I have been a huge fan of the 30 caliber type firearms for a long time. I favor the intermediate powered choices and this is why I have always been a fan of the 7.62x39. I was recently at a Gander Mountain that was going through the store closure clearance sale and stumbled upon some Hornady 300 Blackout brass for 70% off. The package of brass kept jumping in my cart. I tried to put it back a few times but it kept jumping in my cart so I decided to buy it and load them.
For those that have not heard of this caliber before, here is a little history here about the 300 Blackout. The 300 Blackout was developed by Advanced Armament Corporation to be a 30 caliber round of intermediate power for the AR-15. The round late was certified by SAAMI, (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute). This SAAMI standardized the round to allow other gun makers to manufacture firearms in this caliber. You can load any .308 caliber bullet in it. The heavy 220 grain rounds are used for suppressed subsonic loads and the lighter 120 grain rounds for super sonic loads.
The 300 Blackout uses the 5.56x45 as the parent case which is what makes the 300 Blackout so attractive. This allows it to use the same parts that you use in your standard AR-15. You only need install a 300 Blackout barrel in any standard AR-15 to use this caliber. In my case, I am a big believer in dedicated uppers and simply bought a CMMG 300 Blackout upper from an internet retailer. You simply remove 2 pins and swap the uppers. This caliber uses the same magazines which means you have to be cognizant of what you have loading in your magazine. You don't want to get these two calibers swapped to the wrong barrel size.
300 Blackout is not cheap unless you get lucky like I did at a store closure sale. You can however turn your trash brass from the 5.56x45 into brass for the 300 Blackout. Not all brass if good for doing this because the brass is too thick and you can't seat a .308 bullet in correctly. I can't fact check it, but other internet sites state that Lake City and Federal cases are ok to use and I have plenty of that stuff on hand.
First Picture is of the starting 5.56x45 Case next to the final case and final loaded round. The 300 Blackout looks very similar to a 7.62x39 in terms of bullet to case size.
You next need to cut the old shoulder off of the case by cutting it down in length. Don't worry about being perfect here because you will later put it in the press and it will elongate a bit during that process. I used a cheap 2" electric saw from Harbor Freight. You just have to remember that you can't cut it longer if you make the first cut too short. Notice the placement of the extraction grove in the picture to the jig. This is where I line up the brass that I am cutting and it has always worked.
The third picture is a side view of the case in the saw.
The 4th picture is the cut brass in the saw. The old shoulder is gone and you are left with a straight walled brass.
If you cut it correctly, you end up with a straight walled piece of brass about 1.380" long which is perfect because, as I stated before, you can't fix it if you cut too much off of the brass.
Next, you toss the cut brass in the press with a 300 Blackout die. Your goal is to make a new shoulder at the proper place on the brass. The case will need a final trim to the correct specifications.
Notice how I gained a bit of length on the case after pressing it. It went from a 1.380" long case to 1.388" after the press.
Toss the case in the trimming tool and crank on it until the blades stop cutting. I set this tool up to cut the brass down to about 1.358". The maximum length for a 300 Blackout case is 1.368". My reloading manual does not have a minimum but SAAMI has the shortest allowed to be 1.348" long.
After the trim, you want to debur the inside and outside of the case.
The final product is a case that is ready to be cleaned, primed, and loaded with a .308 caliber round.
Nice write-up and pictures... thank you. :)
I've finally dialed in a decent subsonic load for my .300 blk. It's a joy to shoot.
Have you tried annealing at home?
Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on August 20, 2017, 10:35:33 AM
Nice write-up and pictures... thank you. :)
I've finally dialed in a decent subsonic load for my .300 blk. It's a joy to shoot.
Have you tried annealing at home?
Yes I have tried annealing at home. I heat up the brass with a torch and then quench it in water. I use a pair of pliers to turn the neck in the flame over about 6 seconds before tossing it in the water.
I am not sure how well it works but there is a change in color.
Just a little follow up here on my 300 Blackout project.
I received my CMMG upper and Mbus Pro sights this week and took my "Lake City" brass ammo out to the range with several different loads. I was using the "Hornady Handbook Cartridge Reloading" manual 9th edition to work up my loads and basically made several batches of 300 BO. I used 150 grain FMJBT, 150 grain Sp and 165 grain SP with different loads of powder. The powder that I used was an Accurate 1680. All brass that I made with the "Lake City" 5.56x45 worked perfectly and I did not have a single malfunction on day one. The rounds were loaded with a COL of 2.220" along with a roll crimp. I was able to get very tight groups at 100 yards once I sighted the rifle in and they were about 8" high with a 30 yard zero.
I screwed up bad on the night between day 1 and day 2. I converted 100 brass cases of Prefecta 223 to 300 Blackout based on it being on the "good brass" list. I also changed over to revision 10 of my reloading manual and seated the FMJBT bullets at 2.100". The rounds will not chamber! I now have a batch of no good ammo that I will either have to pull apart or find a barrel with looser tolerances. The "Lake City" brass used on day 1 was reloaded and all worked on day 2. I did not use a case gauge to test these "Prefecta" brass rounds.
Lessons to take away from this are; use only "Lake City" brass, change only 1 variable at a time, and only load 10 experimental loads for testing before making more.
I am no expert on the 7.62x39 or 300 Blackout. I do however own rifles that can shoot them. I own an old Yugo SKS and the CMMG Mutant rifle for the 7.62x39 and a CMMG 300 Blackout upper for the AR-15. Picking a winner between the two is simply not possible. They have more differences than similarities.
Pros of the 7.62x39:
-Ammo is cheap and plentiful (you can buy 40 rounds of Tulammo for $10 at Walmart)
-The case can hold more powder and thus achieves a higher muzzle velocity
-The typical factory loads from Russia seem to be "hotter" than American made ammo. This was part of the reason that I had popped primers in my SKS that were gumming up the bolt/firing pin. I sent it to a guy in Texas to ream the chamber and that seems to have fixed the issues.
Cons of the 7.62x39:
-Bolt Hold Open not available in the Mutant or Ak-47 derivatives
-bullet selection is limited.......not much else.
Pros of the 300 Blackout:
-Intermediate power .308 caliber round that can be fired from an AR-15 with the correct barrel
-The magazines used for the 5.56x45 in the AR-15 can also be used for loading the 300 BO (this can also be a con which will be described below)
-broad range of ammo flavors. You can load up 110 grain rounds used in the 30 Carbine all the way to 220 grain subsonic loads
-I don't own a suppressor but it appears that the subsonic versions of round is very popular with suppressor owners
- AR-15 operates in the same exact way as the 5.56x45
- Can be reloaded easily and you can make your own brass
- I do think that the American made ammo or reloaded ammo is more consistent and thus achieves more precision when shooting
Cons of 300 Blackout:
-Less muzzle velocity than the standard 7.62x39
-Expensive factory ammo
For people that don't have the tools or the desire to reload, the 7.62x39 is probably a better fit.
For the people that have the tools and the desire to reload, the 300 Blackout is probably a better fit.
You will likely not notice a difference in performance between the two.
My answer for which one I like best is not so easy. Variables on the situation would dictate which one I would want. If I am going on a road trip with a rifle and don't have the ability to reload, the Mutant is my rifle of choice. You can't beat getting cheap factory ammo for $0.25 a round. If I am at home and can have access to my tools, my choice would be the 300 BO.
I've been using LC converted brass and Nosler 220g Custom Competition, loaded to magazine length per Nosler recommendations.
My most accurate load has been 10.0 grains of Winchester 296. I'm getting about 1.5 MOA at 100 yards, suppressed. My .30 cal baffles still need some work on the clips. I think I can tighten that up and improve suppression.
To anyone reading... do responsible load development when reloading for *your* rifle. :)
MT - what dies are you using? I've been very happy with my Forster dies, especially their seating die.
I am using Hornady 300 AAC dies. This is a full length resizer. I can't visually see any difference between the factory, LC or Prefecta brass. My caliper measurements are no different between all three of them. The only thing that I can't measure would be the shoulder. I need a case gauge for that.
I am in agreement with the lower power loads. The 300 BO is a pleasure to shoot in the moderate range loads. I loaded up some 150 grain rounds with 17 grains of the Accurate 1680. WOW! What a pleasure to shoot. This load has between 1600 and 1700 fps and was barely noticed in the recoil. I have been known to burn 240 plus rounds of Tulammo in my Mutant rifle in one trip and that leaves a mark. You could shoot these low power loads all day and never feel a thing or get a bruise.
Steer clear of the factory loads. I have a box of 20 rounds loaded with 120 grain FMJ bullets that cost me $15 at Walmart. If you reload these yourself, you can buy cheap Hornady 150 grain FMJBT bullets in a 500 bullet box for about $120 and a box of 1000 small rifle primers for about $31. The costs per load are about $0.34 per round. I am not including the price of the case because you can either make that or buy actual brass that can be loaded many times.
The 300 BO case capacity does not allow for you to get much above 36,000 psi if you use the powders listed in the manual and thus the brass lasts for a very long time. I am not also factoring in your time because I reload for fun and not for a living.
I am not sure if this a rifle thing or an ammo thing. My brass deflector has a nice brass polish on it and the spent cases all have a dent in the mouth. The dent makes it look like a "D" from above. The resizer got it all out and it might be an issue for multiple uses. I am not sure how many times that case can be resized before cracking.
Update:
I bought a Lymans case gauge and all of my ammo fits inside the gauge. Most will fall out without help when I invert the gauge. My brass is all to "spec".
I then experimented with my ammo by marking it with a marker and attempting to chamber it. The shoulder area of the brass is what is causing my issues. I think that the original rounds were seated to make an overall length of 2.220". The 2nd round were to 2.100". The differences with seating depths have to do with the two revisions of the Hornady reloading manual. The bullets are slightly wider than the neck and seating them deeper may have pushed the shoulder area out a bit.
I checked to see if my factory ammo would chamber. It does but the extraction is difficult.
I think that I just have a tight chamber and that is the cause of my issues. This is both good and bad. Good because it will be a straight shooter. Bad because it may cause headaches like this.
I polished the shoulders of the ammo with fine grit sand paper. That solved my issues. The ammo will now chamber and extract as I would expect it to.
Despite these headaches, I do think this caliber is worth the trouble. 300 Blackout is not cheap to buy from the factory. It is however cheap to make if you convert old 5.56x45 brass over to the 300 BO and load it with cheap bullets. I was able to pick up a 500 round box of those Zombie max from Hornady for $129.99. They are 150 grains and have the weird greed colored poly tips. This is about $0.26 per bullet. The build costs of the materials(primer, powder, bullet) come out to be $0.36 per round.
if you know anyone with a 3D printer you can print a jig, several placed online also sell them. it works with the harbor freight saw.
I have been working with CFE-BLK the new as of January Hogdon powder designed around the 300 so far supers looking prommising using 110gr v-max bullets not as good with the speer hot core
even lower pressure for good velocity in supers and made to work for subs also.
Quote from: TrapperPete on August 28, 2017, 09:26:04 PM
if you know anyone with a 3D printer you can print a jig, several placed online also sell them. it works with the harbor freight saw.
I have been working with CFE-BLK the new as of January Hogdon powder designed around the 300 so far supers looking prommising using 110gr v-max bullets not as good with the speer hot core
even lower pressure for good velocity in supers and made to work for subs also.
I saw this style jig when I first embarked down this path and like it. I am not sure if I want this or to build an automated saw system that has a rotating drum that feeds the cases past the saw blade.
I bet that jig would save me some time. I think the best time savings for me would be to get the first cut to the proper length that will allow the case to be stretched to the proper length in the resizing die. Trimming the case down took the most time.
I am also trying to track down why my .223 brass is sizing correctly to my case gauge but not chambering correctly in my rifle. Extracting the rounds from the rifle is the most difficult part right now.
I am going to build some new loads this weekend. I bought some 125 grain FMJ bullets to get the approximate load for the 7.62x39. I have so far only made 150 grain and 165 grain rounds.
The max powder charge that I used was 22.5 grains of the Accurate 1680. I did buy some of the Hogdson CFE-BLK powder when my Accurate 1680 was all gone. Honestly, I can't see any difference between the two. The Hornady manual does not list it but I found the recipes on the Hogdson website. The max charge rounds kicked considerably more than the 17 grain loads even though there was only a small amount more of charge.
I also bought some Hornady Zombie max bullets. They are the 150 grain green polymer tipped stuff. It was listed as $179 on the tag at Cabelas for 500 rounds but it was on sale for $129.99. I bought the last two boxes in the store. What I am now wondering is if this was the zombie crap from 2012. Not that I care because bullets should not go bad, I would be amazed if this stuff survived 5 years on the self.
My next plan will probably involve a Bushmaster 450. I would rather go with the .458" diameter bullets but I have not seen a Government 45-70 for an AR online that I would trust. That SOCOM round is a no go for me because it has a neck and the cases are expensive. Hornady at least makes a "rifle" bullet in .452" for the BM250. This is good because I would be stuck with the pistol bullets without it.
Your problem with the shoulder might be springback.
Brass tends to spring back when sized. An accurate measuring tool is real use full.
I have been down the road you are treading and made 300 bo brass by:
Cut the brass.
Anneal.
Size with standard die.
Trim.
Ream the inside of the neck with a .308 reamer.
Resize.
MT, if you're having concerns about your chamber being cut too tight for factory ammo, you have two choices:
1. invest in a set of GO/NOGO gauges
2. return the barrel or upper to have it checked
SAAMI specs exist for a reason. It's good to be inside of them.
Personally, I'd go with #2. Most reputable manufacturers shouldn't have an issue checking your chamber.
Good luck,
MO
if I get the brass cut to the right length and sized I use the Lee quick trim die and power trim cutter in my drill driver to bring them down to length quick , this seems to work for me. and cutting is really only one extra process over reloading 223 and that is just the first time.
my brass deflector does have a brass line on it , I think that with the pistol length gas system it is a bit over gassed on supers , but that doesn't seem to be hurting anything.
running CFE-BLK and a max load with the 110gr v-max bullets are only 36,000psi I am not running a max load so probably closer to 32,000 psi you just can't stuff any more in the case than max
one of my next tasks is to try my own cast bullets in the 300 that will be truly cheap shooting.
Quote from: TrapperPete on August 30, 2017, 12:34:46 AM
if I get the brass cut to the right length and sized I use the Lee quick trim die and power trim cutter in my drill driver to bring them down to length quick , this seems to work for me. and cutting is really only one extra process over reloading 223 and that is just the first time.
my brass deflector does have a brass line on it , I think that with the pistol length gas system it is a bit over gassed on supers , but that doesn't seem to be hurting anything.
running CFE-BLK and a max load with the 110gr v-max bullets are only 36,000psi I am not running a max load so probably closer to 32,000 psi you just can't stuff any more in the case than max
one of my next tasks is to try my own cast bullets in the 300 that will be truly cheap shooting.
I saw some interesting bullets made on the internet by people casting their own .308s. One guy I saw is making them 0.306" in diameter and powder coating them to the .308" diameter. I once saw a press that converted .22 LR brass into .223 jackets. I bet you could do the same for a soft point 300 AAC.
I agree with the part about not having enough case capacity to over load a 300 AAC. I was a bit skeptical at first when I loaded my first "max charge" load. The bullet did however seat to the COL spec. I am sure that the charge was a bit compressed. I am also a bit surprised that they did not push the max pressure higher considering most modern guns can handle the pressure.
harbor freight is having a 25% off sale Labor day Monday getting the little 2 inch chop saw down to 26.42 and a jig that should cost you 10 dollars or less I think my brother said the cost to print mine was 38 cents and your turning out a new cut down piece about every 5 seconds because the jig is set up so that you leave the blade running and jig to the right of the blade where you can easily put the piece in and take it out and do the next one .
it takes longer to sort by head stamp than it does to cut it down.
It is possible to over pressure the 300 with some of the faster powders, and heavy weight bullets.
And any bullet with some of the fastest burning powders.
Quote from: Mark Davis on August 31, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
It is possible to over pressure the 300 with some of the faster powders, and heavy weight bullets.
And any bullet with some of the fastest burning powders.
it is , and I was not saying any powder and projectile , but CFE-BLK and 110gr v-max the starting load is compressed as is the max load and the pressure is still quite low 36Kpsi at max that you can still seat the bullet in a gun built to take 50K psi
I stopped by Cabelas in Gary Indiana on my way home from Chicago. I was able to find a Hornady case gauge that is of my higher quality. Instead of an aluminum block like the Lymans product, the Hornady case gauge is made of hard steel. Anything that fits in this gauge will fit in the CMMG rifle.
I also experimented today with my press and forming die. I used a "new" cut brass and threaded my die in as far as I could with the press in the full up position. I also polished the H16 case holder to allow the die to thread even lower. I was able to get a consistent but snug fit with each pressed case. I have the die locked in place in the die bushing with the nut.
I can now form the shoulder at the perfect spot to fit in the chamber while also being "snug". By snug I mean that I can push the case in the gauge with a slight push from my finger and get it out by tapping the edge of the case gauge on the table with it upside down.
I also bought up some more of that old Zombie max stuff from 2012. I bought 500 rounds for 129.99. I also used my coupon from last week to get an additional 10% off for spending more than $100. These bullets cost me about $0.23 a piece. That is not a bad price for a 168 grain poly tipped bullet. I have fired a few but I have not tested them on a water jug to see how well it expands.
Quote from: TrapperPete on September 02, 2017, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: Mark Davis on August 31, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
It is possible to over pressure the 300 with some of the faster powders, and heavy weight bullets.
And any bullet with some of the fastest burning powders.
it is , and I was not saying any powder and projectile , but CFE-BLK and 110gr v-max the starting load is compressed as is the max load and the pressure is still quite low 36Kpsi at max that you can still seat the bullet in a gun built to take 50K psi
I was worried about "speed readers" getting the wrong idea.
Mutant Texan, that case gauge is a good investment.
Quote from: Mark Davis on September 03, 2017, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: TrapperPete on September 02, 2017, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: Mark Davis on August 31, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
It is possible to over pressure the 300 with some of the faster powders, and heavy weight bullets.
And any bullet with some of the fastest burning powders.
it is , and I was not saying any powder and projectile , but CFE-BLK and 110gr v-max the starting load is compressed as is the max load and the pressure is still quite low 36Kpsi at max that you can still seat the bullet in a gun built to take 50K psi
I was worried about "speed readers" getting the wrong idea.
Mutant Texan, that case gauge is a good investment.
I bought Hornady reloading equipment and it has always served me well. That Lymans case gauge was junk.
I cranked out another 300 cases of brass today. I am not looking at the head stamp at this time. I plan to finish processing the brass on a large scale and then turn to my saved LC stuff later. One thing that I am running into now is that my previously made LC brass primer pockets are getting loose. Some are even able to free fall out of the primer pockets. I am not sure if the brass can be salvaged or if it has to be retired. I was able to get about 4 uses out of each piece and I am happy about that.
I was able to make a wooded jig for my Harbor Freight saw. I am zipping out cases about 1.380" long before I press them. I am rubbing the case mouth on a rag that has a bit of transmission fluid on it before pressing it in the die to form the new neck. I then toss them in a hot solution of water and dawn soap and let them soak for about an hour before setting them out in the free but effective dryer in the sky. Unfortunately for me, my case dryer is getting less and less effective as the day gets long and soon it will disappear below the horizon.
My last step is to trim the cases to 1.358". I will sort the stuff by headstamp and divide the good to use stuff now from the stuff that I need to ream.
One thing that I am disappointed in are my bullet options in the 110 to 125 grain range at the retail stores that I have visited. I have been to the Cabelas in Cleveland, OH, Indianapolis, IN, and Gary, IN. I have a box of 125 grain Hornady poly tipped bullets but they were not cheap. They were about $30 for 100 bullets. I can pick up a box of 500 150 grain FMJBT for less than a $92 at Cabelas. I was able to get a few of them with a Labor Day 10% discount coupon. That is about $0.165 a round. The whole purpose of going with these rounds are to work up something of similar performance to the 7.62x39 which is still one of my favorite rounds.
On another note, I was at my local range again today and shot beside a buy with a bolt action .223 with a suppressor on the end. He had some subsonic loads and all I can say is "wow!". When things settle down for me, I will look at getting both a SBR tax stamp for one of my AR-15 lowers and to get a tax stamp for a .30 suppressor. You can probably see where I am going with this and the 300 Blackout. I have seen some nice pistol uppers for 300 BO pistols. Putting one of them on a rifle lower (once I have the SBR paper work) along with a can would make for some fun shooting.
I am also looking at ways to use the old .223 brass shoulders. It would be nice to turn them into a jacket and then cast bullets to go inside these small pieces of brass.
Do you read this? http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?41-Swaging
There has been some discussion of using .223 case shoulders for jackets in 9mm/.357.
Could not find the right thread and give you a direct link to the subject.
The guys posting are making bullets from a variety of materials, and usually pretty helpful.
I have been reloading for almost a year now and I have gained a lot of valuable lessons from the school of hard knocks. I will list a few of the key important items.
1) If you want the best 300 AAC cases, use only Lake City brass or the American Eagle brass. I have successfully used other brands but they all seem to give me trouble in varying degrees. DO NOT bother trying to use the Sellier bellot because you will only get frustration and sadness. I could not work any of their 5.56 brass into a usable 300 aac case.
2) Making these cases takes a lot of time and hard work to make. Each case you make is a small investment of time that you don't want to waste. The cases don't grow in length by my measurements and will likely handle reloads.
Do not use a swage tool to clean the primer pockets if you plan on multiple reloads. I have found that it is better instead to use a CCI 450 Magnum Rifle primer on the first load and then move to the CCI 400 primers for all subsequent loads. The reason for this is simple. CCI 450 primers are 0.1750" wide and the CCI 400 primers are 0.1753" wide. You have to swage the primer pocket to use a CC 400 on the first loading. The case will be useless after 5-6 uses because the primer pocket will have grown too large to hold a primer. If you instead put the CCI 450 primer in on the first load, you don't need to swage the pocket which saves you time. The primer pocket will get work hardened and expand slightly to the point that a CCI 400 will go in with little effort yet hold it snug.
3) Get a good quality case gauge. I like the Hornady case gauges because they are made of a hard steel and has never passed a case that failed to chamber.
4) Trim the cases to 1.358" if possible when you make the brass. If you go a little under it is ok. If it is a bit longer it will likely be fine. You just don't want to have a case that is too large to fit in the chamber correctly or too short that the neck tension on the bullet is too weak. This 300 AAC brass does not appear to "grow" like the Winchester .308 or the .30-06 brass that I also hand load. If you trim the 300 AAC case to the correct 1.358" the first time, you will have the ability to load a large variety of loads and never have to worry about it being to short or long. I have never had to go back and trim 300 AAC brass after firing it.
5) power tools are your friend. I have a hand trimmer and it works well. It does however get old quick when trimming several dozen cases.