Well....this position is the Achilles heel for most shooters.
In HP it is the first stage we shoot, and pre match jitters coupled with whatever else is going on in ones head, can make this a very difficult position.
I shot a match last Friday, put up 2 misses in standing, and scored a 70(something). Not at all happy about that.
The next day I put up an 86-1X in standing, threw a 6 or two.
Sunday it was an 80.
What is going on with my standing?
Well.....A lot of it is trigger time. I find that once I get into a string, I tend to improve....most times.
Couple points I noticed with me:
1. RELAX......gotta relax, clear the mind. Only thing on my mind should be the shot I am taking, not the previous shot/s, not the forthcoming shot. The one I am taking now.
2. Get that NPOA squared away, use prep time for this. Heck, use live fire time for it as well. Eyes closed, bring rifle up, settle....open eyes, if it is not on your number board and aiming black adjust and start over. It may take more than 10 repetitions of this to get it solid. Take the time to do so, or you will be muscling shots into the 5 rings at best.
3. Become intimately familiar with the trigger. This is a must.
4. GUT the shot out.....ya gotta work for the 10's in standing. However.....don't gut it out so bad that you starve yourself for O2. Remove rifle from shoulder and start over if it ain't there.
5. CALL the shots.
6. ACCEPT YOUR wobble. Some days your wobble may be an 8 ring hold....that may be the best you can do for that day. Accept it. Cause an 8 is WAYYYYYY better than a 7, 6, 5 or worse yet a Miss.
I am happy with the 80 and 86 I put up, no misses. That is a first for me in a big match. I have in the past put up a 94 or something in live fire practice. Practice and the real deal are 2 different things.....but they really should not be. This is the mental part of the game I am still working on.
I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with standing, unsupported or supported.
Timely topic - thank you. I've been thinking about my own standing these days.
One of the things I noted was how susceptible to being buffeted by the wind when I'm standing. Even when NPOA and wobble is accounted for, it's another thing to worry about. ;D
Slowing down and not forcing the shot seems to help. Rifleman's Cadence isn't always the answer.
Good point Rusty on the wind.
If it is windy.....
First, I try to make sure that my sling is not acting like a sail. It must remain on the rifle for NRA HP, but in parade config. Cannot provide support, but it also should not be dangling loosely (legally it can be) so it acts like a sail.
To the point of accepting the wobble. The wind may be so bad that even the hardest of holders have at best a 9 ring wobble. That may mean that the novices wobble may be a 7 ring wobble. So what....the wind has leveled the playing field. Accept the wobble.
R/
Chris
I also try and fire between the shooters to the immediate left and right of me. Meaning, I won't even shoulder until they have shot so that I don't get blasted by their shot. (ps, this is in the JCG)
Quote from: navybowhunter on May 23, 2017, 08:19:04 AM
1. RELAX......gotta relax, clear the mind. Only thing on my mind should be the shot I am taking, not the previous shot/s, not the forthcoming shot. The one I am taking now.
2. Get that NPOA squared away, use prep time for this. Heck, use live fire time for it as well. Eyes closed, bring rifle up, settle....open eyes, if it is not on your number board and aiming black adjust and start over. It may take more than 10 repetitions of this to get it solid. Take the time to do so, or you will be muscling shots into the 5 rings at best.
I use all of my prep period and sometimes sighter period to get NPOA. If the rifle isn't coming up in the same spot every time, there's just no point in shooting, but even a little thing like the way I hold my fist can be the difference between a 9 and an X. Sometimes it's super frustrating to get my standing NPOA, but now that I know it really does exist, it's worth the effort!
I've been shooting mid-180s offhand (in an 80 round match), and I know I can bring that up. The key for me is to not say "Welp, there's a 7, I suck at this. Time to take what I can get" but "Hey, my NPOA is maybe off, since I know I don't have to shoot a 7." This works well until wind starts blowing me around. :)
Quote from: navybowhunter on May 23, 2017, 08:19:04 AM
3. Become intimately familiar with the trigger. This is a must.
4. GUT the shot out.....ya gotta work for the 10's in standing. However.....don't gut it out so bad that you starve yourself for O2. Remove rifle from shoulder and start over if it ain't there.
5. CALL the shots.
My practice over the winter was a half hour or so of dry fire at a 3/8" black dot on my white garage door, representing a 6.25 MOA bull. If I couldn't hold in the black, I'd switch to a blank section of the door and just practice mounting, firing, and dismounting until it "felt right." I didn't make massive gains over the winter, but I didn't lose, either, and this built confidence that I had NPOA.
I'd also practice calling shots on that black dot. You know what? I've found myself calling a mid-ring 10 at 9 on the SR-1, and actually being correct! Now if I could just get rid of those "you idiot, why did you break that 7 at 7", I'd be happier.
Anyway, I'm still a n00b at Service Rifle, so take that all with a pound of salt. I will say it has given me a measure of confidence in telling Appleseed students to find NPOA in standing; I assume most students think we're lying about it, or at least greatly overstating it, because that's what I thought as a student!
--
Adam
Right on Adam!
BTW,
There is a service rifle EIC match being held at Camp Perry on Viale range, on Electronic Targets on 17 June. There is also a GSM match same day on Petrarca, E targets as well. EIC competitors can also shoot the GSM after the EIC.
I am registered.
Anyone else going?
R/
chris
Here is some of the best standing advice I have received, from CW4 Rick Tanner (All Guard Coach and HP Rifle Team Captain).
1. Clear the mechanism - and establish your NPOA - adjust your feet to get it.
2. Focus on your front sight post.
3. Accept your wobble area, but you must train to make it smaller in order to minimize it.
4. Focus on breaking your shot when coming into the 10-ring.
5. If you try to break your shot when it looks right, you will shoot a 9......maybe even an 8 on the outside of your wobble area.
Now, what these mean.
1. You must establish NPOA on your target. You must clear your mind and focus on the middle of the target (that is where the x-ring is, right?) Do not focus on the black......focus on the middle of the black.
2. You must stay on your front sight post. Most shooters will bounce back and forth from the FSP and target and be focused on the target when they start to press the trigger. A 0.5mm pencil line on your FSP will help to force your focus onto the FSP.
3. Wobble area - everyone has one, accept it. But, you can train to keep it smaller. I have trained my wobble area to be a "lazy-8" that does not get outside the black very often. If the wind is blowing.......it will make your position a little bumpier than normal, but it does the same for everyone. Train for it.
4/5. With your wobble area, if you start to press the trigger when the sight picture looks right, your shot will break outside of the 10 ring. Because your rifle is moving past the middle of the target when you start to apply pressure to the trigger. You must train to break your shot as you are "coming-into" the middle of the target. If you wait until the sight picture looks right, your wobble area will take the FSP out of the middle and your shot will break wide.
When calling your shots, most shooters will shoot outside of their call. Far fewer shooters will shoot inside their call when standing. This is purely due to the wobble area.
Most people do not spend much time training standing, because they don't shoot it very well. This is all the more reason to train it. I have shot in plenty of matches where the deciding factors at the end of a week worth of shooting is how well the shooter shot on their feet. Most shoot well on their belly........get off your belly and shoot sitting / kneeling / standing......and that is a discriminator. Just train it more! I still only shoot about 1 round for every 50 dryfire shots. Being able to build your position, establish your NPOA, and focus you mind are keys.
When you do bring up your rifle to make a shot, remember that you are in control if it! If your FSP is not in the middle then don't press the trigger. HP gives you all day to shoot standing. However, you will fatigue if you try and take all the time allotted. Bring your rifle up, trust your position you established, focus on your front sight post, and break the shot in the middle of the black.......that is where the x-ring is. If you shoot for x's and break wide.......you still catch a 10, maybe a small 9.
If you do break an 8, or a 7......that is ok. You must clear the mechanism and put the next one in the middle!!
Train this technique and your standing scores will improve.
You have to absolutely love this game!
BTW - Chief Tanner just lost a long and drawn-out fight with cancer and we buried him a few short weeks ago. I had the privilege of being coached by him, shooting with him, and knowing him. I am better for it!
Have a Great American Day!
Should also mention - if you want to shoot better standing scores.......get an air rifle. (daisy 853 is inexpensive and works great).
An air rifle is quite unforgiving in standing. It will force you to get better, or you will cut it into little pieces on your chopsaw!!
There is quite a difference in standing follow-through with a pellet going 600FPS down the barrel compared to a 75grainer going down the barrel at 2750FPS.
Don't underestimate the training value!!
Developing the ability to shoot well in the standing position takes more than dry firing and live fire practice.
I started my training in early January to get ready for the shooting season. My training started with a lead weight that was about 12 pounds. It was a roll of sheet lead, wrapped in tape, that was awkward to hold but not impossible. I would pick up that weight and carry it for an hour each day. The only rule was that I couldn't put it down or rest it on anything. I could raise my hand and support it like a support hand holds a rifle. I could let it hang at my side and I could switch hands as much as I liked. I just couldn't put it down. After a few days of doing this I would get bored and start doing arm curls and holding the weight at arms length for longer times. This will build up your arms and back but most of all it builds your core because it keeps you off balance. By March I was tossing it in the air and catching it.
We started shooting around the end of March and that Garand (we didn't have AR's back then) didn't seem so heavy when I started dry firing and working on my positions.
If you get a good standing position and settle in on the bull you will start wobbling in and out of the black. If you insist on shooting that way you need to apply pressure on the trigger as you are coming into the target. I gave that up about the time I made Master. I would take a couple deep breaths as I was bringing the rifle up and let the last breath out as I was settling into position. When the sight post was just above the black I would cut off my exhale by closing my throat, stopping the rifle from settling any more while I checked my position and if everything felt right I would focus down range to make sure I was on my target. I would then bring my focus back to the post , let out a little more air and settle into the black as I pressed on the trigger. Looking down range and refocusing on the front sight last ensured that my focus was sharp and clear when I broke the shot. Settling above the black and checking my position affirmed that every thing was right. Letting out a little more air allowed me to settle into the black as I fired with no wobble. You don't wobble as you are settling so why not take advantage of it. If the shot didn't break as I was entering the black I would take my finger off the trigger and start the process over.
Congratulations to navybowhunter for the clean at 300. Well done.
Doug
VAshooter nailed it. I can't agree more. There is much more to improving your standing scores than dry fire and live fire. There are few that will put in the effort necessary to make that improvement.
I have grown to shoot my standing shots when settling on the target also. Thanks for that input.
I continue to be a student and seek out the high-masters and ask many questions. Then I try these varying techniques and have found a couple that work well for me. I don't consistently put up Master level scores while standing, but continue to work at it. I do consistently put up those scores across the course though.
The techniques described will help improve the standing scores. To get to the Master level scores consistently on your feet takes more work and training than most are willing to commit.
Like the forum and the inputs! Keep them flowing!
Job 38:3
All GREAT Stuff....
I'm still working on my standing, but I am done missing at standing! That is a good thing.
OK, on the scopes and the 200 yard standing target.
This is being discussed amongst High Masters, one of them being a personal friend.
Gary suggests....not looking at the reticle. Things changed a LOT with the optic. He says when he stares at the reticle (which for 99.89% of us not born with talent) which will never stop moving.
The target however is stationary, that aiming black ain't moving at all.
He is staring at the target, and when the reticle enters, he takes the shot.
I haven't tried this yet, I may try it Saturday at Quantico during the Remember The Brave 800 AGG match.
Thoughts?
Gary is applying the Zins method of using a dot to the rifle. It can work. I don't think that you have to focus on one over the other. But you must be consistent for the position and focus on one.
I used to think that the main reasons that pistol shooters shot well with the rifle was trigger control. I still do, but I also believe that the pistol experience of applying a systematic approach to the process plays a big role.
I am out of my element when shooting with optics. I was a supported military shooter and shot what they gave me which always had iron sights.
After I retired I shot some small bore silhouette and, of course, I used a scope for that. I would ask the best shooters what they focused on and they all gave me dumb looks and evaded answering me. I'm not sure if they didn't know what they did or if they thought they had a secret and didn't want the competition to find out what it was.
Eventually I settled on focusing on the target and guiding the dot into the target as I pressed on the trigger. That worked well for me and in one match I ran fifteen turkeys in a row on a windy day. My technique for shooting standing in heavy wind was to grasp the rifle with my support hand and pull it back into my shoulder hard and put the dot in the center of the critter while pressing the trigger quickly. It helps to develop a pissed off attitude when shooting in the wind. You make the rifle do what you want it to do. I must admit, I am still proud of that string of turkeys. Anyone who has fired a silhouette match will know what I mean.
Shoot well.
Doug
I am trying to refine my standing sling position. I shoot at 27 yards with 1 inch red dots as target. I am shooting a CZ452 bolt with Eley subsonic hollow points. I get about 1" groups sitting and prone and under time with magazine changes. I am not too concerned now, as I have been practicing for months with dry fire. Saturday I was shooting standing with sling and getting vertical strings just left of the red dot. I checked NPOA and adjusted back foot position. Next, I was getting a "U" shaped group just under the red dot. My sling and support hand are not exactly comfortable and I have adjusted sling several times.
I would appreciate any sources for group and position analyses for standing with a bolt action.
Rap,
It's nearly impossible to diagnose without watching you shoot, but here is are a couple of thoughts. My most basic question: How far forward is your support hand? The more vertical your support arm bones are, the more stable you can be. That's why NRA and CMP competitors can shoot so accurately even without a sling. Notice that their hands are right up against the mag well or trigger guard, and the back of the triceps, or even the support elbow, is against the rib cage.
If the support arm is extended, then your arm and shoulder muscles are holding the weight of the rifle. Inevitably, you will tire quickly. If the support arm bones are nearly vertical, the arm hangs from the shoulder - i.e., your bones are taking the weight of the rifle and you can relax the arm quite a bit.
In Appleseed we have the advantage that as we drop the support elbow and move the hand back, the sling naturally tightens and pulls the weight of the rifle into the body. This helps to lock the rifle in position.
This past weekend I scored a bunch of AQTs with lots of lost points in Standing at 5-7 o'clock in the 3 zone, or even below the scoring area. The shooters were failing to rest adequately between shots and their ability to hold the front sight on the 5-ring diminished quickly.
Rap,
Scroll to the top of this post, and read the responses. Your answer is in the responses. Bolt gun, semi auto, makes no difference.
There are books written on just standing!
I also have another standing post in here, explaining how to shoot standing without the sling. Personally, I feel the sling can be a detriment shooting standing, firemanbob mentioned "bringing it all into the chest", I'm more stable without being strung out with my support arm and a sling.
Zoom in on my forum profile picture, no sling.
R/
Chris