The AR pistols are kind of an odd duck. A creature made to fit a niche in U.S. law. There has been some back and forth as to the legality of shouldering the "arm braces" that are on the market, but the ATF has unambiguously stated that you can shoulder the buffer tube with no brace or stock on it without any legal pitfall. Now, having recently moved from a state that forbids the AR pistol entirely to one that allows them, I have bought one.
I have been working with this new odd gun. So far just dry fire to familiarize myself with it and to work out the sling set up and establish shooting position and NPOA. As I work through this, I more or less go through a series of dry fire that isn't so different from an appleseed course of fire.
This brings me to my question. Has anybody shot rifleman with an AR pistol? Any casual AQT anecdotes? Do any of you here have these, and what are your thoughts on them? I see people who dismiss them as range toys, and others who view them as rifles with an odd feel that you can work around in order to operate within the arbitrary laws.
The law in my state forbids a loaded long gun in a vehicle (grossly over simplified, but that's the gist of it) but an AR pistol is ok with a pistol permit. Likewise I could carry one in a backpack with a concealed carry permit. I don't intend to carry this day to day and don't see any reason why I might carry something other than a handgun. I'm not trying to start that debate. None the less, the fact that this gun has greater legal versatility than a traditional rifle makes me want to understand it better. In that context, I plan to learn the strengths and limitations of this gun including running it through the AQT. Has such been done "for score?" For a patch???
I haven't played with AR pistols, so my only 2 cents to throw in the pot are to mention that pistols as a category are not permitted at Appleseed shoots (the occasional Pistolseed excluded, obviously), so I doubt that you'll find anyone that's done an official AQT with one.
From an "on your own time & just for the heck of it" standpoint, shooting with a brace might enable you to effectively hit the target. Not sure if you could get a comfortable/effective cheek weld, though. The pistol length barrel would of course reduce your velocity, but probably not of much concern at 25 meters. Shooting full distance could be a handful. Would be fun to try, but not official.
I can see a .300blk AR pistol having some practical merit, but not so much for .223/5.56. Too much velocity lost for that small projectile.
In my opinion, a 16", mid-length configuration is the sweet-spot for the AR platform. I've Fire a few AR pistols, but they do nothing for me over a Mk18-type SBR, which I find only slightly better than an M4.
Quote from: jlwilliams on May 13, 2017, 07:13:08 PM
<snip>
This brings me to my question. Has anybody shot rifleman with an AR pistol? Any casual AQT anecdotes? Do any of you here have these, and what are your thoughts on them? I see people who dismiss them as range toys, and others who view them as rifles with an odd feel that you can work around in order to operate within the arbitrary laws.
The law in my state forbids a loaded long gun in a vehicle (grossly over simplified, but that's the gist of it) but an AR pistol is ok with a pistol permit. Likewise I could carry one in a backpack with a concealed carry permit. I don't intend to carry this day to day and don't see any reason why I might carry something other than a handgun. I'm not trying to start that debate. None the less, the fact that this gun has greater legal versatility than a traditional rifle makes me want to understand it better. In that context, I plan to learn the strengths and limitations of this gun including running it through the AQT. Has such been done "for score?" For a patch???
Sir,
Speaking as an owner of a couple of AR pistols and two SBRs, they are a heck of a lot of fun! I've been able to maintain 4MOA groups with bulk 5.56 ammo and my 10.5" barrel. 7" barrel is tougher but probably achievable with ammo that finds a sweet spot.
Until the recent ATF declaration that it was okay to shoulder a pistol brace, it wasn't practical to use an AR pistol in our style of shooting (slung up, rifle in the shoulder pocket.) Now that restriction of shouldering a brace is lifted, we might start seeing them on the line. (http://www.914world.com/bbs2/style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
MO
Quote from: Matt8531 on May 13, 2017, 08:40:14 PM
I can see a .300blk AR pistol having some practical merit, but not so much for .223/5.56. Too much velocity lost for that small projectile.
In my opinion, a 16", mid-length configuration is the sweet-spot for the AR platform. I've Fire a few AR pistols, but they do nothing for me over a Mk18-type SBR, which I find only slightly better than an M4.
Personal observation leads me to believe that the primary reason manufacturers bother with them is demand for convenient SBRs. Same reason people buy Scorpion EVOs or Vectors as pistols instead of 16" rifles. Easier to slap on a stock than to deal with a barrel that's suddenly too long when ATF issues your stamp.
In turn, suppressors have a lot to do with
that demand, in my opinion. A 6"-7" suppressor on a 16" barrel with a carbine stock is
super long compared to an 11.5" barrel, especially if you are shooting quickly at short distances while maneuvering around obstacles (i.e. you are taking a carbine class). AR pistols are path of least resistance to getting a short, suppressed rifle.
Edit: while I'm on a roll, I think that same short/suppressed end-state is driving demand for .223 brakes to some degree. A boom loudener don't realistically help .223 that much, but it makes a
sweet sacrificial baffle if (for some reason) you are concerned about your can's longevity.
The fact that the AAC Blastout exists (http://www.advanced-armament.com/BlastOut_p_709.html) is evidence that .223 brakes without a suppressor are more hassle than benefit, IMO.
Quote from: Kennebago on May 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
The fact that the AAC Blastout exists (http://www.advanced-armament.com/BlastOut_p_709.html) is evidence that .223 brakes without a suppressor are more hassle than benefit, IMO.
"Excuse me, sir... would you like a muzzle device for your muzzle device?" ;D
I thought They were ordered to stop making these?
Quote from: Charles McKinley on May 14, 2017, 06:57:52 PM
I thought They were ordered to stop making these?
Stop making what? AR pistols or muzzle devices?
Thanks for all the responses thus far.
Maximum Ordinate, how far have you shot yours and in what calibers?
Quote from: jlwilliams on May 14, 2017, 10:25:05 PM
Thanks for all the responses thus far.
Maximum Ordinate, how far have you shot yours and in what calibers?
Mine are all 5.56. I'm collecting parts for a .300BO, as I can find parts on sale. I'm not in a hurry as I don't reload for that caliber yet.
I've taken my 10.5" out to 600y, but the groups were not great. 55g ammo and the winds were a challenge to call. I've had my own 7" barrels out to 300y.
That said, on a calm day in Rising Fawn, Georgia last year I was shooting Ramblin' Wreck's AR pistol. 8" barrel I think, but I don't recall who made it. Once I got the holdover right, I could ring steel at 500. Maybe he'll chime in with details.
MO is correct although it pains me to admit he shot my rifle more accurately than I did. AT THE TIME. ::) Mine is Davidson Defense Premium Billet .223 Wilde 7.5" Phosphate Quad Rail kit I bought for $205. I have it zeroed for 300 yards so hold low closer than that. I built it strictly for portability/concealability. It's not meant to supplant any of my "rifleman" guns. Collapsed it's 18" and extended it's just under 26". If I shortened the "brace" it could be shorter overall extended but there is no advantage to doing that. It travels nicely in a Maxpedition pack that I carry anywhere it wouldn't appear out of place. ;D Just this morning I put in a bid on Gunbroker for a 7.5" 300 Blackout assembled upper, less BCG and charging handle, that I should win for under $200. I'm looking for a wider range of ammo options and I already have the dies to reload for it.(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l502/Ramblinwreck77/Appleseed%20Events/AR%20Pistol/IMG_3170_zpslrn0gzvb.jpg)
Folded it's 18 inches.
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l502/Ramblinwreck77/Appleseed%20Events/AR%20Pistol/IMG_3171_zpsfon2ayqx.jpg)
Extended it's just under 26"
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l502/Ramblinwreck77/Appleseed%20Events/AR%20Pistol/IMG_3176_zps3hsmcdpp.jpg)
Pack is a bit heavy with the pistol and six 30 round and one 20 round mag but still better than a handgun in case of the need for social work.
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l502/Ramblinwreck77/Appleseed%20Events/AR%20Pistol/IMG_3174_zps6thwfgf7.jpg)
The Ol Wreck
PS - I hate the text editor we have to use on this forum.
Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on May 15, 2017, 10:17:19 AM
Quote from: jlwilliams on May 14, 2017, 10:25:05 PM
Thanks for all the responses thus far.
Maximum Ordinate, how far have you shot yours and in what calibers?
Mine are all 5.56. I'm collecting parts for a .300BO, as I can find parts on sale. I'm not in a hurry as I don't reload for that caliber yet.
I've taken my 10.5" out to 600y, but the groups were not great. 55g ammo and the winds were a challenge to call. I've had my own 7" barrels out to 300y.
That said, on a calm day in Rising Fawn, Georgia last year I was shooting Ramblin' Wreck's AR pistol. 8" barrel I think, but I don't recall who made it. Once I got the holdover right, I could ring steel at 500. Maybe he'll chime in with details.
Outstanding. Thank you.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on May 14, 2017, 06:57:52 PM
I thought They were ordered to stop making these?
Sorry I was thinking of the Sig muzzle brake that the ATF said was a silencer part.