OK....this is an alternate standing position discussion. Alternate to using a hasty sling.
I'll start it with this....a Distinguished Rifleman (DR), taught me this at my first big dance. The CMP Eastern Games a few years ago. I put up a "whopping 20 something" out of a possible 100 at the 200 yard line and was completely baffled as to why.
SO...., at the CMP BBQ, every shooter that had the DR badge on their hat...I approached and asked what I was doing wrong.
Few caveats: This is not hasty sling stuff. Hasty sling is not authorized in CMP or NRA shooting. Sling must be on the rifle..., but in parade configuration. Before you read any further I will also say Appleseed #2 has approved (awhile back) us (MD Instructors) to teach this alternate standing position.
So....there you are at the 200 yard line (or 25 meter line) and you opt to not use a hasty sling. What next?
Picture this....anyone that has been in the military will remember this drill. Take your arms and extend them out fully...both arms. Then....extend your index fingers and balance a pencil on both of them for as long as you can. Some services actually do this drill with a service rifle. What eventually happens? Your arms start to tire out very fast, even with only a pencil as weight.
BUT wait, their is more! LOL
Inevitably, doing the above drill...one will find the arms dipping. It will happen, and quickly. But the pencil (or rifle) cannot hit the deck (floor)! What happens...is the elbows start to bend....and they start to move in closer and closer to the body. *Then we get yelled at, and assume the pushup position normally*....
The point is, you will bring your arms in....bring it all IN.....with your thumbs now at your chest and your elbows totally bent.....you can likely support that pencil, or rifle for hours!
Think about that for a sec......hours...balanced. Versus minutes with arms extended.
Look at any pic of a NRA HP or Olympic shooter (I will attempt to upload one here shortly of an Appleseeder in standing without a sling for support).
IF you bring it all in, the rifle will balance better.
OK...that is the first part of the lesson.
Now...our SHF's are good. They really do work. We teach to bring the rifle to the head....not the head to the rifle. This one really took me a bit to figure out. It took 2 competitive shooters with me in my hotel room till I realized I was bringing my head to the rifle. It took me standing in front of a full length mirror to see it myself....with my own eyes. It was quite an epiphany.
We also teach, that it is OK to have some of the stock above the shoulder. It is more than OK....it is what is required for the majority to get an erect head position.
SO....the sling is really not necessary at all in standing. In fact it can actually...and most times, hinder the forward progression of a shooter. The arms being extended...tire quickly.
NPOA adjustment? We preach that the support side foot stays planted in concrete with the hasty sling way. Good advice...it does...but only after a few things.
Establishing NPOA:
Line up 90 degrees to the target
Establish grip
Eyes closed
Bring rifle to head
Head Erect
RELAX Shoulders
Eyes open
Are we on the target? Likely not at all.
Here is where we adjust the NPOA....take rifle out of shoulder
SHIMMY BOTH feet a little....akin to moving a refridgerator.
Start the above over
Adjust again....and again. Until your eyes open...and your hold is in the black!
THE above is what the 3 minute prep periods are for.
Once there.....you should be planted in concrete.
Now....during the COF....
With a centerfire...heck even maybe with a .22, position will shift. Check with the eyes closed again if needed.
When do we realize that is needed?
If we are calling our shots properly...and are confident in our position and ability....and we call it a 10! Or an X or a V and the score comes up as a wide 7, or wide 3 (AQT), or miss.....something has shifted. I mean I called that a 10 at 7 o clock...and the target is scored as a miss! WTH?
That something could be 2 things. Your position shifted from recoil. It happens.
Or...equipment related. I put 6 shots down at the 200 yard line in a team match (Hearst Doubles)...a few months ago at Camp Perry....shooting with a DR that taught me the above process. Turned out...my scope elevation turret was one complete revolution off...something like 12 minutes or more. I was aiming at target 34 black, calling 9's and 10's....and getting missed. BIG lesson learned for me. Took 6 shots though. Shots 7, 8, 9 and 10....were 8's and 9's. LOL
More on this as people comment.
I'll figure out how to attach a pic of an Appleseed Instructor, in standing...no coat, no gucci gear except an old shooting glove I gave him.
R/
Chris
Here is a Youtube video of myself practicing Standing. I still have a long way to go myself...still learning the finer points of the position. But, in the below videos, you will see all angles..., and an erect head.
Without the head erect..., the head is going to the rifle. The also applies regardless if one is hasty slinging or not.
Getting the head erect, is a tough concept for one to grasp. I've seen it on the Appleseed lines, and also HP lines.
Hope this helps someone. I put these posts up...not to pontificate..., but to help you all on your Rifleman journey...whatever that may be.
Can anyone provide me with a critique of my position in the below videos? I'll tell you one right off the bat....my GRIP. That has been corrected. I'll post yet another topic on establishing Grip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVEv_ZPQcXs&list=PLqU_c_b9MsIaOTkMOu_tRImZ7hHZK3jyQ
R/
Chris
IF you have watched the videos....here is a critique....that was taken months ago...
Few things I have picked up since.
1. Head could actually be more erect! It really could. The side view videos show that.
2. Grip, I mentioned that above.
3. I'm not wearing my entire "gitup" meaning....shooting glasses, eye blinder and my Japanese tourist hat. If one is going to take the time to dry fire...one should be dry firing as realistically as possible.
4. The last segment of that video series, was to illustrate that my coat could be tighter. That has been corrected since.
Standing is where the matches are won.....and they are lost at the 600 yard line. Why is that??
Standing is the most difficult position to master. 600 yard line brings another set of challenges...the wind being the primary one. Also...MENTAL stuff. I mean....if one is to put up a real good standing score....EGO can get in the way....Excitement, all that. Gotta keep it together for all courses of fire.
Just like our Appleseed AQT! Bottom row is the Money Row!
R/
Chris
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mopork/IMG_0023_zpsqqurr02e.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mopork/media/IMG_0023_zpsqqurr02e.jpg.html)
Chief do you mean something like the above pic ?
ChestyPullers pic above.....
My critique...
Nice GRIP! (See my post on that)
But head still could be more erect. That is all....
It is not easy. Use a full length mirror, or have a friend take pics.
Only way I've found to realize I was doing it wrong.
R/
Chris
So Chief do you have any idea why standing scores go increase when you shoot with a more erect head behind the rifle ?
Good question...
Yes! Cause your more relaxed! Believe it or not.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 20, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
Can anyone provide me with a critique of my position in the below videos? I'll tell you one right off the bat....my GRIP. That has been corrected. I'll post yet another topic on establishing Grip.
I'll try. Not going to claim I do it better, but since you asked. ;D
Overall comment is that you look really tense. I don't know how much of that is the camera, or your wife watching, or little ones butting in (boy do I know that one). Obviously some of that is "focus," and some more is fighting your coat into position. But... is it any
fun?Find your happy place and it gets easier to relax. Yeah, that's what a granola from California would say, I get that. But it's true. You're right on about getting your head more erect, here you're clearly hunching into it a little and your shoulders are rounded.
In MVI0740, you can actually see your head position change between shots. You're creeping up on the stock just a little, maybe 3/4". Use your neck and the Rifleman patch for reference points and you'll see it. Are you "turkey neck"ing, or actually pushing your head forward? Are you pulling the rifle deeper into your shoulder? This is another common sign of building intensity.
MVI0743 I'm watching your muzzle track before and after the shot. First shot there's significant motion throughout -- there's kind of a sideways Figure 8 like we teach, but your shot is after the crossing point, leading me to believe your NPOA was actually right of your target. Second shot is similar although at the moment of firing, you fight it and manage to pause for a quarter second as you release, but then when you relax, your muzzle tracks left again. I'm going to propose this is also head-position related. Tense neck drives the rifle, and if you find NPOA when you're relatively relaxed and then lean into it to shoot, it'll push you opposite your trigger side.
I can't speak to grip issues. Can't really see anything. Muzzle doesn't dance up and down which suggests your support is solid.
---
As far as Appleseed goes, only reason this is an "alternate" position is that (a) it's more equipment dependent and (b) I wouldn't shoot this way at food. For something liable to raise its antlers and start loping off, I'd much rather be in Hasty sling with a fat chicken wing.
But I do get folks who want to shoot this way once in a while, oven mitt and everything. I'll just work with them on the line individually. It's not a bad fit to what we do.
Last thing I'll say about relaxation state, something I shamelessly steal from a younger IIT (now a Green Hat on his own), is this about the standing position: How relaxed? Think about how you're standing next time you're in front of the commode. Just like that.
Also, in on this thread to see what the real experts have to say. ;) Good topic.
Actually the reason that you want your head as upright as possible is balance. Close your eyes with you head erectand try to hold that position for 15 seconds. How does it feel? What are your core muscles doing? What are your leg muscles doing?
Now close your eyes and tilt your head and try to hold that positions for 15 seconds. What happens? Is it the same or different?
When shooting standing there will be some muscular tension. The goal is to make it repeatable and keeping your head erect and bringing the rifle to your head rather than vice versa helps.
For Chesty Puller. You should try bringing you stock in one notch, and moving the rifle closer to your face. When it is right you won't have to tilt your head. This is an advantage of the adjustable over the fixed stock.
I will post some videos of good standing shooters.
Thanks Rocketman for the critique.
I've improved some since those videos were taken.
The point is, it really helps if one can video themselves...or see it in a mirror.
I can watch Olympic shooters all day....and "Think" I'm doing it right, but until there is a mirror or picture or video of myself...I will never realize the errors.
Mike is correct....erect head leads to a balanced position as well.
R/
Chris
One more thing on this alternate position.
It does not NOT....I repeat NOT require the use of a glove/mitt/coat anything. We have had students clean the standing portion of the AQT with regular street clothes on.
Key is using the body to support the rifle.
Coat surely does help...as it stiffens the back, and is almost akin to leaning against a fence post. But it is not a required item. Surely not for Appleseed AQT/KD shooting.
So please do not "gaff off" this alternate position thinking it is only for those with the Gucci gear.
R/
Chris
Jmdavis
thanks it works better with the stock all the way in but my head tilt is caused by my progressive lenses(aka trifocals). I have to tilt my head to see thru my glasses based upon the distance to what I'm looking at, any other problems I blame it on Chief Chris. :wb:
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 21, 2016, 07:45:01 AM
The point is, it really helps if one can video themselves...or see it in a mirror.
I can watch Olympic shooters all day....and "Think" I'm doing it right, but until there is a mirror or picture or video of myself...I will never realize the errors.
Absolutely right!
The few 'seeds I've had time to really work hard with a single shooter, one tool I've used is to photograph them in position and show it to them...
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 21, 2016, 08:15:18 AM
One more thing on this alternate position.
It does not NOT....I repeat NOT require the use of a glove/mitt/coat anything. We have had students clean the standing portion of the AQT with regular street clothes on.
Absolutely. In fact, when I get students who know it all and resolutely refuse to use a sling of any type, I do teach them this, with reasonable results. Chances are if they're that inflexible, they'll make other mistakes, but you never know.
Although it depends on body type. With support elbow relaxed against the ribs sometimes it's tough to rest the rifle high enough, and they wind up either craning their necks or stiffening up the support shoulder. Some folks really do need the oven mitt, or else they're balancing it on fingertips or wishing they had a longer magazine to use as a pedestal.
I have freakishly long arms and long fingers, and I CAN shoot that way in shirtsleeves but I've got to take the weight in my wrist, and it's a little awkward. Throw me a rifle when seconds count, and I'll still take the shot in Hasty, just because it's better for my bubble.
Quote from: ChestyPuller on November 21, 2016, 11:47:49 AM
Jmdavis
thanks it works better with the stock all the way in but my head tilt is caused by my progressive lenses(aka trifocals). I have to tilt my head to see thru my glasses based upon the distance to what I'm looking at, any other problems I blame it on Chief Chris. :wb:
Do you need the glasses for the scope?
I wear bifocals, with the line. But my mild astigmatism seems to have disappeared this year. So, with only my presbyopia, I can actually shoot without the glasses with the scope.
For pistol glasses, I order my script from Zenni Optical. They work and are cheap so it's not a major problem when I need to make a tweak. But I also have had some discussions with my optometrist who is triple distinguished (Rifle with the M14, Pistol with the 1911, and Revolver with a Smith 19). For iron sights in particular he provided me with some help that great improved my irons sight sight picture. Part of that advice was to use a wide front sight and a wide notch. The other part had to do with tweaking the script to bring the front sight to the best focus without destroying the target view at 50 yards for pistol. That was a little bit more power than is generally suggested. But it has worked.
For hunting and daily use I wear the bifocals. My script is +1 right eye with no cylinder and a +2 add for reading. The left eye is +.5 with no cylinder and a +2 for reading. It works for me and I use it also when hunting.
But for maximum performance with the National match rifle and scope, I have the scope set so that I do not need to wear my glasses and I have seen a 600 yard improvement from that recently. But my major problem at 600 isn't eyes, it was process. And the only way to improve process is to ingrain it so deeply through practice that it's difficult to mess it up.
Mike
Quote from: Rocket Man on November 21, 2016, 12:39:00 PM
Throw me a rifle when seconds count, and I'll still take the shot in Hasty, just because it's better for my bubble.
This discussion is making me want to take the ol' 10/22 to the range and try a string in Hasty and without. I'm kind of anti-Hasty, since I got it too tight at my first Appleseed, and found myself using muscle to fight the sling and scrunch my head over to the rifle. On the other side of that now, I see a fair number of shooters make the same mistake, even after we tell them to get the rifle high in the shoulder. The sling across the chest also amplifies my breathing, which makes me panic if I'm trying to reduce my hold. If my animosity is based on Doing It Wrong, I'd like to know, since I always feel bad telling shooters to use the Hasty when I dislike it.
mmmm I don't know I have never tried it without my glasses but I will now, thanks
Quote from: ChestyPuller on November 21, 2016, 03:54:30 PM
mmmm I don't know I have never tried it without my glasses but I will now, thanks
My eyesight is so bad I consider it a safety issue not to have my glasses on while on the line. Even if I can see the target clearly through the scope, I wouldn't be able to tell if someone was walking down range, or what the person to my right or left is doing.
Might be different at an NRA or CMP event (never been) with qualified shooters around you. I'm used to going to non-member ranges or AS events where I, to be honest here, don't trust the person to my right or left AT ALL.
I don't consider myself a good shooter yet but I usually build my standing position based on an article that Agrivere wrote in the June newsletter (I think).
My support arm is usually as described. I don't usually do the chicken wing as I have issues in my right shoulder.
I will see how it goes when I start with the centerfire MSR.
I mention in another post "Grip", something about an "arm flick".
If you want to see two very disciplined shooters in "Standing" check this out.
They are like "Robots", with the process being so uniform and repeatable.
This is how it is done! Shot calls are phenomenal as well!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGYl13kwBIk