In life I find its often better to just ask dumb questions than try to skate through. This is likely one of those times.
I've read quite often of the importance of getting into a position that involves going NTCH, or Nose to Charging Handle on an AR15. I dryfire in that position when practicing. With a snug loop sling in prone position, and a stock in the second position, I find my nose right on that charging handle. Last weekend I participated in a KD event, and for stage 3 and 4 of the AQT I find myself creeping up on the rifle, to the point that I'm getting the charging handle jammed right in my right nostril. Stage 4 I could take the time to push the rifle further forward and reconfirm NPOA, but Stage 3 didn't give me the opportunity to mess with it. When the rifle would creep up like that, it would give me a slight shaddowing on the scope. Ultimately I shot a perfect score (40/40) so I'm not complaining, but just wondering some suggestions on fixing the "creeping rifle."
Loosening the sling made the rifle too loose. I guess I could have gone to position 3 on the stock, and loosen the sling tension a little, but then when I started out shooting my nose was about 3/4" off the charging handle.
Suggestions, or am I being too particular and instead should just move the scope further forward to get better eye relief when I'm "sniffing charging handle"?
I would try moving the stock longer one notch.
Not a dumb question.
Personally, I don't mess with the adjustable stocks. I prefer the A2 fixed length, as it is one less variable to worry about.
Support hand at sling swivel, (tip of) nose to charging handle. Adjust your body's index to the rifle to allow these two reference points to coincide. Adjust sling to provide support with that index. Shift hips to adjust NPOA.
That being said, NTCH isn't super critical. Just like hand at sling swivel isn't super critical. These are simply points of reference, that allow you to have a consistent hold on the rifle, every time you sling up.
You've discovered that your head position is changing even with Nose to Charging Handle. I would extend my stock and adjust my sling for stages 3 and 4. Practice at home first and get an idea of how much you need. Likely it will be an inch or less and if you have your standard sling position marked, it won't be a problem to go back and forth.
But you the key isn't where your nose is. It is that your eye is centered behind the rear sight for each position that you shoot.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on June 12, 2017, 05:31:04 PM
Personally, I don't mess with the adjustable stocks. I prefer the A2 fixed length, as it is one less variable to worry about.
This, x1,000. My wife uses an A1, since the A2 is a bit long for her. Removing the temptation to fiddle with stock length was worth it, for me.
I prefer a higher prone position and a really tight sling with the AR, so I can't put my hand out to the sling swivel. I've marked my hand position on the forestock with a paint pen, though, so it's CONSISTENT. Same thing with NTCH. I stick the CH in my left nostril and touch my upper lip to the forward bolt assist, so my eye is always in the same position relative to the rear sight. It's hard to get off center with the smallish (046) aperture I use in my A2 sights, though, so my head position is probably more constrained than yours by default.
Are you using an UBR stock?
For what its worth, with a Ron Brown 1907 sling, and an AR15 with an UBR stock here is what I do:
I am 6 ft tall, 215 lbs
NTCH for all positions.
Standing: Stock at pos 2, sling at parade.
Rapid Seated: Stock at pos 4, sling at pos 4
Rapid Prone: Same as seated
Slow Prone: Same as seated
On the Magpul UBR, there is a plastic cover that covers the buffer tube. I found that by removing that, it helped me with my repeatability.
FWIW
R/
Chris
Another approach could be to give yourself more room by using a Raptor or some other forward-swept ambi charging handle.
NTCH is a great index but it isn't a requirement for good shooting. My bolt guns dont have a charging handle and they still shoot fine.
Quote from: Mark Davis on June 12, 2017, 05:25:41 PM
I would try moving the stock longer one notch.
Probably going to be the answer in the long run.
My problem was that in dryfire, with the stock at position 2, I wasn't getting the rifle creeping up on me. That could have been because I was dryfiring more in a slight "downrange" position that I"m use to in a 25m event, and the KD event was closer to even, requiring me to raise the rifle more and alter my position somewhat from what I was practicing at. Another would be the slight recoil, although I doubt it contributed much to the change. When dryfiring with the stock in position 3, my nose was off the CH. Maybe the answer is to practice in position 2 and shoot in position 3? IDK.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on June 12, 2017, 05:31:04 PM
Personally, I don't mess with the adjustable stocks. I prefer the A2 fixed length, as it is one less variable to worry about.
I avoided fixed stocks on my AR thus far. Mainly because I always used an adjustable stock, and with standing in position 3 and seating/prone in position 2, I couldn't imagine how you could get consistent NTCH on a fixed stock. Or was my thinking completely off base?
Quote from: jmdavis on June 12, 2017, 05:35:50 PM
But you the key isn't where your nose is. It is that your eye is centered behind the rear sight for each position that you shoot.
Which is actually my concern. The slight shaddowing on the scope is what gave me concern. Only because I had the scope adjusted to provide perfect eye relief when I was NTCH. Alternatively, I could move the scope forward and shoot Nostril TCH.
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 11:18:15 AM
Are you using an UBR stock?
No, just the standard 6 position stock that comes on cheap ARs. My intention is to get a UBR stock, or at least it was, but just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 11:18:15 AM
Standing: Stock at pos 2, sling at parade.
Rapid Seated: Stock at pos 4, sling at pos 4
Rapid Prone: Same as seated
Slow Prone: Same as seated
I might be misunderstanding, as I'm referring to position 2 and 3 above as 2 being shorter, and 3 being somewhat longer.
Is your standing position #2 from the back? Or is standing shorter than seated/prone?
Quote from: Kennebago on June 13, 2017, 11:31:34 AM
Another approach could be to give yourself more room by using a Raptor or some other forward-swept ambi charging handle.
Already have one ;D
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/charging-handle-parts/charging-handles/ar-15-raptor-charging-handle-raptor-ar15-m16-charging-handle-sku100-011-154-99231-111676.aspx
I might be misunderstanding, as I'm referring to position 2 and 3 above as 2 being shorter, and 3 being somewhat longer.
Is your standing position #2 from the back? Or is standing shorter than seated/prone?
My standing position of the stock is significantly shorter than seated or prone.
Sometimes.....(still working to clean rapid seated), I bring the stock in to pos 3 vice 4. Many shooters have a short stock standing, a little longer in seated and much longer in prone.
Hand position has a lot to do with this as well. For me, standing no sling....so that is what it is.
Seated, I choke back on the quad rail, I'd say it is about 1/2 way back. I have rubberized Manta rail covers and use a shooting glove and it grips it nicely.
For prone, my hand is FWD to the swivel, and it does get to be uncomfy as hell by say shot 17 at 600 yards. But....I motor thru it cause it is what works for me.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Specialkay on June 13, 2017, 11:39:41 AM
My problem was that in dryfire, with the stock at position 2, I wasn't getting the rifle creeping up on me. That could have been because I was dryfiring more in a slight "downrange" position that I"m use to in a 25m event, and the KD event was closer to even, requiring me to raise the rifle more and alter my position somewhat from what I was practicing at. Another would be the slight recoil, although I doubt it contributed much to the change.
A higher position could certainly do it. Have you dry fired for the duration of the KD at the time you noticed it creeping up? I also find that body stretching due to a day shooting will allow positions that weren't possible at the start of the day, especially in a relaxed state and warmer temperatures.
SpecialK,
Question, what kind of sling are you using? I'm guessing a web sling?
Nothing wrong with those, but....
Might I recommend a 1907 sling. Preferably a Ron Brown.
I have tried the Turner AWS slings and while they are good, they are not as good as a Ron Brown.
Many are intimidated by the 1907 leather slings, but they are really easy to learn and I can get sling adjusted properly and faster now than I would be able to with a web sling.
1907 slings also lend to a more repeatable position, as the notches/holes are a ready reference.
You (and anyone else reading) may find that your groups tighten and the position becomes more stable and repeatable with a 1907 sling.
Now..., I know a shooter from Team CMP and they have some very accomplished shooters on that team. One of the shooters uses a web sling! Like I said, nothing wrong with using either. However the majority of HP shooters are using a leather sling.
The thing about that Team CMP shooter is .....he has shot with both web and 1907 and has personally decided that the web sling is for him. How will anyone else know if a 1907 sling will benefit them, if they don't at least give it a try?
FWIW
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 11:56:15 AM
My standing position of the stock is significantly shorter than seated or prone.
Interesting. I found I achieved consistent NTCH by having the stock SHORTER in standing than seated/prone. Might need to play around with it a little more.
Quote from: maxwell on June 13, 2017, 12:14:22 PMHave you dry fired for the duration of the KD at the time you noticed it creeping up? I also find that body stretching due to a day shooting will allow positions that weren't possible at the start of the day, especially in a relaxed state and warmer temperatures.
Yes and no. Some days my dry fire practice enables me to do one run through of an AQT, to time. Sometimes less, sometimes I can get a few AQTs in. But never for an entire afternoon (or day), and usually not outside in the heat (unfortunately the neighbors seeing me "practicing" in the backyard might leave the wrong impression . . . . I'm a weird enough guy already). So the length of the day, the heat/sweat, and the adrenaline may have contributed.
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 01:45:49 PM
Might I recommend a 1907 sling. Preferably a Ron Brown.
Already on my list of things to get ;)
Including:
- Better stock
- better trigger
- 1907 sling
- a reloading class
Plus possibly a shooting jacket and a spotting scope. I'm contemplating getting started in High Power. But don't think I have the time for it. Before last weekend I honestly didn't think I was good enough. I still don't think I'm good enough to place high or anything, but last weekend's scores showed me I can do good enough to have fun and not make a COMPLETE fool of myself @)
SpecialK,
Interesting. I found I achieved consistent NTCH by having the stock SHORTER in standing than seated/prone. Might need to play around with it a little more.
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That is what I am trying to say. Stock is considerably shorter in standing (pos 2) and longer in seated/prone (pos 4).
UBR stocks are numbered for position. Low number = shorter stock.
In my experience (limited), getting involved with NRA or CMP HP will absolutely kick your shooting up a few levels. It is kind of hard not to improve, when some of the best shooters in the country are squadded with you at some of these matches.
Ya don't need all the Gucci gear to start out, just show up to 1 match and have fun, take it from there.
Sky is the limit.
Try a few local reduced distance matches. Most clubs have spotting scopes, or your fellow competitors will loan you one.
That is what I did. 1 local match with the Garand....then I went ALL IN.
Very happy that I did.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Specialkay on June 13, 2017, 02:35:36 PM
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 01:45:49 PM
Might I recommend a 1907 sling. Preferably a Ron Brown.
Already on my list of things to get ;)
Hey, Konrad Powers uses a web sling and does okayish. ::) I like my Ron Brown sling(s), but a good trigger (Geissele G2S on sale for $110) is money better spent, IMO.
Quote from: Specialkay on June 13, 2017, 02:35:36 PM
I'm contemplating getting started in High Power. But don't think I have the time for it. Before last weekend I honestly didn't think I was good enough. I still don't think I'm good enough to place high or anything, but last weekend's scores showed me I can do good enough to have fun and not make a COMPLETE fool of myself @)
What Chris said. Don't sweat the gear, and go shoot reduced course matches if there's something local. I've been doing that for a year at our club, and have been shooting consistent low-mid 90% scores with just Appleseed instruction. That means *nothing* for full distance courses, but it's made me a more disciplined shooter and better instructor.
Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 03:10:58 PM
Try a few local reduced distance matches. Most clubs have spotting scopes, or your fellow competitors will loan you one.
There are quite a few reduced distance events within about 45 min to an hour and a half of me (at least if ShootingSports is accurate https://www.ssusa.org/media/1536462/jun2017-ce_download.pdf), actually almost one every weekend. I contemplated showing up to one and just watching for the first go around. Would be nice to know someone going to one, but meeting people there is fine too.
Either that or joining a local range and practicing first. Seeing if I could meet someone at the local range that attended. Tough to decide.
For those contemplating getting into NRA or CMP competition, if you are on Facebook, search for the group NRA High Power shooters or community.
Introduce yourself in there and you will find likely some shooters that are close to your location.
As with any discipline, it is great to have a mentor, and that is a great place to start to find one.
OR, register for an account at US Rifleteams.com, that is the high power community forum.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Specialkay on June 13, 2017, 05:03:49 PM
There are quite a few reduced distance events within about 45 min to an hour and a half of me (at least if ShootingSports is accurate https://www.ssusa.org/media/1536462/jun2017-ce_download.pdf), actually almost one every weekend. I contemplated showing up to one and just watching for the first go around. Would be nice to know someone going to one, but meeting people there is fine too.
Either that or joining a local range and practicing first. Seeing if I could meet someone at the local range that attended. Tough to decide.
Sir Walter runs a good reduced match. There are full across the course matches at Butner, several times a year http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/newindex.htm.
Thanks for the suggestion jmdavis. I might observe the one in August, before I actually compete.
NC has several full course opportunities. I don't think I'm quite there yet, but it gets me excited of the possibilities :)
My guess is your real problem isn't where your nose is, it's where your buttstock is. When you're practicing you are placing the stock in nice and deep. For whatever reason you're placing the stock less deep in live fire and its causing your head to be closer to the scope. Doesn't really matter a great deal where it goes but be consistent.
If your head is moving forward on the stock while firing, it is either because the rifle is moving in your shoulder pocket, or because there is slack in your neck due to it not being fully extended. Check these things.