Figure there are enough 10/22 shooters in this forum, maybe I will get an answer.
Here is the deal, on my somewhat "accurized" 10/22, about 98% of the time I am unable to extract a "live round" from the chamber. An example of this would be say a "Cease fire" was given for whatever reason during an AQT, I drop the mag, and cycle the bolt to eject the live round. Bolt comes back, live round remains. Let bolt slam home with the full weight of itself, pull it back...same thing the live round remains in the chamber. Ask LB if I can discharge into the berm at that point.
Rifle Specs:
- 10/22 standard receiver
- Volquartsen (VQ) match grade .920" bull barrel
- Bolt face has been trued (via machining by a reputable 10/22 gunsmith) *Note on this....my tech sighted 10/22 has a standard Ruger barrel, and a trued bolt face...don't have this issue with that one*
- Extractor is a Volquartsen (EDM)
- Firing pin is "pinned via a weld" to alleviate firing pin jump
- Trigger group housing is stock
- Trigger group guts are VQ
- Auto release modification has been performed
- Extended mag release has been added
I do seem to remember that VQ has in the instructions for the barrel to never ever chamber CCI Stingers. I have been only shooting CCI SV out of that barrel.
Barrel has 250 rounds thru it MAX
I do remember calling VQ about this a few years ago. They said it is a "match" chamber and takes some time to break in. OK...I can believe that. But how many rounds would be considered "broken in"?
I've tried the swapping extractor to the stock Ruger extractor with the same issue.
Have any of you had a similar issue? What was the fix?
Don't "Cringe" at the next thing I am considering....
On my AR10 (it is a POF 308 piston rifle), routine cleaning....POF recommends one use a chamber brush attached to a drill to clean the chamber. I've done it numerous times with that chamber and have not had a single issue with that rifle.
Would that be something maybe I should do with this VQ barrel? Have any of you done that?
I'm also thinking JB bore paste in the chamber?
The above 2 ideas would mean I need to remove the barrel from the receiver, no issues doing that if I need to.
Appreciate the responses.
R/
Chris
You've already done what fixed that problem for me, which was adding the VQ extractor, so I have no good ideas other than to call volquartsen and see what they say. As you say the chamber is supposed to be tight but not to the point where you can't extract a round.
It's entirely possible your chamber was cut a little tight. However, it might be something else. Match 22 barrels can develop the dreaded carbon ring far faster than stock barrels. The carbon ring can easily cause a failure to extract of a live round, rob you of accuracy, or even cause feeding/misfire issues.
Frequent scrubbing with a .22 bronze brush and some solvent will keep it at bay. Bend the brush at 90 degrees to get into the chamber. Gunsmither (google them) also makes a nice dedicated brush for this.
Once the carbon starts to build up, it's tough to knock down. The carbon ring isn't just carbon, but can contain bits of lead and copper as well. I ended up pulling my Feddersen barrel, plugging one end, and filling it with Kroil. It soaked for an afternoon, then I scrubbed the heck out of it. That solved my problem.
A quick search of RFC will give lots of info on carbon rings.
Hope this helps.
-Rusty
Thanks Rusty and Scott,
Yeah....not overly concerned with carbon ring, although it could be an issue. Only saying that cause it has no more than 200 rounds down it.
I'll do a search for the brushes you recommend Rusty.
Returning the barrel is an option, but the least desirable.
It is a TIGHT match chamber. Wondering if different ammo would produce the same issue. Match grade Federal, RWS or similar?
It's a "nuisance".
But the rifle is very accurate.
R/
Chris
I've installed 3 different Green Mountain Barrels over the years on my Ruger 10/22's.
Pro: Very accurate.
Con: Will NOT extract a live round out of the chamber with a Ruger or Volquartzen extractor. I believe this is noted on their product description and on their newer barrels.
A narrow bladed pocket knife can extract the round if firing is not feasible. Insert along top edge of receiver, slide to the chamber, twist clockwise so the blade catches under the rim, continue to gently twist and remove the live round. (Note: my narrow blade is 5/16" at its widest point)
This tight chamber is a significant source of the accuracy, thus I am not looking for a way to eliminate the tight chamber. Instead I focus on getting my act together so I can reliably get all my rounds off in every stage. Then I only have the issue if there is an unusual cease fire, and dealing with it at that point is a few seconds with the blade.
Thanks Eaglescouter!
Yeah that is an option. But, from my "Appleseed Students" perspective, it could also be deemed a "Safety Issue"/"Rifle Malfunction" from an RSO/Line Boss or Shoot Boss perspective as well. Meaning: Rifle is not operating as designed.
This is very low on my priority list of "things to fix", but am wondering what others are doing with similar issue. Thanks!
Ammo is another question I have. Wondering if some ammo may work better for "extraction" than others. As stated, the ammo I was using is CCI SV.
R/
Chris
Mine behave the same with the following ammunition choices:
Eley Sport
CCI Std Velocity
CCI Mini Mags
Aguila
Wolf Match
Wolf Match Extra
Peters
I would notify the shoot boss of the specifics on my rifle and run with it.
Or not notify, and place myself at the far right or far left so I can deal with it before the RSO gets to my rifle so I don't hold up the line.
Tight chamber. Keep a rod and a multi-tool nearby. I have seen this happen with a lot of match chambered semis. One thing that you can do is bend a 25 caliber brush to the length of a .22. Insert it into the chamber and use first a CW/CCW motion and then some in and out. Waxy ammo can foul the area in front of the chamber. You may also have a lead ring due to insufficient leade. But try the brush method. And follow it with a dry patch on a patch worm.
You should be able to have a round drop in and out of the chamber freely. But you might have to experiment with ammo choices.
Kroil cuts wax and carbon fouling VERY well.
I had the same problem with a green mountain barrel.
Started with the volquartson extractor.
I used the drill, bronze brush, JB bore paste and kroil.
It did not get fixed in one session.
A brand new out of the box Green Mountain barrel does not eject live rounds.
It even says so right on the barrel.
(http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50173.0;attach=141580;image)
This is not something that needs to be 'fixed'.
A tight chamber is part of the accuracy that you do not get from Ruger.
It is not caused by wax rings, nor carbon rings.
Notify the shoot boss, place yourself at the far right or far left of the line and carry on because all is normal. This piece of equipment is performing as expected and as designed.
I have a number of match barrels and waxy ammo plays havoc with them. What I do not have is a match barrel on a 10/22. But I do have them on my Compass Lake Upper, my 540x, Anschutz 54SR, my insert for my 45/70, and my target pistols. A round should be able to drop in and out of a barrel. That's how I determine if they are clear of fouling.
With a chamber that tight FTFs and FTEs are problems waiting to happen.
Chris, have you tried federal auto match. CCI std was the longest ammo I tested when measuring a variety of target ammo.
With my 45 conversion, the recommend 300-500 rounds of faster ammunition for break in.
Worst case if you want to pull the barrel and send it to me I can look at it in the borescope and see if anything comes to light.
Quote from: Agrivere on December 11, 2016, 09:13:32 PM
Worst case if you want to pull the barrel and send it to me I can look at it in the borescope and see if anything comes to light.
Science experiment!!!
I had the same issue with my GM barrel.
Cleaned it
Bot the Exact edge extractor
Polished chamber
had a gun smith look it over.
Bot The ER Shaw barrel and never had a problem. Shoots minute of squirrel.
I use the GM barrel to stir paint.
2 clicks low
Thanks all. Mike I had no idea CCI SV was a tad long. CCI SV is the only ammo I have shot thru that barrel.
Scott, I'll take you up on that. I'll hit you up on FB messenger for your address.
R/
Chris
Chris, you have a dirty chamber. Match barrels have very low tolerance for the carbon ring, and depending on the ammo it might take a few as 100 shots before you need to scrub the chamber properly.
I have used several products successfully to clean the chamber quickly:
Bore-Kleen carbon killer
Slip 2000 Carbon killer
Bore-Kleen rimfire blend
It's important to wet the chamber thoroughly and let the solvent sit for a minute before scrubbing, to allow the chemicals to do their work.
Then use a bronze chamber brush. You can make one from a rifle-size .243 brush bent at a right angle, so that you can do it through the ejection port. Work it in with a twisting motion, then work it back out the same way. The twisting allows the bristles to turn around and scrubs.
I also have success with VFG extreme pellets (with the brass fibers) and JB Bore Paste. That method is the quickest.
One the chamber is scrubbed, I run a dry patch on a Patchworm from the muzzle to the chamber, so I'm not dragging the crud through the bore.
Thanks Bob,
Chamber is clean. But...maybe it has some carbon I'm not seeing. This has been an issue since I first started shooting the barrel.
They are known to be very tight. It is a good thing.
I have the Kroil/VFG pellets as well, but I'll likely hold off on that till Aggrivere takes a look at it with his hi tech borescope.
I have not tried any other ammo either, Mikes point above could also be a cure.
The rifle and chamber have been religiously cleaned after shooting. So....we'll see what Scott's hi fallutin borescope reveals.
R/
Chris
Chris, see my ammo post here.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=49542.0
***************
Blazer and SV work fine most of the time.
But after repeated failures of SV in the match chambers of my pistols, I spent some time measuring and examining quantities of it. Diameterwise, SV is good to go. Length on the other hand is a problem. I will post below the measurements that I took from samples of numerous 22 ammunition. If you have a tight chamber, you should pay attention to the results.
Several of the team that I shoot with use the same pistol. To successfully use CCI SV with it, we must run the ammo through a sizing die to shorten the OAL at the bullet end. At 25 yards and 50 feet this makes no accuracy difference. But it improves reliability dramatically.
Here are the results of a sample of 5 rounds from each type from multiple boxes.
CCI Std paper box
.980
.980
.986
.985
.986
Eley Club
.974
.9745
.974
.975
.976
Federal 711 this is white box and not 711b
.980
.981
.982
.978
.979
SK Std Plus
.978
.980
.980
.978
.980
Norma TAC Match (RWS)
.964
.965
.967
.965
.966
And the surprise of the night, 1995 Remington White Box from CMP
.979
.981
.978
.979
.977
I found that the ammo over .983 didn't fit in my mags or would tend to stick. The mags were freshly cleaned by the way.
Saying all of that my go to ammo of choice when I have a tight chamber or magazine is Norma Tac which is made by RWS (has the RWS headstamp). Finally, if the ammo is sticking in the mags, it is too long. If you encounter that issue, clean the mags with solvent, let the dry, relube them and try again.
I'll check that post Mike.
Interesting on the length of the SV.
The VQ instructions specifically state do not use CCI Stingers. Guess the case is a bit longer in them.
I'm gonna read the other post now.
Would the brass itself, show any indications of the chamber being too short for the brass? Meaning...the top of the case rolls a bit?
Never did think to look at any of the ejected brass.
I've had a "few" FTF's with this rifle as well. But nothing to cause me to have great concern. It is a .22 rimfire.
Appreciate the info and your research!
R/
Chris
I don't think that the brass will show any signs of weirdness.
I'm gonna get a box of Eley Club and the Norma (RWS) stuff and see what that does in my chamber.
If it will eject a live round, whalla! Problem solved.
If not....I'll press on with more troubleshooting.
Question....There is a sizing die for .22 rimfire? How are you sizing them?
Thanks Mike!
It shortens the bullet.they are still accurate at 50 feet and 25 yards
'Hunter, I had the same issue with my 2nd Feddersen barrel (no issues with the first one). The barrel had a HUGE amount of heavy oil in it and took extensive scrubbing to get it out before I shot it. I may have pulled some crud into the chamber and then "baked it in" with my first few rounds. Used the JB's on it (chamber only) and problem corrected, haven't had an issue since and no change in accuracy.
You can also have the rear of the reciever drilled to allow cleaning from the chamber side without removing the barrel.
A tight chamber may also cause a firing out of battery issue as well.
Update.....
My previous Volquartsen barrel would not eject a live round. Very tight match chamber, no carbon ring at all. Had barely been fired (100 ish rounds maybe).
The new THM Volquartsen lightweight barrel, most definitely allows me to eject a live round with no issues. It does have the upgraded EDM machined extractor.
So...., it really comes down to how tight the chamber is, at least that was it in my case.
R/
Chris
Chris, I had the same issue on a friend's VQ barreled 10/22, here is what we discovered.
Being a typical Mechanical Engineer, I sometimes get to a point where I only believe what I can see. We did all the typical cleaning, pollishing, Kroilling, etc with no gain. I began to wonder if the extractor was even grabbing the case so we put a touch of Prussian Blue on the "hook" of the extractor, stuffed a fired case into the chamber (with the firing pin strike lined up with the pin), dropped the bolt and tried to extract it. The case stayed in the chamber. Next we locked the bolt back, cleared the round with a rod ... no bluing on the underside of the rim. We then proceeded to grind (by minute amounts) the front face of the extractor to get it to match the angle of the extractor slot in the barrel face (we reinstalled and tried the fired case trick after every grind). After removing a relatively small amount of steel (probably no more than a couple of thousandths), the extractor actually worked. Don't know if this will work for you but it is a test that is easily done and may show that there is enough interference in the extractor slot to keep it from working. Just my $0.02 worth!
Thanks Dracomeister! wow....leave it to a brother CPO to figure all that out!~
I suspect that would have alleviated my issue with the heavy VQ barrel. I did sell that barrel, to help fund the new sporter build.
Issue is gone, but I definitely think you are onto something there!
R/
Chris