Well.....this will be all about establishing Grip!
I will refer only to the AR15, with a standard grip for this post.
I mean....it has finger grooves right? Sounds elementary doesn't it?
After competing for maybe 2 seasons..., I decided to join a team. I joined the VA team, even though I am a MD resident. VA is actually a bit closer to me than the MD team....and I kinda like the guys on the VA team. One of them being JMDavis.
JMDavis and a few others...., approached me maybe after seeing me shoot, maybe after seeing one of my cheesey You Tube videos. Regardless..., they pointed out that my GRIP was pathetic.....they were kinda nice about it..., but it is what it is, or was what it was in this case.
I was told to approach a certain shooter. Her name is Denise Loring. You all can google her.., she is very well known in the shooting community. I was told to approach her and "Ask her about my Grip"! LOL
I felt a bit embarrassed, like maybe I was being setup for some sort of a joke. It was definitely not the case.
At Camp Butner, CMP Eastern Games...Denise was staying in the same hotel as me. I introduced myself, and explained what my tasking was. She was in a room with several other High Master shooters. They laughed.., but knew what the drill was.
Denise asked me to grasp her hand like I would the grip of my A2. I did..., she laughed...and said..."Oh HELL NO! Your not guiding a toddler across the street here, you are shooting a service rifle"!
She then grabbed my hand....and it was akin to a lumberjacks handshake! LOL
WOW! Then the other guys taught me some more stuff....one thing being adjusting my trigger...another topic.
I also have heard this term in the HP community, it is "Hold Hard"! Ever hear someone say that? They say that term anytime a friend is getting ready to shoot a match, "Hold Hard my friend, good luck!"
I thought that meant..."Hard on the front sight". I mean....sorta like our Appleseed term about the 6 steps..., keep your mind focused on keeping that eye on the FSP.
NOPE!
Took another DR to teach me that. He is a Judge in VA...a very accomplished shooter as well.
Gary said to me during a training session one day a few months ago.....
"Chris, do you know what a HARD HOLDER is?"
Test time...I hate them...and do not like to guess, especially in the company of a Judge! I told Gary I thought....it meant intense focus on the front sight.
He said...HELL NO, Front sight focus, is what it is. Simple.
Holding hard...starts with the grip. Then..., holding it HARD back into the shoulder. That simple. I did that, standing scores rose.
GRIP pressure is different for all positions. I mean, it is imperative in the rapids to have a tight grip. Maybe not so much in slow prone. It is definitely not "a toddlers hands grip" though.
Here is a video of Denise "Holding Hard"! She cleaned that target. I set it to music.., but it is very cool.
That arm "Flick" she does, I've noticed a LOT do. My friend the Judge above, and several others. JMDavis posted a video on my FB page a little while back of a world class shooter shooting a team match in standing...and I noticed the same "arm flick".
Anyways..., that is my words on GRIP and Holding Hard. It is important. Here is the WAY cool video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3YKN44N2kY
R/
Chris
The above video is an NRA Match. No transitions in an NRA match.
R/
Chris
Col. Loring's advice helped lead me to my first cleans (100-5x, 100-6x, 100-4x) in sitting in highpower competition. High and firm grip, pull the rifle into the shoulder. You may also want a little pinch on the forearm, but my sling and glove hold my hand so that I have to extricate myself at the end if the string.
Another thing is to watch the patience with which she sets her position and fires. It is not a cadence, it is a sight picture that leads to the gun firing even though the trigger keeps moving. Just don't spend your time woo prying about whether you are firing a shot every three seconds. Shoot good shots and you will have good results.
Thanks for posting this. I too have heard the phrase "hold hard," and like you thought it pertained to focusing on the front sight and/or focusing your mind on keeping the front sight on the target.
Using a firm grip and pulling the rifle into your should makes sense. After all if the rifle's position in your shoulder shifts then so does the point of impact, or at least is does in my experience.
I am looking forward to trying this at the next opportunity.
How much pulling is too much, though? Isn't the sling supposed to do that? Pulling the rifle back into the shoulder uses muscle, and it's really hard to do that consistently. I think pulling it back is even trickier with the AR than with the M1, since you have more leverage with the low-hanging pistol grip and little changes in muscle tension can cause a big POI shift.
Maxwell wrote:
QuoteHow much pulling is too much, though? Isn't the sling supposed to do that? Pulling the rifle back into the shoulder uses muscle, and it's really hard to do that consistently. I think pulling it back is even trickier with the AR than with the M1, since you have more leverage with the low-hanging pistol grip and little changes in muscle tension can cause a big POI shift.
I will only say this. When I upgraded to what Col. Loring and the National Champions that I know told me (and 3 of them told me the same thing), I started shooting cleans in practice and in my very next match at 200 yards and 300 yards. Before that I had never cleaned a single rapid target at either 200 or 300 though I had shot some 99's at 200 and a 98 at 300 in the NTI a couple of years ago. Cleaning the rapids started leading to Master class scores of 94%+ for Highpower matches.
The secret is a high and firm grip that you then pull into the shoulder. It is not terribly tricky and the results speak for themselves.
It is using "muscles".
But as JmDavis mentions, it damn sure works and works well.
Give it a try for yourself, it really is the only way to figure it out.
In standing as well, I "pull it back", not necessarily as much as in the rapids, but damn close.
Prone, the grip loosens up a bit.
But that is just me.
R/
Chris
You are using some muscular tension in every position. It ranges from a low of slow prone to a high of standing. But if you pay attention to your body you will feel tensions when you are doing everything correctly.
Pistol on the other hand is all about tension. You can't hold your arm up without it. It's also about grip tension, which can change there depending on the type of grips used (orthapedic vs. conventional), the caliber/recoil, and the stage (sustained fire vs. slow fire).
The reason for a firmer grip in the rapids with the rifle is faster recoil recovery leading to more time to make the shot rather than waiting for the rifle to come out of recoil. The results speak for themselves.
So...all of this is pretty much "advanced" stuff. I'm kind of lazy, but maybe here in a bit I'll look at our IM, and see what if anything it mentions about this topic.
Don't take this the wrong way. My posts are written with an assumption in my mind. I assume that the people reading are already qualified Appleseed Rifleman.
OK...so you did score 210 out of 250 on the AQT, maybe even qualified KD. Likely several times, over and over.
But...was every shot a "V"? Was it a perfect 250? Or for "hits count" KD a perfect 40?
Things can always get better. That's all this and a few other of my posts are alluding to. For those looking to kick it up a notch, this stuff will definitely help. For those that are content, just scroll past. That is the beauty of these forums.
Ya kinda got to try it though. You will never know unless you try it. I'm not trying to convince any of the people reading this to get into the NRA or CMP stuff. But if you have a little bit of "competiveness" in you, you may want to give this stuff a try. It really does work.
I'm only competing against myself, that is one thing that took me a bit to realize.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 21, 2016, 02:09:21 PM
But...was every shot a "V"? Was it a perfect 250? Or for "hits count" KD a perfect 40?
[…]
Ya kinda got to try it though. You will never know unless you try it. I'm not trying to convince any of the people reading this to get into the NRA or CMP stuff. But if you have a little bit of "competiveness" in you, you may want to give this stuff a try. It really does work.
I'm only competing against myself, that is one thing that took me a bit to realize.
Well…I qualified with 185/200 on my second KD AQT last summer (39/40 on "hits count"). My first attempt had better stages 1-3, but I didn't have dope at 400 and my ballistics calculator was way off (I had a nice group, just 16 inches high). I'm with you on this, though: I know I can shoot better than I do now, and I'm trying to make that happen. Whatever I learn here or elsewhere, I'll pass it on to others as well. My questions here were not rhetorical or smartassery, either; I really want to know, as I have problems figuring out how hard to pull back in prone.
Quantifying all this is hard, though. We tell people to use a firm handshake grip, pulling the butt of the rifle firmly or snugly back into your shoulder pocket (this is correct according to the IM). As a newbie Appleseed shooter last year, I saw an instructor demo this using a three-finger-tip grip on a .22, to avoid dragging wood. That worked for me on .22, but I never reconciled it with "firm handshake," and it was a habit I had to break for centerfire. Anyone have good analogies for teaching grip apart from "firm handshake?"
I don't take it as "Smartassery", LOL
OK...first, all instructors instruct differently. All rifles are different as well.
Lets break it down again....starting with the AR:
The way the grip is, it almost inviting a poor grip. Thats why, it is recommended for a HIGH grip. Look at the video of Denise again for that.
How tight? Firm Handshake in standing, and a lil bit more, the lil bit more I think comes naturally when I pull it back into my shoulder. NOTE on the sling. You may need to adjust the sling, when you start doing this. This is why I highly recommend a 1907 sling. Easy for repeatability. If you (Maxwell) are not using a 1907 style leather or synthetic sling, suggest that you start. Simply going from a web sling to a 1907 sling helped my scores right off the bat. Takes some getting used to, but its all I use now.
Rapids, firm and a lil more.....again, that comes from pulling it back.
Slow prone, it is a firm handshake grip. That is all. Maybe even a little lighter than that.
NOW...., on the AR, when you do this, you may need to adjust your normal trigger finger placement. Still no dragging wood, that applies. BUT, let the trigger finger lie where it naturally will. Prior to my adopting this, I would consciously bend the first digit, and religiously tried to pull straight back, with the blade of the trigger bisecting the bottom of my nail on my index finger.
Not anymore. Now, it is just aft of the joint on the second pad. If that makes sense?
Same for the other rifles...especially the Garand. I found the rifle was easier to manage, riding the recoil with the firmer grip.
Hope that helped?
Best thing you or anyone can do, is go to the range and try it out. I'd suggest working only on one position at a time. Try it on one target the way you have been, and on another this newer way. Don't give up if the score doesn't improve. It eventually will.
Have you seen Ken Roxburgs videos yet?
R/
Chris
A good explanation from a friend and coach for the US Palma team... hold it like someone is trying to steal it from you. This is especially true in offhand on windy days.
Excellent Agrivere!
Do not let his forum Rank or Appleseed instructor status deter you from heeding his advice.
Scott has been doing this a lil longer than me. I'm just glad he is an instructor now.
Also...on TRIGGER placement (a future topic), if you watch the video of Denise..you will be amazed at how much trigger finger is inside that trigger guard!
To my point above.., let it (trigger finger) lie naturally! Just don't drag aluminum/steel or wood!
R/
Chris
This string was a 98 or a 99....regardless.
Look at my pathetic grip, and compare it to Denise's video.
Look at my booger flinger (trigger finger)....and then look at Denise.
Lots has changed...long way to go.
This is "TUNING" of the finer points...SQUEEZING ever point one can out of the rifleman/woman system!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_HP-Zrm84
R/
Chris
Quote from: jmdavis on November 20, 2016, 10:42:21 PM
Another thing is to watch the patience with which she sets her position and fires.
That's the one thing that I especially noticed. She wasn't in a rush. Get a good position, get the NPOA, and let 'er rip.
Quote from: scuzzy on November 21, 2016, 08:17:15 PM
Quote from: jmdavis on November 20, 2016, 10:42:21 PM
Another thing is to watch the patience with which she sets her position and fires.
That's the one thing that I especially noticed. She wasn't in a rush. Get a good position, get the NPOA, and let 'er rip.
A most excellent point and one of the things i saw as well. I see new shooters rush to start getting rounds downrange in the rapids, and that's almost always a poor strategy. If you take extra time to really get NPoA right and your position solid, pulling the trigger quickly is easy and the shots will go where you want them to go. I even see drills sometimes to practice getting the first shot out fast and that rarely works well. I'm almost always the last person to start shooting in rapids, but rarely the last to finish.
She doesn't rush her shots, she takes only good shots.
As a former Collegiate and International shooter turned highpower and hopefully pistol soon, Denise has alot of knowledge and is a good coach.
Also I like the grip it like somebody is trying to steal it. I don't know that my grip is that firm. But it is pretty firm with the AR from standing through rapid prone. I am still trying to figure out what works best for slow prone.
Mike
"That arm "Flick" she does,
Does anyone know why she does this am "flick"? Does it serve a purpose?
Terry
Keeps the sleeve out of the way and approaches the grip from the same angle each and every time. You want a process that is repeatable to have repeatable results. The idea is to reduce the variables and she is very good at reducing the variables.
As I said in an earlier post her advice led directly to me going from shooting 93-99's to shooting 95's-100's. Its a big difference and once you clean the target it gets easier. You can still mess up, get caught by the wind, have the wrong dope etc. But I no longer get into sitting hoping to get it over with. I get into sitting expecting to shoot clean unless something weird happens.
I too find this advice surprising, and counter-intuitive based on previous advice I've been given.
I've heard it mentioned several times not to close your non-dominant eye when aiming down sights. The reason being (as was explained to me) is it requires additional muscle movement. Additional muscle movement is the enemy of consistent shooting, makes repeatable shot placement more difficult, and tires you out sooner. If closing your non-dominant eye can affect shot placement that much, why would you be placing that much additional muscle movement on your hand (a very firm handshake on the grip) or your trigger arm (pulling it back into your shoulder)?
It also seems very difficult, without shooting ALOT, to be able to get a consistent and repeatable grip strength, or pull strength. I doubt most individuals would be able to tell the difference between pulling the rifle into your shoulder with 5 lbs of force, or 6 lbs of force, but one exerts 20% more force, exerts 20% more energy, and has a greater impact on the rifle.
I'm not saying this to identify myself as correct, or the advice as wrong. Exactly the opposite. I believe the advice is right, I just don't know why. Is anyone able to explain why it works, other than to just say "try it"?
Why is it that providing a strong grip/pull with your support hand will impart significant movement on the rifle to produce bad shot placement, but providing a strong grip/pull with your trigger hand will impart less movement on the rifle to produce better shot placement. Can anyone explain this?
The generally accepted reason for keeping both eyes open has less to do with tension than vision. When you close one eye the other pupil may also dilate and your vision become less sharp.
SpecialKay,
On the eyes, JMDavis covered the reason. I wear (when I remember to) an opaque colored eye blinder, and do keep both eyes open.
On the grip. No, there is no grip "dynamometer" to measure grip pressure. The Sling is still doing what it is supposed to do, providing maximum stability to the rifle. The very firm grip, ensures that I don't lose my sight picture in the standing position...or the rapids.
Yeah...your likely not gonna like this response, but you do have to "try it", or....not. It is up to you. If what you (or anyone else reading) are currently doing "grip" wise is providing excellent results and scores, then likely no reason to give it a try. If however, you maybe have reached a "plateau" with your current marksmanship skills, and are not "Cleaning" the targets maybe trying something different is in order.
To provide more clarification. I use a 1907 leather sling, for a few reasons. At first it was intimidating, a lot more complicated (in my head) than the GI Web sling. I mention this, because, when one starts to "Hold Hard", other things may reveal themselves. The constraint in the process, will shift somewhere else. In my case, I needed to tighten my sling up a notch. Because...as stated above, the sling provides maximum stability to the rifle.
My Grip in the rapids is helping me with 2 things off the top of my head....follow thru and recoil management.
In Standing (I do not wear a sling in standing ....against the rules), it helps to add stability to the rifle, but the grip is only 1 part of the entire system.
Yeah, you either gotta try it or not at this point.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Specialkay on November 22, 2016, 05:13:33 PM
Why is it that providing a strong grip/pull with your support hand will impart significant movement on the rifle to produce bad shot placement, but providing a strong grip/pull with your trigger hand will impart less movement on the rifle to produce better shot placement. Can anyone explain this?
OK....I missed something here. Your support arm is where the sling goes...cradle that forearm like an egg. Absolutely no pressure at all on the support hand to the forearm. That is "why" I think if you apply pressure to the forearm with "support" hand...you will throw shots.
If you move the support hand...your actually moving the sling, (via a lot of other things)your not allowing the sling to do its job. That's a very down and dirty fast answer to that.
With a 10/22, If I sling up tight enough....I really would not likely even need to establish any sort of grip. I probably could simply insert my booger flicker (Trigger finger), and pull. I've never tried that....but mention it to exaggerate a point. RECOIL! Follow Thru...., yeah I think that is why in certain positions a "grip it like you stole it" grip is warranted.
Standing....totally different position without hasty sling. Grip is a HUGE part to that position. It assists with "shrinking" my wobble area. For instance, with a "guiding a toddler across the street" grip in standing....my "hold" or "wobble" would be likely 7 ring at best. Holding Hard I've managed to get a 8-9 ring hold. Still working on this...but it yielded me a big improvement.
Hope that made sense. Missed the "what's the difference between support and trigger hand" part.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Specialkay on November 22, 2016, 05:13:33 PMWhy is it that providing a strong grip/pull with your support hand will impart significant movement on the rifle to produce bad shot placement, but providing a strong grip/pull with your trigger hand will impart less movement on the rifle to produce better shot placement. Can anyone explain this?
So, here's the reason. It's physiology.
Our standard Appleseed NPOA instruction is to relax as much as possible. Muscle tension during the shot causes inaccuracy because (a) the noise/recoil triggers a reflex reaction, and all tensed muscles will twitch to some degree, and (b) there is a similar mental reaction -- the mind "relaxes" as soon as the intimidating act of shooting is over, and this also tends to relax our muscles. Just like bad trigger control can throw a shot, these twitches
will throw a shot.
The standard way to fight this is to have all your muscles relaxed. The twitch is much less that way. On the mental side, the "bubble," the rhythm of the Six Steps, focus on the front sight, rehearsal moves via dry practice, etc., are all techniques to minimize the twitch in focus.
However, not all muscle tension is created equal. This is why we can recognize shooter errors from different group shapes. Tension in the support hand is not the worst but it's at a point of leverage, where small motions can significantly change the point of impact. Sling up and get your NPOA, then grip the stock with your support hand, and see what it does. On the other hand, changing tension in your trigger hand is only likely to increase the pressure against your shoulder (check this too while you're down there). It has relatively little effect on POI.
There is another alternative to fight the twitch, and that is to exert the muscle. Too hard and it'll shake, of course, as it'll cause other muscles to fight it -- but our "firm handshake grip" is pretty stable. It's the middle ground, muscles that are tense and ready but only partially engaged, that will jump the most.
So provided we can isolate our trigger hand and grip hard, the cost in accuracy will be minimal. Probably enough to be worth it in terms of added stability. Definitely worth it if you're mentally prepared and practiced.
But this takes practice. We do tell students "firm handshake grip," but without spending time in position, telling them to grip hard is going to mean they're accidentally tense all over the place.
Quote from: Specialkay on November 22, 2016, 05:13:33 PMI've heard it mentioned several times not to close your non-dominant eye when aiming down sights. The reason being (as was explained to me) is it requires additional muscle movement. Additional muscle movement is the enemy of consistent shooting, makes repeatable shot placement more difficult, and tires you out sooner. If closing your non-dominant eye can affect shot placement that much, why would you be placing that much additional muscle movement on your hand (a very firm handshake on the grip) or your trigger arm (pulling it back into your shoulder)?
Your whole face tenses when you close one eye. Astronomers learned centuries ago to cover their weak eyes rather than close them. Very common to see amateur astronomers with eyepatches, and lacking that, it's good technique to hold your hand over your weak eye while observing. It makes a far greater difference than you might think. This all affects your sight alignment. Your head is by far the most sensitive of all body placement decisions.
What I tell my students, however, is to not think about it and see what their body does. Almost all of them will keep both eyes open, at least most of the way, unless they consciously choose to close the other eye. For the rest, duct tape on the goggles is always an option. :D
Quote from: Specialkay on November 22, 2016, 05:13:33 PM
Why is it that providing a strong grip/pull with your support hand will impart significant movement on the rifle to produce bad shot placement, but providing a strong grip/pull with your trigger hand will impart less movement on the rifle to produce better shot placement. Can anyone explain this?
A great question, but one with a somewhat complicated answer. The answer, in my opinion at least, also differs depending on what position you're in.
Firstly, a strong grip with your support hand will not impart significant movement on the rifle. Only when you PUSH or PULL the rifle to one side or the other with your support hand (because you haven't REALLY found your NPoA in most cases) does this impart significant movement. I don't use this technique often, but one of the shooting "tools" I occasionally use is exactly what you describe. If for whatever reason my position isn't as stable as it should be for a rapid fire string (it happens less and less with more practice, but it happens), I will do exactly what you say and grip the rifle fairly hard with my support hand. Note I'm careful (and this takes practice too) to ONLY increase my grip strength, and not add tension anywhere else. This is one way to compensate for a "loose" position and prevent your position from breaking down under recoil.
For myself at least, in sitting and prone (both slow and rapid) I have plenty of sling tension and do not feel any need to pull the rifle into my shoulder with either hand. What I've found, however, is that if I don't have a good firm grip with my trigger hand, that when I squeeze the trigger my hand sympathetically wants to contract and I'll throw shots out to the right. It takes practice to learn to do it, but when I shoot sitting and prone I try to keep a firm grip with my trigger hand without adding any tension to any other part of my arm. Try it, it's harder than it seems. And remember it doesn't have to be perfect. Better is better.
Offhand is a WHOLE different can of worms. I pull the entire rifle quite firmly back into my shoulder, and there's a pretty good amount of tension in my trigger hand and arm. The reason I believe this to be effective is because when standing we MUST have some tension. If you completely relax, you'll fall down. So it comes down to controlled tension being better than uncontrolled tension. To think of it another way, if I don't give my muscles something to do, they twitch around and "try to help" and the sights bounce all over the target. So I give them something to do, and they are happy. They pull the rifle straight back into my shoulder and quit trying to "help" me move my sights onto the target.
That's what seems to work best for me. Hope that helps!
O0
To what Aggrivere and Rocket Man said above.
Nailed it!
Especially in standing.
An excellent video showing the proper way to establish "Grip" along with the "Arm Flick" mentioned above.
I never get tired of watching this one, so much to gain from simply watching this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGYl13kwBIk
Finally getting around to trying something a few HIGH Masters and Distinguished Rifleman suggested.
Swapping from an A2 to an A1 grip. NO "NUB"!
Allows for one to achieve a "higher" grip more easily.
Pic of me "Gripping" to follow.
No GUCCI gear on, and I am in desperate need of a haircut.
Pics are only to show the GRIP and the pressure I give to the grip.