I'll not digress into fundamentals here. This is only as to why it is important.
How many of us shoot at different ranges?
How many of us have shot different ranges in different enviro/wind conditions?
This is why it is important. Data book can be referred to to set an initial zero for the yard line one is shooting, with a greater amount of confidence if one has shot there before.
For example, a HARD Holder friend of mine, Roman, was shooting at Ft Hill with me a few weeks ago. Roman shared to myself and another that FT Hill is actually a 1/4 min - 1/2 min of elevation shorter than most ranges. It is not exactly 600 yards. That is great info to know.
Lighting conditions effect the way we perceive the target. Shooting a target brightly lit versus one dimly lit will affect elevation. Lights Up Sights Up stuff here.
SO data book, what is in it?
- A spot to plot the call
- A spot/target to plot the actual, preferably laid out in an MOA grid
- A spot for initial dope setting
- A spot for ending dope after the session
- A spot for date/time of day/location
- A spot for general wind direction and speed
- A spot for sun position/temp/mirage
- A spot for notes
I think the notes part is important. And a great habit/discipline to develop is not leaving the firing point without writing important notes. Typically when I am done with shot 20 at 600, I am physically exhausted. Just want to get off the mat and get ready to head home. It is tempting to be LAZY and not record notes.
The notes can help. For example, in this page, it is not one of my best examples. But it is important to me. On shot 12 I pulled thru (you can see that remark in the call section). That means, I took up stage 1, and pulled thru. Could not call that shot, cause I freaked out (it was a surpise....should never be a surpise *another topic*) and I blinked. I got lucky on that shot and it was a high 7 and 11 o'clock.
Shot 14, I felt like my stock was too short, it was slipping for some reason. I know it was not my sling, as I wear a 1907 Ron Brown that does not slip. Added one more position of length to the stock, and put the next shot up as a 10.
In the notes, I put that shot 18 I had a malfunction. I was very flustered, this was an EIC match and I did not want to end the match with 3 ZEROS! Round jammed behind the bolt, I was able to get it loose, but my pulse went squirrely as I was flustered and shot 18 was a wide 9, shot 19 was a wide 7 and shot 20 was a 12 o clock 7! BUT...., I know why.
There is also a spot to record what ammo I was using, for obvious reasons.
SO, next time I shoot FT Hill, why is this data important to me?
It will give me a reputable starting zero of 14 MOA up, and 1/2 L for the ammo I was using.
There was wind, I estimated 5-8, but....never added any wind to the rifle. I bet some did! LOL
That in a nutshell is why my data is important to me. I may not shoot again for a few weeks, and may have forgotten that for slow prone, I need to practice some more shooting with my UBR stock at pos 5 vice 4.
This was a no-sighter EIC match. Got my first 6 pt leg at this match. That is partly because I have shot FT Hill and had a data page that told me that 14 up was my starting elev!
Make sense?
Good stuff!
Big believer in data books. I shoot competition at three different ranges with at least seven different rifles. Knowing zeros for specific ammo under certain conditions is key to having a good match. I always set my sites back to zero after a string of fire. Having a data book makes this possible.
Once again I'll be a "voice in the wilderness". Data books are dead or in their death bed. Although at one time they were the "best tool in the toolbox", time and technology spell its demise.
I'm not associated with Kestrel, but today they provide the most accurate and fastest firing solution to a long range marksmanship problem.
The rest of this post will refer to the Kestrel 5700 with the Applied Ballistics Solver. The instrument has basically two modules; the weather module and the ballistics module.
By PFM the weather module transfers current weather metrics to the ballistics module. No need to do anything, it just happens. In the ballistics side, you can store data for rifle/bullet combination. I believe you can store up to 16 of these pairings. You can do this way beforehand, if the information is available. In my case, I have data for one rifle caliber 0.308 using 168 gr SMK bullets. As long as I don't delete that profile, it will always be there; all I need to do on location is to select it or I can create another rifle/bullet profile if that is what I want to use.
The tricky part is that you will need to "true" the solver. You want to avoid the junk in junk out syndrome. Again, this step needs to be performed for each rifle profile you will be using. I can't say I understand the physics involved, but, as an example, you begin by getting a good 100 mt zero, From the kestrel you now get the data for the "truing" target you will be using. This target needs to be close to where the bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic. Using the data the kestrel provided, you now fire a group on that far target and adjust the scope data to POI as close to your POA as possible. The difference between the initial POI and the "zeroed" POI is your correction to the solver algorithm. Once you make an input of that correction, the solver is now "trued" for that rifle/bullet profile at any location, under any weather conditions. For my rifle/ammo profile I was 1 ¾ MOA low. My target was at 800 yds, so my impacts were about 14 in low. Meant that the muzzle velocity on my profile was on the slow side. Once I applied to correction to the kestrel the instrument corrected the MV to indicate a higher MV value. And it is now stored in its memory forever for that profile, at any range, under any weather conditions.
When you get to whatever range you will be shooting, you input the target distance (known or lased), and the solver will provide the solution, in elevation and windage. Remember that the kestrel will be measuring and transferring to the ballistics module actual weather metrics at your present location.
The downside is that this is a pretty expensive gadget. If you hang around the same KD stomping grounds a data book or a data card derived from one of the many free ballistics programs on the internet, will probably suffice. If you travel, or compete in unknown range competitions, this instrument will give you an edge.
I'm now ready for the incoming!!
aj
Technology marches on.
In prehistoric times I have no doubt that one cave man was aghast that his friend and hunting partner tied a rock to a stick. "NOOO! you use either a rock, or a stick, you cant tie them together"
With the Kestral in existence suddenly, a lot of what I perceive as the fun of shooting is gone.
What used to be estimation, guess work, and luck (Fun) is now key strokes (Bla).
Laying in the ditch, roughed up from being sideswiped by progress, I get a small taste of the bitterness that consumed Ted Kaczynski.
Disclamer, I do use a laser range finder.
I absolutely agree Clodhopper. For me, I just use a small pocket sized notebook and a pencil...simple, cheap and certainly no fuss no muss. On the front inside cover of my notebook I glued in two of what I call "try cards". One for 62gr 5.56/.223 and 168gr 7.62x51/.308. Both out to 600 yards. will it create "sniper accuracy"? Absolutely not, it WILL how ever get you on target by MOB or as I like to say, Minute of Bad guy. From there you can adjust.
Seems to me that if you shoot your rifle A LOT in different conditions you should 1. Be able to aptly predict what your rifle will do. 2. Aptly predict what YOU will do based upon your body type/condition. 3. Aptly predict what your particular load will do.
just my viewpoint, your mileage may vary and objects in the mirror are closer than they appear
I used my Kestrel at our last Service Rifle practice match: I stood on the 600 yd berm, held it into the wind coming from 6 o'clock, and saw that it read 25-28 mph. It was useful for lowering expectations, and that was about it. The wind was a 20-30 mph fishtail, and I did not meet my goal of shooting that stage with no misses. I've attached my databook page. You can see that after shot 7 (a 6 at 3 o'clock), I went 3 MOA left (6 clicks), and shot 8 was a miss out the right side. Another 4 MOA left put me in the 10 ring with shot 9, until the next change (see shot 13). I need to get better at reading flags and conditions, obviously! I don't think a computer would've helped, at least in the match.
I keep a separate set of pages with handwritten zeros for 200 offhand, 200 sitting, 300, and 600 for each AR upper. They don't change that much, unless I move my scope or put a new barrel on (and I've done both in the last month), and even a different load will usually be on paper. I also keep notes on problems and possible solutions in a spreadsheet, not because I ever look at them, but the act of writing things out helps commit them to memory.
Ballistic calculators are a whole separate ball of hurt. I showed up for a 1-day KD qualifier with a 100, 200, 300 zero, and a Ballistic AE estimate for 400 (based on my chronographed hand load). My group at 400 was on paper, but 4 MOA high, and thus outside the scoring rings. Useful? Absolutely! I qualified on the next AQT. However, be aware that calculators might save you some time and ammo, they're not always right. The Kestrel can make the humidity/pressure corrections on trajectory, but does it correct for increased ammo pressure in high temperatures?
Quote from: maxwell on August 30, 2018, 01:01:55 PM
I used my Kestrel at our last Service Rifle practice match: I stood on the 600 yd berm, held it into the wind coming from 6 o'clock, and saw that it read 25-28 mph. It was useful for lowering expectations, and that was about it. The wind was a 20-30 mph fishtail, and I did not meet my goal of shooting that stage with no misses. I've attached my databook page. You can see that after shot 7 (a 6 at 3 o'clock), I went 3 MOA left (6 clicks), and shot 8 was a miss out the right side. Another 4 MOA left put me in the 10 ring with shot 9, until the next change (see shot 13). I need to get better at reading flags and conditions, obviously! I don't think a computer would've helped, at least in the match.
I keep a separate set of pages with handwritten zeros for 200 offhand, 200 sitting, 300, and 600 for each AR upper. They don't change that much, unless I move my scope or put a new barrel on (and I've done both in the last month), and even a different load will usually be on paper. I also keep notes on problems and possible solutions in a spreadsheet, not because I ever look at them, but the act of writing things out helps commit them to memory.
Ballistic calculators are a whole separate ball of hurt. I showed up for a 1-day KD qualifier with a 100, 200, 300 zero, and a Ballistic AE estimate for 400 (based on my chronographed hand load). My group at 400 was on paper, but 4 MOA high, and thus outside the scoring rings. Useful? Absolutely! I qualified on the next AQT. However, be aware that calculators might save you some time and ammo, they're not always right. The Kestrel can make the humidity/pressure corrections on trajectory, but does it correct for increased ammo pressure in high temperatures?
Don't EVEN get me started on gear....My wife will thank you lol. I am MORE than willing to go down the gear rabbit hole when it comes to firearms and Jeeps.
When I was doing a lot of long range ( I do not any more) I had a kestrel, absolutely loved it. My eldest son now has all my "super wizbang gear" and loves it. I guess as I have gotten older I have just gotten a little more luddite when it comes to gear.
Nothing wrong with gear.
My posting was misunderstood by some readers. There are Kestrels and then there are Kestrels. My first one was model 3500. It was just a handy weather station. Models 4500 and 5700 can have the Applied Ballistics software (what I refer to as the solver). I guess you can also call them ballistics calculators since they have the same software as "regular" ballistic calculators, but they also have the weather module which transfers its data to the ballistics side of the instrument.
Using Maxwell example where his Kestrel gave him a reading of 28-28 mph from 6'oclock, that would be all an early kestrel would do. The Kestrels with the Applied Ballistics software would have also provided him with with elevation and windage settings (Mil or MOA, your choice) based on "real time, at this very moment" weather metrics.
Just about anything will be rendered obsolete by advances in technology. We don't often use muzzleloaders anymore. Word processors replaced typewriters. Automatic transmissions greatly outnumber stick shifts; and on, and on, and on.
Like I posted, I don't work for Kestrel and get no benefit from their economic well being. It's an individual choice to use them or not, but in the future most shooters will be using one; just like cell phones replaced rotary dial phones and public phone booths. Repeating myself, if you just hang around Appleseed events or KD ranges, you don't really need one. DOPE will most likely get you on paper; computed ballistic data will get you closer to POA. But it's individual choice. If for whatever reason you choose not to use ballistic solvers (kestrel is not the only one out there), data books are essential, If you use the solvers, data books become a footnote in history.
aj
Airplane Joe,
I have seen the eveloution of kestrels.
To keep up, you need to always be buying a new one.
It also takes up vital space where I keep my candy bar!
Quote from: Mark Davis on August 31, 2018, 10:43:37 AM
Airplane Joe,
I have seen the eveloution of kestrels.
To keep up, you need to always be buying a new one.
It also takes up vital space where I keep my candy bar!
I am glad to see that we still agree on our priorities Clodhopper. Don't want to get all Joe Peschi now do we
Quote from: airplanejoe on August 31, 2018, 09:58:52 AM
My posting was misunderstood by some readers. There are Kestrels and then there are Kestrels. My first one was model 3500. It was just a handy weather station. Models 4500 and 5700 can have the Applied Ballistics software (what I refer to as the solver). I guess you can also call them ballistics calculators since they have the same software as "regular" ballistic calculators, but they also have the weather module which transfers its data to the ballistics side of the instrument.
Hey Joe, I fully understood that you were talking about the expensive Kestrel (currently $699 from Midway, with free shipping). The problem I was alluding to with a strong fishtail wind is that small errors in wind direction measurement will give you a large error on target. You can probably get around that to an extent by using a vane ($50) to mount your Kestrel on a nearby tripod. If someone wants to send me one, I'll be happy to take it up to Rattlesnake Mountain and prove myself wrong. :D In a match situation, the Kestrel is also only good for that first shot: from that point on, you're looking at flags or mirage, or maybe the tumbleweeds going over your head.
There are probably locations and situations where it's a great tool, and obviously the environmental corrections it performs will improve model accuracy. I just encourage caution on ballistic models, based on my experience (and possibly also because I have run hydrodynamic models for a living). Maybe my chronograph sucks, or maybe Litz' coefficients for the 69 grain MatchKing are wonky; playing with boundary conditions still didn't account for the error I saw, and it even stumped a friend who shoots long-range. You can correct that through calibration, as you described in your original post.