So,
I posted in here under a topic called "Relax, it is a fundamental".
I mentioned that elbow pads are undesirable for me. Why?
Because the elbow pad, dependent on the design, can definitely act as a pivot point and a not so stable prone position.
Additionally, elbow pads, can also force an incorrect/unstable position, by having the wearer use the elbow bone as a pivot point.
I set my support arm down, and am on the meat behind the elbow bone, the elbow bone/joint is not on the deck.
I accomplish this by forcibly extending my support arm forward and then inverting/moving the arm in towards the other arm. This ensures my support arm is a flat stable foundation for the rest of the position, and it also forces me to get the support arm more in line (under) the rifle. It works well for me.
Being on my elbow joint did not work so well for me.
So, if we are not on the joint of the elbow in prone, what is the need for elbow pads?
Since the topic is prone SHF's, here is what I do.
- I line my mat up at a very slight angle to the target, it is not 30 degrees, more like 5-10 degrees and I seem to be getting more and more straight on to the target. It has been working well.
-Drop to my knees on my mat
-Ensure ear protection is in
- Put shooting glove on support hand *glove protects the hand from my sling, and also helps reduce pulse, it also forces an OPEN hand/cradling position*
- Apply the 1907 sling to my support arm, while on my knees, muzzle is up and cradled by my trigger arm. Apply sling to the exact same spot, high on bicep, and I adjust sling so the keepers are centered on my bicep.
** The sling is tight. This is where a sweatshirt is a good thing to have, to help protect the arm from the sling. For those wearing shooting coats, the coat protects the arm from the sling, and also reduces the pulse.**
- lay on belly, and roll to my support side
- Extend my support arm FWD and invert it in towards my trigger arm *this gets the support arm under the rifle*
- Using trigger hand palm, I drive the buttstock FWD, and lift it up into my shoulder (I am still rolled on my support side)
- Extend my trigger hand out and then bring it back in and establish my grip, HIGH on the grip and tight on the grip
- I now roll down onto my belly and let my trigger elbow lie naturally
- I draw my trigger knee up and keep my calf parallel to the barrel
- Ensure I am not on my toes for my feet
After the above I am ready to refine my NPOA. Eyes closed, wiggle barrel a little, breath, open eyes at the resp pause. Adjust as needed for windage rotating around the support arm.
For elevation, one can draw trigger knee up or down some, or move support hand on the rifle forearm (*least desirable method*....in fact I would say do not do that, it is preferred to have that support hand in the same exact spot for each shot*). For slow prone, my support hand is right up against the swivel
Another way to adjust for elevation, is to use the abdomen and thighs....and stretch a little (like an inch worm or caterpillar), I have found that way more precise and solid to adjust for elevation.
In prep I dry fire, and make sure I am on my targets X ring, and not disturbing sight alignment during the trigger squeeze and follow thru.
After my first shot, live fire, with recoil, I really pay attention to my shot call versus the actual. Because my position may have slipped, or I may have had some tension I was unaware of and need to adjust again.
Once it is there, and I am shooting solid X's and 10's, I do not break the position.
Wonder what your thoughts on the above are?
R/
Chris
On the elbow pads/soreness....
I totally GET it. The coat helps, but I still get a little raw behind the elbow.
I wear a sweatshirt when shooting rimfire sporter matches. I believe the rules allow one to wear 2. There is a reason for that, the "rawness" one can experience.
With a decent padded mat, and a sweatshirt I have had no issues. With one exception. It is EASY to get the shirt wrapped up when tightening the sling, so be aware of that. I realized this at my last Sporter match, and it was a pain to loossen up the 1907 sling!
One has to ask themselves (or not) do I want to score higher? If you are wearing elbow pads, you may want to consider ditching them and trying it without. For Appleseed, coats are legal. Now I am not suggesting everyone go out and by Creedmoor Hardbacks, but there are other options.
Sweatshirts
or a USMC style old school shooting jacket. Those come with pads for the elbow/arm.
Ya have to get off the ball of the elbow and on the flat meat behind it, if at all possible.
Those compression type sleeves would also likely work. Or a stretchy neoprene type material in an elbow brace would also work. Just nothing that would act like a ball joint or pivot point.
The goal in prone is to have the sling provide maximum stability to the rifle, and if one is on the elbow joint, this will not be "maximum stability".
Nuff from me on this for now.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on July 24, 2017, 08:42:58 AM
elbow pad, dependent on the design, can definitely act as a pivot point and a not so stable prone position.
So, if we are not on the joint of the elbow in prone, what is the need for elbow pads?
Solidly agree with most of this - hardshell or large pads are not useful at all. That said, I tend to wear a pair of thin neoprene pads if I am wearing short sleeves (think they are Blackhawks). I'm in Alabama, so that's most days.
When I get to transitional stages, my goal is to get down into NPOA as fast as humanly possible to minimize time to first shot. I have the god-given grace of a potato sack, and it's all forearms and elbows. I'd get busted up pretty quick.
Also, I like the extra padding it gives me to operate the bolt on my CZ if I'm on a rough or rocky surface - with a semi you don't have to move around to shoot as much.
The flat-of-the-elbow thing is dead on. I try to make it a priority fix on the first few squares Saturday morning.
Preface: all of the stuff that Chris wrote on prone SHFs in his first post is spot on, as far as I'm concerned. I'd add that you can stick your thumb in the buttplate hole of your AR and use that to ensure that the butt ends up in the same place every time on your shoulder (feel where the thumb hits your collarbone, then lock it in place). You can use a similar technique if your buttplate doesn't have that hole.
How important is clothing to prone SHFs? IIRC Appleseed dogma says that a shooting coat is not required, and instructors must not wear them, lest we fool students into thinking rubberized padding is needed to shoot score. I agree with that, but I think we should pay more attention to clothing than we do, maybe on the what-to-bring list for the website.
Apparently USMC shooting coats used to be readily available, but a reproduction that meets Appleseed rules for instructor clothing will cost as much as a Creedmoor basic cloth coat ($90). If I'm going to spend that, I'll take Creedmoor's rubberized pads over the cool retro look, since looking good doesn't help with scores ("thank God," most of us AS instructors murmur). Not that we focus on scores, but it's hard to refine the fundamentals we teach if you're slipping and sliding around on your mat, or, God help you, a tarp. Isn't that why we use the sling to provide maximum support for the rifle, after all?
Moving away from the fancy gear, sweatshirts are fine as long as they're not too loose, but a shooter with a slick synthetic layer or a loose sweatshirt will invariably end up with the sling loop down by his elbow. "Know how much your sling helps when the loop is down by your elbow," I'll ask? The shooter will sheepishly move it up, and then it will slide down again after I've moved on. Nylon windbreakers and polypropylene are great for backpacking, but THEY SUCK BAD FOR PRONE SHFs. Guess what people show up with, though, since they're thinking of lightweight and breathable comfort?
The real problem with a coat or sweatshirt for Appleseed in summer is that you spend more hours behind the trigger than you do at a match, and you'll be cooked in your own juices by the end of Saturday. Some kind of a long-sleeved, natural fiber shirt is best in summer, I think. The main problems you need to address are bunching under the sling, brass burns, and support elbow getting rubbed raw with range grit or slopping around on your mat.
October/November and February-April are my favorite times for a shoot in the PNW, since you can add layers without heat death. A Carhartt coat is a good alternative to a padded shooting coat in the colder months; the canvas isn't slippery, and it gives you protection from the sling and abrasion.