OK,
In my 2 years of competitive shooting, I have learned a lot on wind calling. More to learn, I am by no means a master.
But will share a few observations/experiences here.
1. In all but one match (600 yards) I have never had more than 1.5 MOA of wind on the rifle at 600. I have been shooting Vintage Sniper matches where I have had 1/2 MOA on, and the other spotters were calling 2MOA! A novice would have listened to the other wind calls, but that would have been a mess. TRUST your wind call. Make your OWN call, it is the only way you will learn it.
2. Jim Owens type advice here, but...what if we are shooting .223 (77 or 80 grain bullets) at 600 yards, and it is a true FULL value 20 MPH wind blowing from right to left. What would your call be? AS advises 1 MOA per 100 yards per every 10 MPH correct? That would be 12 MOA of left wind right? I would bet that if you put that on the rifle, you would be hitting off the target or close to it. Owens advises to CUT it in HALF (that is what he means when referring to the "Big Lie"). So...., 6 MOA. That may even be too much. But it will likely get you in the aiming black.
3. Use a spotting scope to view the mirage. Flags can lie, mirage rarely does. Use them as a team, what does the flag say, what does the mirage say? Then make a call. Impart the adjustment to your sights and then look in spotting scope again. Ask yourself "IS IT THE SAME OR HAS IT CHANGED??" (Ken Roxburg advice here).
The wind will never be the same. It is a lot like the ocean waves/tides. Pickup/Letoff/Lull or boil.
Try to shoot in the same conditions you dialed for, make the choice to shoot after reading the mirage and asking the "Is it the same or has it changed".
Other targets can help as well. My spotting scope can see 3(ish) targets at 600 yards. As a scorer, I am on the scope to verify/record my shooters shots. If I know a hard holder is on his/her right and left, I will see what they score as well. This is how one can learn to catch the "Changes".
As stated, I am no pro at it. But my 600 line has been pretty strong, always in the 90s for 10 shot strings.
Now....what about 100 yards? 200 yards? I have yet to add wind to the rifle at 200. Well....OK...maybe I have added 1/2 MOA but never more than that. The wind is also moving the rifle in standing.
300 yards, I have never had more than 3/4 - 1 MOA on, and typically it is nothing or 1/2.
A great way to prove/learn the wind, is to shoot in some. Say 400-600 yards (cause there is rarely significant wind under 400), and look for a 10 MPH full value day. Make the call, adjust sights and send a 10 shot group looking in spotting scope for mirage before and after each shot. Make sure you are plotting your shot call as well. Compare the calls, to the actuals. You will likely see (if you held hard) that most were 10's, with a couple 9's or 8's on either side. Those 9's/8's (if you called em 10's) were the letoff in wind you missed, or you shot in a no wind condition (boil).
Anyone else have any thoughts?
R/
Chris
The above is geared towards an AS KD AQT or NRA High Power.
In AS, the KD aiming black is what? How many MOA at 400? I think it is over 4.
In NRA HP the X ring and 10 ring combined is 2 MOA at 600 yards. That is 12 inches!
So, it is important to note, that 1 MOA of wind, you will still hold the X/10 ring regardless of the wind. What about a 2 MOA wind? Maybe 1/4 - 1/2 would be appropriate, too close to the 9 ring.
SO....let me head this off at the pass. PRS/F CLass/BR shooters that are shooting at a significantly smaller target, may need to adjust for the wind more.
I'm only speaking to HP and AS KD.
One can also BLAME, albeit wrongly, shooter errors on the wind. Most of us have all done it. Wind got me, when it was actually a shift in NPA or breathing or one of the other fundamentals that was screwed up.
SO....this is assuming that one is a HARD holder and capable of high 90's at 600, or already AS KD qualified with at least a 3 MOA group at 400 yards.
If you can consistently shoot 3 MOA at 400 yards, now start playing with the wind stuff.
In other words, even at 400 in an AS KD with a 20 MPH full value wind right to left, that is what? 8 MOA right? Now lets take Jim Owens advice and cut that in half. 4 MOA correct?
Will a 4 MOA wind push your bullet out of the BLACK on the AS KD target?
It may.....but likely not. The wind will never (rarely) be a steady 4 MOA. It will pick up gradually from .25 MOA to 4 MOA and then die down the same way.
This is what I am alluding to when we start blaming the wind for positional issues.
Now, if the group is a 2 MOA group, all on one far side of the target....OK, we have wind!
Make sense?
My math may be off above, I am bad with simple math. The real point is the wind never stays the same, and it has a less effect on the bullet than we really think it will, most times.
R/
Chris
Some more on this, I am passionate about this topic. For a variety of reasons, but in the AS context, I think many of us could improve our instruction and personal experience shooting with the wind.
First, one has to be at a point where they can TRULY say it was the wind's fault they threw a wide shot.
Until that can happen, we are doing nothing but chasing our tails.
How do we do this?
Here is how I do it. DRY fire in no wind conditions! I am lucky enough to have a SCATT trainer and it revealed a LOT of position issues.
Shoot a range that typically has a NO wind condition. They are out there! Even at CAMP Perry a few firing points (called the tunnel) have significantly less wind affect than others.
I shoot a range in Cumberland, MD (Fort Hill). Fort Hill's range design, is a well known range around my area for a "NO Wind ZERO" range. I cannot think of another range that is better.
Also....I have NEVER but on one occasion shot in a FULL Value. That was at Mifflin County Sportsmans Club in PA and was during a UKD event. I learned a LOT that day, as the wind affect under 500 yards was nothing/easy! When we got between 800 and 1050, it was a TOUGH wind. Only the instructors and 1/2 other shooters managed hits on targets that day between 900 and 1050.
What I did learn, was that I was blaming my own fundamental errors on externals. The wind being one of them. We all have heard the excuses, my reloads, my sights, my rifle, etc etc....and the wind.
Most times the wind is 1/4 - 1/2 value. The wind changes! Cannot stress that enough. It changes from one shooter shooting 300 rapid, to me shooting 300 rapid next on the same target. In the beginning, I asked fellow competitors, "What was your call"? Most are happy to tell you, and also tell you if they were right or wrong. BUT, it doesn't really matter....why? CAUSE IT CHANGES!
It changes from first thing in the am, to the late afternoon.
IF you have gotten to the point of perfecting your shot calls, you are ready to start blaming the wind. Until then, you are not.
Sounds harsh huh? It is what it is.
Unless you are a master of your fundamentals, and calling the shots, you can't really blame the wind.
R/
Chris
Some of my data book pics from my last 4 matches at the 600 yard line slow fire prone.
You will see, rarely did I have a LOT of wind on. The shots numbered with a circle, are from shots 11 - 20. So I can tell those from shots 1-10.
Most times thrown shots from shot 16 on, are fatigue.
Not saying the wind did not change, it could have. But, I did not blame it on that.
My no wind zero is actually .5MOA Left. So, in my book, I always start with .5 L and add to that for any wind.
OK last one for now on wind.
Attached is a picture of Sergeant First Class Brandon Green's 600 yard target at Camp Perry from a few weeks ago.
He posted this on Facebook, and captioned it "Thank you Camp Perry, may I have another"!
Point being, this is not what anyone would expect Brandon's target to look like. EVER! Brandon never shoots 9's, well....very rarely.
The comments started pouring in, jokingly of course. Turns out, Brandon WON that match!
Can you imagine what the average competitors targets looked like?
Wind can also be a great equalizer. It levels the playing field. You may score lower in a match with BIG wind, but so will everyone else.
I found this to be a great opportunity to slam this home.
Interesting posts.
In my Rimfire KD classes we often have some opportunity to taste the wind... our usual range is in a box canyon where gusts of 10-15 MPH full value (3 o'clock) is the usual state of affairs. One exercise I like to do is post two targets at 100 meters, one above the other, and have students shoot the top one when they feel the wind is up, and the bottom one when they think it's calm, no sight adjustments or sight picture changes. This reveals the total system uncertainty due to wind -- both the wind itself, and how they unconsciously adjust to it.
Rule of thumb, .22 LR = 1 MOA / 10 MPH full value / 25 meters => 4 MOA at 100 meters in 10 MPH 3 o'clock wind. However, the change between the two targets is generally within the group size, more like 2 MOA on average. Only with a few very consistent shooters do we see the rule of thumb actually carried out.
This is a good fit to your Owens Rule. I'll chalk it up to a number of factors -- people tend to overestimate wind speeds, wind is rarely consistent all the way to the target and is probably dying somewhere, psychologically we'll hold into it without knowing it... Also, wind gets blamed for a whole lot of things that are probably shooter error. Wind is a kind of "Deus ex Machina" you can always pick on. ::)
I like the Owens Rule. Particularly in competition... it's better to creep up on a big change than to overshoot, and so long as it gets you on paper and able to adjust, it's good enough.
In my class we focus on explaining all shooter errors, but focus on the simplest explanation possible. Wind is a complex explanation -- blame the wind only when everything else has been squared away. But since the wind effect is generally a couple of MOA at most, shooters can almost ignore the wind, and the best way to "Get Good" is simply to wait for calm or consistent conditions rather than trying to dope it. That's why we get five minutes in Stage IV.
RocketMan,
The wind is/will eventually become the great equalizer in matches.
I am still a novice to reading it. But I do like your point. Don't sweat it much, as stated above, most times it is not going to affect one's score too much. I think that is where I am at.
I have spent way more of my time on the fundamentals of the positions and trigger control. Because, I want to be able to say that it was the wind at some point.
I've been caught by it, but most times it results in a wide 9, or an 8. Most times a wide 9. What is nice is when one can get to a point when they can actually say they were caught by the wind and it was not them or their position.
Getting there....slowly! LOL
Quote from: navybowhunter on July 17, 2017, 08:28:17 AMWhat is nice is when one can get to a point when they can actually say they were caught by the wind and it was not them or their position.
Exactly this.
If I can get my shooters to the point that they're making their calls on everything except the wind, but the know about it and can actually see the effects, then they've got it made. I don't think there's any substitute for experience in understanding the wind, but with a little work we can learn what part is wind and what isn't.
I too have MUCH to learn. The most productive days I've had were teamed with a spotter on a high wind day at moderate range (400 - 600 meters). The rimfire approach isn't bad, though getting near instant feedback on every shot is a huge help.
Re-read this post, as I dealt with some significant wind during the National Rimfire Sporter match at Perry last weekend. Yup, I had to add wind for 50 yards slow prone, 1.25 MOA from my no wind zero. That was interesting for sure!
OK, as I read this, I caught something I missed last time I scanned this thread. Rocketman said:
"psychologically we'll hold into it without knowing it... "
Hmmmm, there is truth to the above but I am not smart enough to understand it.
Take the Vintage Sniper matches I shoot. Me and my partner have medaled in the last 3 matches we shot together. My partner is a little better score wise than I am, but I am on his heels. He legged out a few weeks ago and earned his Distinguished Rifleman badge, so my man can shoot very well.
Last 2 matches, he started coaching me a little different. We were at the 600 yard line, and wind likely pushed a round from the X ring to the left 10 ring. Just on the line of the 9 ring. The DANGER ZONE! LOL
Target comes up, Jeff and I see the left 10, and Jeff tells me....."THINK about holding right of the 10 ring, DO NOT do it, just THINK about doing it", I thought....."What kind of wizardry is this?!"
But, I have been humbled enough in this sport to know that I should listen and try what people say. I "Thought" about the right side of the 10 ring, squeezed, and bang! Called it a center 10. Target comes up for the next shot, and we see the score of the previous. Center punched X!
So, I have done this a few times in matches and there is definitely something to "Thinking about" holding elsewhere and it works.
Anyone else have experience with this "Think about holding" stuff? I cannot explain how or why it works, just that it does.
R/
Chris
A couple of thoughts I will share on this.
The first is from an AMU friend...
QuoteA 9 out to the left is as good as a 9 out to the right.
The point of course is don't be afraid to turn the knobs. Dialing too much vs dialing too little generally ends up around the same place, just on different sides. Many newer shooters are reluctant to turn the knobs, and put shot after shot out to one side until they finally get enough wind on the gun to center their shots. By that time the wind has likely changed. :)
The other important thing to me in learning to read wind is learning to hold the rifle still. REALLY still. This is certainly a more advanced skill, and well beyond a standard Appleseed, but if most of the time you're dealing with wind in the range of 1-2 minutes of angle (and I agree with Chris that's quite common), and you're shooting 4 MOA groups, the effects of the wind are mostly lost in the size of the group. Was that wide shot you, or the wind? Very hard to say.
Reading wind simply comes with practice and experience, both at shooting and at wind reading. You'll be amazed at how much better your wind reading becomes as your shooting skills improve!
Quote from: navybowhunter on August 02, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
Target comes up, Jeff and I see the left 10, and Jeff tells me....."THINK about holding right of the 10 ring, DO NOT do it, just THINK about doing it", I thought....."What kind of wizardry is this?!"
But, I have been humbled enough in this sport to know that I should listen and try what people say. I "Thought" about the right side of the 10 ring, squeezed, and bang! Called it a center 10. Target comes up for the next shot, and we see the score of the previous. Center punched X!
So, I have done this a few times in matches and there is definitely something to "Thinking about" holding elsewhere and it works.
Anyone else have experience with this "Think about holding" stuff? I cannot explain how or why it works, just that it does.
I'm not any sort of cognitive neuroscience specialist, but I have written software for some of their research. So take all of this skeptically, because I am probably glossing over many details that a researcher would be current on.
Apparently, the brain is a set of tightly connected neural nets, which are loosely connected with each other. Each serves a broad range of related functions in the body as a whole. This means that many are doing double duty, or that the activity of a particular part is often a component of several different sorts of things we might do.
One example of this that I am aware of is that visualization of a possible movement, the plan to carry it out, and the act of doing so
all use the same spatial modeling systems in the brain , so there's some bleed-through. That's the theoretical model explanation.
The observed phenomenon that we're explaining (and this part I am sure of), it that imagining a movement results in activation of the firing nerves for muscles associated with it... just several orders of magnitude less intense.
In other words, you are subvocalizing, but with your hands.