Do I stick with 55gr or try to find some inexpensive non-steel core 62gr and re-zero my rifle? New ammo would mean I have no idea how the rifle will behave and would have to test. Hoping to keep ammo costs less than $0.40/round
Rifle #2
16" 6.5 Grendel carbine. 4-12x44 scope isn't ideal I don't think. I normally shoot Hornady 123gr SST when I'm shooting at stuff that isn't paper but at over $1/shot that's a little out of my budget to shoot at paper or steel. Only low cost option less than $0.90/round is Wolf 100gr steel case with a copper washed bimetal jacket. Does the CMP allow the use of Bimetal jackets? Didn't see anything on their web page about restrictions other than caliber restrictions. Wolf shoots pretty good out of my 16" carbine. 95% of the shots will be in a 2" circle at 100 yards but every now and then it will spit one way off target.
3 shots at 50 were sighting in the scope to make sure it was on paper. Adjusted the scope then moved out to 100. This was off a Lead Sled to take me out of the equation.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5624/30573861721_ce39aacda3_z.jpg)
So the Grendel would be cheaper to operate if Bimetal jackets are allowed and be less effected by the wind. But with the cheap wolf ammo that occasional flyer comes more into play at least in my experience so far. Since I haven't attended a KD even I'm not sure how much the wind will play at the yardages we will be shooting that. ;D The 223/556 carbine will just be your normal cheap rack grade 3moa with bulk ammo. In your opinion which rifle should I start prepping for 3 position shooting?
M855 has a steel penetrator, but XM193 shouldn't (you can check with a magnet). I'd shoot that .223 with ball ammo and not give it a second thought for Appleseed KD. I used 69 grain Sierra Match King handloads since KD was a 5.5 hour drive, and I would have been ticked if a flyer had kept me from qualifying. Supposedly the IMI 69 and 77 gr loads are good if you want a better bullet, but I haven't shot them.
QuoteM855 has a steel penetrator, but XM193 shouldn't (you can check with a magnet)
You are right. I was thinking of some ammo have have marked SS109 :-[
If it's not a hassle and you are permitted to use the ammo from both rifles, I'd bring them both. Worst case, one stays in the car. However, I'd want to see if I could qualify with both rifles!
Good evening, Sir.
I'll be the Shoot Boss for that event. Recommend you bring both rifles so you have a backup. :)
If the choice was mine, I'd plan on using rifle #1 as my primary and #2 as a backup. Federal M193 ammo will get the job done. Whichever rifle you choose will be fine.
In the meantime, Dryfire in position several types a week. Concentrate and critique yourself with each shot. You'll be amazed at how much it helps. remember, it's the Indian, not the arrow. :)
I hope to see you in October!
v/r
MO
Take them both. Shoot the 5.56 with M193. It should be fine out to 600 yards. Beyond that, you'll need a bigger bullet. You didn't say what the barrel twist is. The 6.5 with the SST looks like a tack driver. Plan to shoot them both if you can. You'll zero and shoot AQTs at 100 yards in the morning, then move to 200-600 in the afternoon after lunch.
Talladega is the premier range in the country (until Spencer, TN comes on line, 1000 yards with the same electronic scoring as CMP Talladega), no going down range ^:)^ Lots of time for AQTs O0.
You won't want to pass up the opportunity to shoot both rifles.
Your .223/5.56 will do just fine for KD, but like the others have said, it won't hurt to bring both rifles. I shot a KD at Talladega a few weeks ago, using my 16" AR15 & cheap Wolf Gold ammo (brass case & traditional lead/copper 55gr bullet). I qualified Rifleman in the low to mid 40's. 40 out of 50 is a passing score, and any hit inside the scoring ring counts. I suck at reading & compensating for wind, so I didn't. My score was still good enough. :))
I'd use your 4-12 scope. You can always leave it at 4x without any problem, and dial it up if you feel the need. As long as the reticle design isn't something wacky that's going to get in the way, you'll be fine.
AIM Surplus is a good source for Wolf Gold. I've heard that Sportsman's Guide is good, too. You can look around & find the best deal with shipping & tax. A 1,000 round case of it is right at 30¢/round including shipping. You'll shoot about 250 rounds for a one-day KD; a little more for a 2-day. Maximum Ordinate can fill you in on that.
Enjoy it! You'll be spoiled by the electronic target system & really nice range that CMP Talladega has.
I'll share my experience qualifying at KD. Maybe it will help you, maybe it won't and you can dismiss it.
First KD event I brought a rack grade carbine with iron sights and 55 gr surplus ammo. I was told, and read everywhere, that the point is to shoot rack grade rifle and surplus ammo. And that's what I brought. In practice, my eyes probably aren't the best, and iron sights were a little difficult for me. But I was getting consistent 9's and 10's at the 100 yd, 9's and 10's at the 200 yd, 7's and 8's at the 300 yd, but things really opened up at the 400 yd line. I strugged to get a 4/10 in the last stage, and often hovered around a 2. One AQT I had 28/30 heading into the last round only to finish with a 29/40. The iron sights may have been challenging for me, but I found the light weight bullet really opened up my MPOA at the 400 yd range.
Inbetween my shoots, I switched to a scoped rifle (1-4x) and dry fire practiced religiously. I'm not a member of a rifle range, so I had nearly zero life fire practice with the scoped rifle going into my second KD. I decided to go with a heavier weight bullet. This time I went with the 77 gr IMI ammo.
For my second KD, the difference was like night and day. First full AQT I shot a 40/40. The heavier bullet really stabilized at the 400 yd line. It isn't cheap ammo, but considering the drive time and wait time between KD events, I'm glad I spent the extra cash (I ended up spending around $0.67 a round on it).
The scope helped. As did the dry fire practice, probably more than the change in ammo.
With enough practice, patience, and good wind (or lack there of) I know I could have qualified with my rack grade rifle and 55 gr ammo. But it would have taken me quite a bit of time to do so.
Couldn't help but think of this . . .
(http://www.troll.me/images/zoidberg-time/in-need-of-an-answer-why-not-both.jpg)
XM193 55 grain will get the job done for qualifying at KD in many 16-inch barreled AR-15 rifles, provided the barrel twist is right. 55 grain bullets work best in about a 1:9 twist. If your twist is much faster, say 1:7, then heavier bullets will group much better.
In my 1:9 twist 16-inch AR-15, groups with XM193 are noticeably better than groups with XM855. With my rifle, the 62 grain XM855 are just OK at 100, 200, 300 yards, but really fall apart at 400 yards.
But, in my rifle, XM193 55 grain bullets group well over 100-400 yards.
So, it really depends on your twist. Slower twists will do better with 55 grain 5.56 bullets, and faster twists will do better with heavier bullets.
I attended my first KD using XM855 62 grain bullets and saw my groups degrade at longer distances and fall apart at 400 yards, while looking good at 25 meters. Switching to XM193 55 grain bullets, my groups were pretty much the same in MOA at all distances. Twist matters when selecting bullets, much more than I would have believed.
--gb
QuoteSo, it really depends on your twist. Slower twists will do better with 55 grain 5.56 bullets, and faster twists will do better with heavier bullets.
Funny you should mention that. My dad and I went and sighted in our rifles at 25m this weekend. We were both shooting 55gr, mine were Federal XM193 and his was PMC. I never shoot at paper with my AR as I normally shoot at a 2/3 sized steel IDPA AR500 steel silhouettes or 4" octagon steel targets with the cheap bulk ammo. Most of my paper punching is with rimfire and my 22 and 17hmr will punch out the middle of a 1" hole. Everything I read expected 3MOA +/- with XM193. After sighting in at 25m I shot 4 different groups at the 25m mark and the average of the 4 groups was 3.04 x 2.96 MOA. Moved it back to 100 yards and got pretty much the same thing with 10 shots. This was shot off a lead sled with a 1-4x24 scope @ 4x to take as much of me out of the equation. Everything fit within a 2.7" x 3" box. I know it's the ~3moa I should have expected but 3MOA looks horrible when you put it on a gridded target ;D
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/37060522970_33da31d65c_c.jpg)
My dad's rifle we only shot at 25m. His rifle is a $299 slickside Palmetto State Armory kit we bought and built a couple of years ago. $299 for a rifle kit a couple of years ago is unheard of and even today I'm not sure I've seen a rifle kit that cheap. We never expected it to be a high end shooter. His rifle has a 1:9 twist and he put up these groups from the lead sled while sighting in his rifle.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36607258774_f85eaf359e_z.jpg)
His groups were easily 1/2 the size of mine. I tried the PMC and it didn't group any better than the XM193 for me. My rifle was a 1:7 twist. I'm debating whether to just go with the XM193 I have or see if I can find different ammo. I had some brass cased Fiocchi 55gr that got me around 2-2.5moa but but the group was clustered about a center compared to the XM193 which seems to make a ring around a center.
I decided against taking the Grendel AR. After shooting it prone a couple of times the cheap Wolf ammo makes so much smoke it's hard to see between shots in prone without letting the smoke dissipate for a couple of seconds. That would make shooting rapid prone tough!
The whole time writing out my last post had me thinking of Maximum Ordinate's saying "Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough" :))
DeoreDx,
Your target above that you are saying is a 3 MOA group, I think is significantly larger than that.
On that target, if shot at 100 yards, one square is 1 MOA. The center diamond would equal 4 MOA.
Just my observation, if you were in fact shooting at 100 yards.
That would not bode well for you at 400 yards.
R/
Chris
Another suggestion.
Using a lead sled, with a properly secured rifle, and excellent trigger control is a great way to measure accuracy from a rifle/load.
However, it is probably the worst way to get a reliable zero at a specified distance for 3 position shooting.
Once you find a round/load that performs (while using lead sled if you want to do that)....then get slung up and zero from the position you will be shooting.
I used to zero at 200 yards from prone. That is fine and will have you on the target. But I shoot standing at 200 yards, not prone. Only standing and seated. Guess what? My zero for standing is 1.5 MOA up from my prone zero at 200. My seated zero is 1/2 MOA up.
Positions will at some point, require one to have different zeros, if shooting for precision.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on September 26, 2017, 09:08:10 AM
DeoreDx,
Your target above that you are saying is a 3 MOA group, I think is significantly larger than that.
On that target, if shot at 100 yards, one square is 1 MOA. The center diamond would equal 4 MOA.
Just my observation, if you were in fact shooting at 100 yards.
That would not bode well for you at 400 yards.
R/
Chris
I took the time to calculate the mean radius and got 1.37". Farthest hole to farthest hole was 3.5".
I also shot some Perfecta 223. I only had 100 rounds of it so I wasn't considering it for the KD but it performed more acceptably. There was a more defined center to the group unlike the XM193 which you could draw a 1" circle around the mathematical center of the group had zero bullet holes within that circle. Extreme spread was 3.6" but the mean radius I calculated to be 0.98". Most (7/10) shots were in a 1.5" square with 3 fliers outside of that square.
Checked the barrel torque and scope mount torque and everything is still tight. Guess my rifle just really hates XM193.
Noticed some rub marks on the left side of my gas block where the free float hand guard has been rubbing the low profile gas block. Looked inside the hand guard and there is a spot where the channel the top of the lo-pro gas block rests where it wasn't machined correctly so the left side of the channel has more material and therefor hits the gas block when the hand guard is flexed. Maybe the extra impulse of the 556 coupled with the strap that runs over the top of the hand guard locking the barrel in place is causing enough contact to really throw the group off giving me that grapeshot like group.
That would cause some stress to the barrel when slung up that can cause POA/POI issues.
But...that leads me to think you do not have a stout rail. Here is what I am referring to...., on these free float rails...dependent on the manufacturer, you will get a barrel nut that could be 3 inches wide, or 1 inch wide....or anything in between. The quad rail should NOT flex so much that it is rubbing on anything when slung up tight.
What manufacturer of rail is it?
Giessele MK7 rail is phenomenal, and also phenomenally expensive. I am using a Yankee Hill setup, and that is decently priced. About 1/2 the cost of the Giessele.
XM(anything) is never the "best" choice for precision. Sure it works...but is it Lake City XM193? Anything manufactured for the military that is now in civilian hands or in the civilian market for sale, was rejected by the military for some reason. Keep that in mind. Some lots of XM193 may perform significantly better than others.
If I come off as anti-XM anything....It is because I truly am ANTI XM anything! LOL
Sounds like your tracking to a solution to tighten the groups up!
R/
Chris
DeoreDx,
I have an as issued M16, minus the 3 rd burst. Pencil as issued colt barrel, 20 inches...tough to find.
I have used that rifle in the CMP's "Modern Military Rifle Match", where the rifle barrel cannot be free floated, as issued is the name of that game.
It shoots well. I shoot 77 grain handloaded bullets thru it. But, being that it is not free floated, I do stress the barrel some when slung up tight. It will still hold 1.5 MOA, even when slung up tight.
Another example/plug to get your zero in position. Were I to bench zero that rifle, it would be a significantly different zero when slung, due to the stress on the barrel.
FWIW
R/
Chris