OK,
I mentioned this briefly in a post about the data book. But, lets discuss this.
When the shot goes off, as you are squeezing the trigger should it be a suprise?
Many of us are taught/teach that it should be.
I suggest emphatically that it should not!
Here is why.
If one is suprised what happens?
- Blink! How can one call the shot if they blink?
- How can one actually follow thru if they are not calling the shot? Holding the trigger back is but one part of follow thru
- Sight alignment will likely be disturbed as well
The rifle will likely move, albeit a little and one will blink.
It is also indicative of one not "knowing their equipment" especially the trigger. I have a post on trigger control in here as well, this ties into that.
Ideally, one should be aware of that exact moment the hammer will fall on the trigger and they will not be suprised.
How do we make it NOT be a suprise?
Dry Firing at first, learning the equipment and trigger without disturbing sight alignment and calling the shot (follow thru).
Then a combination of dry fire practice and live fire practice.
Try it, it really does work and your scores will improve.
R/
Chris
The whole idea of the shot being a surprise never worked in my head, makes absolutely no sense.
But we all have different thought process, maybe it does work for some others.
In my opinion, trigger surprise is a training wheel.
Novices need to run the trigger slowly to avoid jerking or slapping, therefore they are taught to run it slowly and smoothly, and if the break catches them by surprise, they can't do anything to the gun that's counterproductive.
This was very helpful to me as a novice.
But as I got better, I discovered both that I could anticipate when the trigger would break, and that I sometimes needed to be able to make the trigger break when precisely when I wanted it to... mostly for shooting from standing, and for timing my shots with my heartbeat in seated and prone.
Fortunately, I found that, since I had learned to avoid these bad habits, being surprised by the trigger was no longer necessary, and that I was in fact increasingly in situation where I would be unable to achieve trigger surprise even had I wanted to.
I do, however, make a brief and deliberate visit to the land of trigger surprise whenever I pick up an unfamiliar firearm, staying there briefly to learn that individual trigger, before going back to breaking shots when I want them to break.
Being surprised by the gun going off is a bad way of explaining that you should not anticipate the shot.
Using ball and dummy and training them to call the shot are two of the best ways to eliminate the flinch. Another is to have the shooter aim at the berm only (no target) and watch the front sight jump as they fire.
I'm still trying to figure out how to have that work as a drill for an entire firing line. The one time I tried it was chaos with no one getting the idea and half of them shooting at a target anyway and the reports of their neighbors still causing them to jump. As a one on one drill it's great.
I like placing a penny on a part of the rifle where it will fall off if the trigger pull and break is not smooth.
I like DevonErik's explanation. The problem most untrained shooters have with trigger control is snatching the shot, yanking the trigger, or however you want to describe forcing the rifle to fire in such a way that the muzzle does move during the shot. The surprise break overcomes that. When the shooter is learning with a smallbore, recoil is so light that there should be no urge to flinch with the surprise break, and ball/dummy drills to teach proper trigger control and follow-through are an effective cure.
When using the "Appleseed Trigger Control Training Device" I tell the students they need to make the pen click without bottoming out the button.
All good stuff....
What I am alluding to, is follow thru/calling the shot. It is impossible to call the shot, if it goes off like a surprise.
Maybe we expect too much from our first time attendees/multiple time attendees, when we expect them to call their shots.
I think back, and at first for me it was simply "Hold the trigger back". For some that in itself is a milestone. For many, as I am sure we have witnessed, it can turn into the proverbial "double tap" when a shooter is learning to "hold the trigger back".
I think if we stress/explain the "why" as to "why" they need to hold the trigger back....(a little more than simply it takes a few milliseconds for the bullet to exit the barrel).....
If we explain, that if they disturb step 1 (sight alignment) that all else is in vain. If we explain that if the shot is a surprise (in the truest definition of that word) then they will blink and not be able to call the shots.
None of this happens overnight, at least it did not for me. It was only a few months ago (been at this now for 3 ish years) that I realized some of the finer points of follow thru....namely MAINTAINING steps 1-5 of taking a shot THRU step 6, following thru, only then can one truly call their shots.
Good discussion on it. B&D is a great drill, but it does eat time. I think it should not be ignored. Even with a 10/22, as it imparts the lesson. You can absolutely detect a jerk/flinch/buck in a B&D with a 10/22.
Quality over quantity, meaning, maybe less shots down range, sacrifice an AQT opportunity or two, to teach B&D, or a dime drill.
R/
Chris
Lomsheks point:
"Being surprised by the gun going off is a bad way of explaining that you should anticipate the shot."
I actually do anticipate the shot, but not in the way of nervously anticipating. If that makes sense?
At some point, when one learns their system (trigger), the shot can be anticipated. This is especially true for me in standing/offhand. I know when that hammer on my trigger will fall, and I expect the shot to go off. It is not a surprise, but I do anticipate it.
A bad example of this happened to me a few weeks ago at 600 yards slow fire.
My process in slow fire, is the same. I get to step 5, squeeze, while maintaining the stuff I built upon in steps 1-4. For me, I breath, exhale, pause, take up first stage, then breath again, while holding the first stage. I rarely have this happen, but something disturbed me, (a shooter was having a malfunction issue on my right and it was annoying), I wound up "pulling thru" during my second breath. Was unable to call the shot and my heart sank (as I was in this for leg points). I got LUCKY and the shot came up as a 7 at 11 o clock.
When it is not anticipated, that is when I have issues.
This is speaking only for me.
R/
Quote from: DevonErik on July 16, 2017, 02:34:59 PM
In my opinion, trigger surprise is a training wheel.
Novices need to run the trigger slowly to avoid jerking or slapping, therefore they are taught to run it slowly and smoothly, and if the break catches them by surprise, they can't do anything to the gun that's counterproductive.
This was very helpful to me as a novice.
But as I got better, I discovered both that I could anticipate when the trigger would break, and that I sometimes needed to be able to make the trigger break when precisely when I wanted it to... mostly for shooting from standing, and for timing my shots with my heartbeat in seated and prone.
Fortunately, I found that, since I had learned to avoid these bad habits, being surprised by the trigger was no longer necessary, and that I was in fact increasingly in situation where I would be unable to achieve trigger surprise even had I wanted to.
I do, however, make a brief and deliberate visit to the land of trigger surprise whenever I pick up an unfamiliar firearm, staying there briefly to learn that individual trigger, before going back to breaking shots when I want them to break.
This is a fantasic explanation that matches my experience (such as it is). Btw, if one observes a shooter with a rifle that does not lock open on the last round, and they do not pay attention to round count, it is readily verifiable that a .22 rimfire may indeed induce flinching. This is an impromptu ball and dummy and one may observe the results of this malidy from clear on the other side of the firing line.
Brian Enos discusses "looking off the shot" which I think is a great way to describe it.
You drive the gun with your mind, boring into your front sight or reticle. It is critical above all else to observe what the front sight or reticle does under recoil. Which means, since any shooter with a pulse knows pretty well where their trigger breaks, that your job behind the gun is to simply press the trigger straight to the rear with ever increasing pressure and dispassionately allow it to break so you can observe what happens.
If you are observing intently enough, trigger break is just something that happens while your mind drives the gun on target. It is an incidental, nothing more.
Hard concept at first but made big accuracy gains as a newbie once it clicked.
I can't remember which book it was in(either Mister Rifleman or Handbook on Small Bore Rifle Shooting), but Townsend Whelen talks about sitting in his chair and working the trigger until he knew exactly when it would break. He shared much of the same sentiments expressed here.
Quote from: navybowhunter on July 17, 2017, 08:15:24 AM
All good stuff....
What I am alluding to, is follow thru/calling the shot. It is impossible to call the shot, if it goes off like a surprise.
Maybe we expect too much from our first time attendees/multiple time attendees, when we expect them to call their shots.
I think back, and at first for me it was simply "Hold the trigger back". For some that in itself is a milestone. For many, as I am sure we have witnessed, it can turn into the proverbial "double tap" when a shooter is learning to "hold the trigger back".
I think if we stress/explain the "why" as to "why" they need to hold the trigger back....(a little more than simply it takes a few milliseconds for the bullet to exit the barrel).....
If we explain, that if they disturb step 1 (sight alignment) that all else is in vain. If we explain that if the shot is a surprise (in the truest definition of that word) then they will blink and not be able to call the shots.
None of this happens overnight, at least it did not for me. It was only a few months ago (been at this now for 3 ish years) that I realized some of the finer points of follow thru....namely MAINTAINING steps 1-5 of taking a shot THRU step 6, following thru, only then can one truly call their shots.
Good discussion on it. B&D is a great drill, but it does eat time. I think it should not be ignored. Even with a 10/22, as it imparts the lesson. You can absolutely detect a jerk/flinch/buck in a B&D with a 10/22.
Quality over quantity, meaning, maybe less shots down range, sacrifice an AQT opportunity or two, to teach B&D, or a dime drill.
R/
Chris
I follow you. It took me a long time to be able to call my shot... not sure why. But, it just didn't make sense to me and I couldn't do it.. Now I can and do.
I think calling the shot is a lot for new shooters to swallow.
As for the break being a surprise - I agree with most. Just doesn't hold water. That is not to say that when I do my part - and it
is a surprise that the shot isnt near perfect... but its a hard thing to 'surprise yourself'. So, I explain that its nice when the steady pressure on the trigger breaks the shot... but I don't stress
making it a surprise...
Personally, I stress follow through in a big way... I give examples of the principle of follow-through by describing how a golfer, a baseball throw, batter... and what ever other sport comes to mind. I explain how important it is that your arm keeps moving after you release the ball... I explain this with many examples... most people completely get it... then I tell them how rifle shooting has this principle of follow through also - and go over holding the trigger back... I usually get a few "ahhh's" of understanding from the crowd.
Quote from: navybowhunter on July 17, 2017, 08:22:42 AM
Lomsheks point:
"Being surprised by the gun going off is a bad way of explaining that you should anticipate the shot."
I actually do anticipate the shot, but not in the way of nervously anticipating. If that makes sense?
At some point, when one learns their system (trigger), the shot can be anticipated. This is especially true for me in standing/offhand. I know when that hammer on my trigger will fall, and I expect the shot to go off. It is not a surprise, but I do anticipate it.
A bad example of this happened to me a few weeks ago at 600 yards slow fire.
My process in slow fire, is the same. I get to step 5, squeeze, while maintaining the stuff I built upon in steps 1-4. For me, I breath, exhale, pause, take up first stage, then breath again, while holding the first stage. I rarely have this happen, but something disturbed me, (a shooter was having a malfunction issue on my right and it was annoying), I wound up "pulling thru" during my second breath. Was unable to call the shot and my heart sank (as I was in this for leg points). I got LUCKY and the shot came up as a 7 at 11 o clock.
When it is not anticipated, that is when I have issues.
This is speaking only for me.
R/
Stinking fat fingers and typing fast made that a typo. I edited my original post above!
It should have said "Being surprised by the gun going off is a bad way of explaining that you should
NOT anticipate the shot."
By that I meant when explaining it to my shooters I don't want them thinking "Here it comes...here it comes!!!" until the gun finally goes off startling them.
As you know with experience we know when the shot will break from long hours of practice but rather than being surprised or startled by it we are expecting it on a detached level so that we can call the shot.