All,
Figured I'd share this here, as I tried several different scope mounting ways in the past.....and have found/stumbled upon what definitely works.
For 3 position shooting (AQT COF stuff)....it is recommended with a standard A2 AR shooting iron sights that a "nose to charging handle" cheek weld is desired and what typically every competitor uses.
What happens to an AR15 with say a flat top receiver and a scope?
My initial move on a certain rifle was to get a standard 1 piece DNZ mount with no offset. EPIC Fail because the eyepiece was rearward of the charging handle.
Hmmmm, I had this quad rail thingie on the rifle....and the pic rail extended past the receiver all the way to the flash hider.
I simply moved the scope mount FWD, had one mounting bolt on the FWD edge of the upper receiver and the other mounting bolt was on the quad rail.
I did manage to qualify KD with this setup....but it is not ideal.
DO NOT share scope mount with upper and a rail. It is just a bad idea.
FFWD to when NRA changed SVC rifle rules to allow an optic. Some of the best shooters in the country have made the switch to the scope.
I was armed with "not sharing the mount with the rail", so this time....I realized I needed a scope mount with a cantilever offset. Every competitor I talked with said a 2 inch offset will likely not be enough. I wanted instant gratification and a local shop had a mount with a 2 inch offset.
Mounted that on my rifle...and it looked good. The eyepiece was just at/under an inch FWD of the charging handle.
But the height was not ideal, meaning.....the mount was too tall for me to get a repeatable NTCH cheek weld, also I realized in seated position and slow prone the scope was not FWD enough.
Called some of my mentors *accomplished Hi Pwr shooters* and decided to listen to them.
Basically, for 3 position shooting, the typical competitor needs a 3 inch offset mount. That allows one to get the proper eye relief and a repeatable cheek weld (NTCH).
My optics eye piece is now about 1 3/4" FWD of the charging handle. That is an estimate from a picture I just looked at. It is just at the 2nd pic rail notch from the aft moving fwd.
Height over bore....as stated above, accomplished NRA competitors *Hi Masters* have tested a lot of stuff. The ideal scope height over bore is found to be 1.300".
A lot of manufacturers do not advertise what the height over bore of their mount is. I'll list a few options that will definitely work:
1. DNZ Freedom Reaper mount, this one is 1.375" height over bore...and many are using. The price is fair...and the mount is solid.
2. Keystone Accuracy has developed a "purpose built" service rifle mount that has a 3" offset and the height over bore is 1.300".
3. Giessele also has several options, but now we are getting out of my price range. Very expensive.
SOME are using the Larue. The issue with the Larue is that it's height over bore is 1.500". Some have adjusted their position to accommodate this extra height and it is working well for them.
These are my findings and what I have found to work very well for me last season.
My apologies if this has been addressed in a prior thread.
R/
Chris
Thanks for sharing Chris.
Magnified optics in general are becoming less and less connected to how they were set up in the past. A modern 20-minute rail / 50mm objective setup on a traditional stock comb is comical. Manners & McMillan dominate PRS for good reason.
High Power is one of the few places going against upmarket optic & mounting trends (which seem to assume very different shooting positions). Solving for that probably should take some thought, if you think about it.
Kennebago, I see your point.
The post is geared towards 3 position shooting, not NRA Hi Pwr (although it absolutely translates).
R/
Chris
Very informative. Thanks for posting.
Right, I'm with you.
I read what you wrote nodding along in agreement because just finished setting up a bolt gun for KD use. I knew I was going to have issues and it was a STILL a pain for reasons similar to what you laid out.
Beware immediate gratification. In many cases it costs you more money and leaves you less than satisfied.
For anyone that cares, I am running a flattop AR, with Midwest Rail, low profile gas block, Keystone offset mount, and Leupold AR Mod 1 Firedot. I switched last November and shot many personal bests (including my first master and high master scores, my best EIC and a number of wins in my class at matches). The lower has a UBR stock, but I only recommend that if you are too tall or too short to use an A1 or A2 stock.
But here's the thing that many people don't think about. Learning the scope has made me a better shooter by pointing out other flaws that I didn't see in my shooting. It takes a 470 of 500 to have a Master Score at HighPower and a 485 of 500 to shoot HighMaster. Small flaws in position and technique are magnified when shooting Offhand and sitting at 200, Rapid Prone at 300 and Slow Prone at 600. Before even thinking about the wind, to have consistent performance you need consistent process.
Here is the rifle as I first set it up in November of last year. I have changed the stock. I have a different (lower) mount (the keystone) to get a better head position. And I think that I have shot out the Kreiger CrMo barrel that is on the rifle. But it still shoots well at 100 and 200 in matches. I also replaced the front sight tower with a low profile gas block. This is a competition gun. If I used it for other things I would mount backup irons on the receiver and the front of the free float hand guard.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/649/22659087526_070d3c7d73_k.jpg)
Mike's Pic above (JMDavis) is pretty much exactly how FWD my optic is.
Thanks for posting a pic Mike. That setup will allow anyone (well...reasonably) to get a Nose To Charging Handle repeatable cheek weld.
For those that may be struggling with AQT (25M or KD) qualification with a scoped AR, this type of setup in my opinion will help you alot. Well....it will eliminate the "Equipment" issue.
The rest comes from the SHF's and all that other stuff.
One more point....from the 6 steps. Sight Alignment. At first when I swapped to the optic I thought...."Awesome, sight alignment will be automatic now". The crosshairs are always aligned right? How much more would sight alignment play with a scoped rifle?
Well....to my point originally, height over bore. That will mess with repeatability......Having the optic set FWD enough to allow for a NTCH cheek weld is great, but if you find yourself "prairie dogging" on the rifle, that may be indicative that the height is not optimal.
In Appleseed shooting with an adjustable cheek rest can help with height issues. However, if one buys the right stuff, there will be no need for "foam" or any other type of a cheek rest.
Another side note....don't think JMDavis addressed, but this is a great time to do just that. You will notice on that rifle pic of his, the A2 front sight block is still on the rifle. Several competitors, have simply left the A2 gas block on, it does not interfere with sight picture. It will be a very slight blur, if you can see it at all. Some have used a cut off wheel and removed half of the sight block, others have opted for a low-profile gas block (yes...he did address this above).
Hope this helps you....
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 10, 2016, 04:10:33 PM
Well....to my point originally, height over bore. That will mess with repeatability......Having the optic set FWD enough to allow for a NTCH cheek weld is great, but if you find yourself "prairie dogging" on the rifle, that may be indicative that the height is not optimal.
[...]
Another side note....don't think JMDavis addressed, but this is a great time to do just that. You will notice on that rifle pic of his, the A2 front sight block is still on the rifle. Several competitors, have simply left the A2 gas block on, it does not interfere with sight picture. It will be a very slight blur, if you can see it at all.
I've been struggling a bit with NTCH cheek weld, especially in slow fire prone. I can comfortably do an upper lip to charging handle cheek weld with an A2 stock, but getting too close to my rear sight (A2 upper, WOA hooded sight) has ruined several pairs of safety glasses. Once they're scratched, I can't focus on the front post, and that's not so good for improving scores or keeping a consistent head position. I need to figure out why that got worse over the summer.
This is great stuff on scopes, and I'll have to check height above bore on mine. I know diddly about optics, so I bought a Nikon 3x this year just so I could instruct on them at Appleseed. I recently set up a flattop AR (A2 stock, GI handguard with Rock River float tube) with a scope and was shocked at how far forward I had to move it to get rid of ghosting. I can see the blur of the A2 FSB, but I'm leaving it on for now.
Maxwell,
There is some sort of rubber o ring you can get. Also..on the glasses, I think JMDavis may have something there for you on that.
On safety glasses. I have a pair of Rudy Project Pro Flows/Fog free and expensive. I did scratch a lens in the same way...they replaced for me. Some ranges do not mandate safety glasses, and I had in the past opted not to wear them. THat is until I had an ammo issue with "gas blowback". I'll be wearing glasses always now.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 10, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
Maxwell,
There is some sort of rubber o ring you can get. Also..on the glasses, I think JMDavis may have something there for you on that.
R/
Chris
and it works.
But I would add that for other than standing, I think Nose to Charging handle is better than lip to charging handle. This does have a little to do with catching moustache hairs in there though. :)
The whole point regardless of what stock weld you use is to have a consistent head and eye position. The method that you use to achieve it is not really important.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 10, 2016, 04:58:31 PM
But I would add that for other than standing, I think Nose to Charging handle is better than lip to charging handle. This does have a little to do with catching moustache hairs in there though. :)
The whole point regardless of what stock weld you use is to have a consistent head and eye position. The method that you use to achieve it is not really important.
Yeah, I prefer NTCH :). The lip to charging handle is related to some position change I made over the summer (likely angle to target and/or pulling my support hand back from the swivel); I'm trying to fix it without physically pulling my head back, though. On the plus side, I gained points in offhand, thanks to you guys and Agrivere.
Chris, I like the O ring idea, and I'll look into that. Safety glasses are my nemesis, due to fogging and scratching, but I can't cough up for the Rudy Projects. Better to lose points than lose an eye, though.
Maxwell,
It is not at all an uncommon problem/complaint with the A2 to ding glasses. The O Ring thing will help.
Others have canted the glasses somewhat. You can likely do an internet search on that. If you are on Facebook....look for NRA High Power Competitors group, or US Rifle teams...you will find what I am speaking of there.
If you know anyone that does USPSA, or even competitive bicycling, you can get upwards of a 50% discount on the Rudy's. Search around. I really like em....and like the lifetime lens replacement. They actually sent me a brand new pair. Cost like $25 for S&H.
R/
Chris
https://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-Tactical-Mounts-Flat-Riser/dp/B00A7FAEIQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1478827780&sr=8-8&keywords=blackhawk+rail
This is the rail I run with medium mounts for a "good nose to charging handle" hold with proper eye relief. I'm running a cheap 4-16 Center Point scope.
I am glad to see this post. Very timely for me. I am going to start working with my MSR soon and was wondering about many of this issues....Appleseed forums help yet again.
Thanks to all for their inputs. I may chime in again later as I work this issue.
Best regards, Goodoldfriend
I have shot with 1.5" from the rail to the center of the scope. 1.4" from the rail to the center of the scope. And now with 1.3 from the rail to the center of the scope.
1.4" is useable, but 1.3" is better for me and gives me a more relaxed neck. But, I have a short big wrestlers neck and have since I was a short wrestler 39 years ago.
I think that the only way to go shorter than 1.3 is to get an extended rail and then use separate rings of the low to low medium variety. The ones you can use will depend on your scope eyepiece.
I have the A2 sight on mine. I am going to have to learn how to replace the gas block....should be fun.
A very good thread. Thank you.
I, likewise, don't know diddly about optics. After attending my first KD event (having bad eyes and a hard time seeing the 400 yd target) and seeing almost everyone else there with optics, I realized I was reaching my limits and it was time to improve. So I built an AR to suit an optic. When I finished the rifle, but didn't get the optic yet, I found out we had our first child on the way. Which prevented me from getting a great scope. I ended up trying out a UTG scope (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KRA4YG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Time will tell, and I may end up paying for it.
Anyway, a few things I noticed, and questions that resulted:
1. Getting NTCH, I didn't need to move the scope nearly as far forward as most of the threads I've read said I should have. Am I doing something wrong?
2. To get my NTCH without stretching my neck forward uncomfortably, I needed to make my collapsable stock shorter than it's full extension (usually around the second or third notch). I can't imagine what that would be like with an A2 stock . . . am I doing something wrong?
3. Does my height look about right? It felt comfortable to me, although again I don't know diddly about optics.
The help is much appreciated (past and present).
I'd love to see a picture of you in position with the scope. It LOOKS too far back, but it's hard to say without seeing you on the rifle. Another note is to be sure to check it in all positions. Sitting in particular tends to move your head forward, and often what seems ok in prone or standing is no good in sitting.
SpecialK,
If you scroll up to JMDavis post with the picture of his rifle....that is likely the optimal location for the average person....maybe even for more than the average person.
Not sure about the eye relief on your UTG scope. That may be an issue. Only you can tell if it is, or....post a pic as Aggrivere mentioned.
JMDavis mentioned the height over bore....and as I mentioned above most of the National champions/Olympic class shooters have found that 1.300" height over bore is the ideal height. For example, John Scandale from Keystone Accuracy is likely 6' 3" if not taller....he is a BIG guy. He has designed a purpose built mount, at exactly 1.3" height over bore...and a 3 inch FWD offset.
Check it out at:
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/a5nmscopemount.html
Another option....cost wise, and what I am using, is the DNZ Freedom reaper. That is a 1.375" bore height, but it is working for me and several others as well. Here is a link to that on Amazon....keep in mind this is for a 30MM scope, you will want a different mount if your scope is a 1 inch tube:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00403LJLW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
As Aggrivere mentioned, seated position will reveal a LOT as far as scope position is concerned. Get in position, eyes closed....get comfy behind the rifle in seated (LOL)....then open your eyes....if you find you need to sneak FWD or you find your head "prarie dogging" it is likely not going to work.
Well..."not going to work" is a relative term....you can make it work, but will lose that "repeatability".
Stock position....I use the UBR, of which has I believe 5 positions to choose from. I shoot standing at Position 2.....Seated and Prone I think is at position 4. I would need to verify on my rifle....may do that later. Broke my ankle and leg a few months ago so getting around is not that easy for me at the moment.
If I was shooting with an A2 stock....my scope would still be exactly like JMDavis picture above.
To my "not going to work" comment:
I qualified on a 10/22 on the 25M AQT with a scope. I found that in seated and prone I had a lot of black/grey in the scope. You can qualify with a scope picture like that but it is not ideal. Just make sure you have "Equal grey/black" in the scope view. It is definitely not "ideal" but can be made to work.
On your rifle...you could likely make that work as well....even for a KD event.
But...at some point, if you want the best repeatability, and intend to squeeze every little bit of accuracy from the rifle...you may want to get a 3 inch offset mount, with a height over bore between 1.3 and 1.5. 1.3 being ideal.
Hope that helped.
R/
Chris
GoodOldFriend,
A2 sight block removal is not at all difficult. Youtube is your friend. Brownellls has a great video that shows exactly how to remove it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4rkeCzwteo
You may opt to buy the "jig" that they sell for the job. I used it, and it is wonderful.
Basically, remove handguards/quad rail.
Then use a small drift pin to remove the gas tube alignment pin.
Then drift out the pins (if there are pins on yours....some use allen bolts) on the A2 sight block....from the correct direction (RE video)
IF you have a flash hider or muzzle break that will need to come off as well. Make sure you have a replacement crush or peel washer on hand for reinstallation.
That is about it..., then replace the A2 sight block with any low profile gas block out there. One that will work with your current handguard/rail setup of course. It is also a good time to replace the gas tube as well. Gas tube should get replaced...they are cheap, and since you have it all apart...might as well.
OR...
Use a dremel or cut off wheel and simply cut the A2 Gas block. I know a LOT that have done just that.
I made some "Bling" with my A2 front sight block..., a necklace as a joke!! LOL
Hope that helped.
R/
Chris
I would like to throw in for consideration another aspect. Human engineering. I heard a SB say that rifles are manufactured as "one size fits all", which in reality means "one size fits only a few".
Using myself as a model, now I stand barely 5'6". With an A2 stock (last version of the CMP rules I read did not approve collapsible stocks for CMP competitions) and my nose against the charging handle, the butt of the stock is on my bicep. That doesn't do any harm with a .223/5.56, but I like to build habit patterns. CMP is not my final goal, hunting is. If I did that with my 12 gauge shotgun or my 30-06 bolt rifle (I don't own a .338), I would be brushing my teeth with my left hand for at least a week (don't ask me how I know).
What I'm trying to say is this: proper scope position is where you can get a proper sight alignment; cheek on stock position depends on where you can get a good sight alignment with the butt of the stock resting on your shoulder pocket. Sounds like "what comes first, the chicken or the egg? " This is how I do it: first I place the rifle butt in my shoulder pocket (this is what's going to physically hurt me) and then I move the scope to achieve proper sight alignment. Eye relief will take care of itself if your sights are aligned.
I stand ready to be shot at dawn.
aj
Airplanejoe,
Good points.
I'll throw in for consideration, JMDavis is likely 5'5" (at a stretch...standing by to get shot LOL), Aggrivere is likely 5' 10", I'm 6ft, and as mentioned John Scandale from Keystone is at least 6' 3".
I'm only mentioning the above cause all of us, have our optics set up pretty much as FWD as JMDavis picture above.
I believe Aggrivere, and JMDavis are NRA "Master" class shooters, John Scandale is a High Master to lend credibility to what I am saying. I earned my Sharpshooter card earlier last year....would have got the Expert card had I not broken my leg.
Surely one can manipulate their position and make something else work. Heck, I qualified KD at Ramseur with an optic mount sharing the upper and the rail. Not at all ideal...but made it work.
I think that what JMDavis shows in his picture, is the ideal/optimal setup.
My advice here was definitely learned thru trial and error. I have likely 3 mounts sitting in my armorers roll away in the garage. They will likely never see the light of day again.
Regarding collapsible stocks, they are most definitely allowed, that came with the optics change as well.
R/
Chris
Video here of me practicing "Sort of Seated".....
You will see that my scope is just as FWD as JMDavis pic above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6mYuO_U24Q
AirplaneJoe,
Another great point you made was on hunting rifles. The post was and is geared towards the AR15. But....since you mentioned it...
I have Thompson Center Encores, with DNZ mounts and Leupold VX-3 optics on them. About 2 years ago I decided to sight them in "from position". Totally neglected to think about the fact that the stock was different than what I have been used to shooting....M1 Garand with my lip almost on the heel of the receiver and the AR15 NTCH.
DAMN that scope bit me good!
SO....YES! Please keep in mind that this post is geared towards an AR15...and 3 position shooting. Not hunting...or anything else like PRS which will likely require a different type of scope mount and position.
Does anyone know if there are Offset mounts for the TC Encores? I'd like to get them for those. I'm just too used to NTCH with the other rifles.
R/
Chris
I did not try to hijack the thread to turn it into a hunting rifle thread. I only tried to say that I view competition, whether it be NRA Highpower, CMP, F-Class, or any of the other disciplines as training that will enable me to take an ethical shot while hunting.
I will never attempt to override a Master's rated person shooting tips and techniques. After all, I belong to the "joe sh_t the rag man" category. What I said is that the popular scope placing position favored by many does not work for me and that if I tried to clone those positions, I would pay a price. I'll set my rifle for hunting and then I'll adapt for anything else.
Attached is a pic of what my AR rifle looks like. I participate in CMP matches with it and also hunt deer and hogs without changing anything (although sometimes I'll use slugs in my shotgun or my 30-06 centerfire; and if I could find quality AK 5-round mags, I would also hunt with an AK-47).
I sense that the firing squad is gathering.
aj
Airplanejoe,
No firing squad my friend.
No need to defend yourself, this is a great topic!
Hope to see you at a match someday.
R/
Chris
I agree, good topic. Very timely as I am starting to work with my MSR. I recently came to realize I pretty much have to use optics since I require bifocals. I found it out when dry firing my MSR and realizing I can't see anything....LOL
Either the front sight is blurry from looking through the top of my glasses. I did note I can see the front sight sharply sometimes if I carefully position my lenses, they call them progressive bifocals but they are really multi-focal depending on up/down tilt of my head. Anyway, if I have the front sights in focus, I pretty much can't see anything else....AKA the target is blurred to the point of being a blob.
But, using optics, and practicing a good repeatable cheek weld, presto, I can focus the scope.
So I will be working on mounting and deciding what to do after I see how the sights look with the A2 front sight post.
Mr. McKinley sent me a pic of his setup (attached). It shows how he has his scope mounted with the Blackhawk riser he mentioned in his earlier post.
Thanks for showing it to me. I will keep it in mind if my Nikon offset rings don't work.
Chris,
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask some follow up questions, only because I think something is wrong, but I don't know what.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 12, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
Not sure about the eye relief on your UTG scope. That may be an issue. Only you can tell if it is, or....post a pic as Aggrivere mentioned.
Manufacturer lists it as 3"-3.4".
But, here's photos to help illustrate. Wife wasn't able to take photos at the best angles, as space in the room was somewhat limited, but it should be good enough. If not, please let me know.
In all three positions, I have NTCH. Prone and seated I noticed just a slight amount of ghosting, and I figured I could move the scope forward just a bit. Standing I had a great picture. In all three I'm in the third notch on the stock (so position 4).
So, now seeing what I'm doing, what's wrong?
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 12, 2016, 10:05:50 AMHe has designed a purpose built mount, at exactly 1.3" height over bore...and a 3 inch FWD offset.
Check it out at:
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/a5nmscopemount.html
Another option....cost wise, and what I am using, is the DNZ Freedom reaper. That is a 1.375" bore height, but it is working for me and several others as well. Here is a link to that on Amazon....keep in mind this is for a 30MM scope, you will want a different mount if your scope is a 1 inch tube:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00403LJLW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Are either of those quick-release? They don't look like it. Any suggestions on a mount that is quick-release, 1.3" bore height, 3 inch FWD offset that won't break the bank? Assuming, of course, I need a 3" FWD offset . . .
Your first mistake is sitting and prone upside down, how did you get into those positions ? Is it a yoga thing ? 😜
If only.
They're right side up on my computer . . . so I don't know what's up.
If you only have a slight ghost ring now these may work for you:
https://www.amazon.com/Nikon-Riflescope-Picatinny-Mount-Inch/dp/B00B5F02ZW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1479100109&sr=8-3&keywords=nikon+rings
They worked for an Instructor here but didn't get my scope far enough forward. They are about $40.
SpecialK,
Your optic does not appear to have a cantilever offset. I'd suggest a 3 inch offset mount, like one of the ones I mention previously.
That my friend is the culprit. The mount.
None of the mounts I had mentioned are quick release. The Larue is, but that height is 1.5, you could make it work though.
I think the DNZ is a great deal for the $$.
Quick release, return to zero mounts are not cheap. Larue would be my recommendation if looking for a quick release. It will cost though!
On the optic you are using, is that a 50MM objective? If so...the DNZ mount I mention may not work. You may need a higher mount. A quick Google for DNZ would be what I would do. Get the # to DNZ and call them. Make sure you have the specs for your scope. Tell them you want a 3" offset, and explain what optic you are using.
Change that, and you will be amazed!
I'll be offline for the better part of the day. You can feel free to email me at: navarchgolf@gmail.com if you have any pressing questions.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 14, 2016, 08:28:27 AM
Your optic does not appear to have a cantilever offset. I'd suggest a 3 inch offset mount, like one of the ones I mention previously.
That my friend is the culprit. The mount.
I think I'm more concerned about how far forward the scope will be
after I put a cantilever offset on it. Right now it's pretty far back, in comparison to other photos I've seen of the "correct" way to do it, but I'm only getting a slight amount of ghosting in the seated and prone positions. Maybe enough to need to move the scope another 0.5" FWD. But even then, I'm no where near forward enough compared to where I should be.
What's different between what I think I need to have set up and what I'm being suggested should be set up, or am I missing something?
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 14, 2016, 08:28:27 AM
Quick release, return to zero mounts are not cheap. Larue would be my recommendation if looking for a quick release. It will cost though!
My concern, with using a cheap scope, would be if the scope doesn't work out I can hopefully take it off and use MBUS for the time being. But I guess if it really came down to that, I wouldn't be using the scope for the remainder of that shoot anyway, avoiding the need for a return to zero mount.
I also have a hard time spending more on the mount than I did on the scope.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 14, 2016, 08:28:27 AMOn the optic you are using, is that a 50MM objective? If so...the DNZ mount I mention may not work.
It is a 50MM objective. Actual dimensions of the objective is 53mm.
One of the reviews to the DNZ through Amazon mentioned they've used it with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50, which has actual dimensions of the objective at 57.4mm. So that DNZ should work for me, although I'll probably call just to make sure before dropping the $140.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 14, 2016, 08:28:27 AM
I'll be offline for the better part of the day. You can feel free to email me at: navarchgolf@gmail.com if you have any pressing questions.
Nothing too pressing to bother you offline. Thanks for the offer though.
Specialkay,
I think the reason most are using a cantilever mount is that they cannot get a good, non ghosted or non ringed sight picture through their optics when the optic is mounted on only the receiver's rail with standard rings. The offset of the cantilevered rings allows one to maintain mounting to the receiver, not mounting to the receiver and hand guard rail.
Since optics and shooters are different you may not need to use cantilevered rings to obtain a good picture in all 3 positions.
My interpretation is that it is preferable to mount the optic to the receiver only, not having the front scope ring attached to the hand guard rail. My thinking is that it is a more solid mounting strategy and less prone to mount movement. Perhaps the hand guard can wobble but I am not sure about this.
I think it is possible to run out of rail on barrel end of the receiver before one can get a forward enough scope mount to give a clear sight picture. This is dependent on the eye relief of the optic. The lower the eye relief, the closer one's eye needs to be to the scope to get a clear sight picture.
I am sure the more experienced members of the forum will correct me (by firing line, LOL). My experience is mainly with the Ruger 10/22 platform. I have had to fiddle a lot with the placement of the scopes on the rifles I use in order to find the sweet spot. I have had an occasional rifle and scope combination that just wouldn't work without aftermarket rails or rings. I could not get enough forward movement of the scope to let me do a good turkey neck and cheek weld.
I hope you find the combination that works for you. Just remember to persist until you do.
Best regards, Goodoldfriend
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 12, 2016, 10:43:15 AM
Airplanejoe,
Good points.
I'll throw in for consideration, JMDavis is likely 5'5" (at a stretch...standing by to get shot LOL), Aggrivere is likely 5' 10", I'm 6ft, and as mentioned John Scandale from Keystone is at least 6' 3".
I'm only mentioning the above cause all of us, have our optics set up pretty much as FWD as JMDavis picture above.
I believe Aggrivere, and JMDavis are NRA "Master" class shooters, John Scandale is a High Master to lend credibility to what I am saying. ...
Chris
Chris, thanks for the extra inch on height. I am actually 5'4" with a wrestlers neck. My mount is 3" cantilever. The photos above are the original Primary Arms. It was 1.45" in height but I was happy with it until I tried something lower and then I was much happier. Also, I am only an expert at this point. I need .5 points on my average to make master. Hopefully that will happen early in 2017.
OK all of that said. I will make a point that I think needs to be made. Shooting is a process and every process involves different amounts of trial and error to get it right. Sometimes we are lucky and get it quickly, other times not so much. I personally have done better with pistol than rifle. But a big part of that is shooting ALOT of matches and practicing 3-4 days a week and mentally rehersing 5 or 6 days a week. For example this past year I shot 40- 60 and 90 shot matches and 7-2700's. On the highpower side I mostly practiced 1 or 2 days a week and rehersed 3 or 4. I shot less than 20 matches total of all types since Jan 2016. I will add another 3 rifle and 2 pistol matches in early December at the Talledega 600.
If you put in the effort the results can seem miraculous to people looking from the outside. But they are far from miraculous.They are work. Work in bad weather and good. Work when you are tired and when you are fresh.
I will get some photos of the current rifle config in the near future. But I absolutely believe that each person will have some amount of trial and error to fine tune his or her system.
Mike
Quote from: goodoldfriend on November 14, 2016, 01:56:57 PM
I think the reason most are using a cantilever mount is that they cannot get a good, non ghosted or non ringed sight picture through their optics when the optic is mounted on only the receiver's rail with standard rings. The offset of the cantilevered rings allows one to maintain mounting to the receiver, not mounting to the receiver and hand guard rail.
Oh yeah, no doubt.
Right now I've got the scope rings as far forward on the receiver as they will fit, and I still get a little bit of ghosting. Not too much, but some. I know the scope needs to move further forward.
Here's where my understanding is getting a little bit fuzzy:
1. If you look at JMDavis' photo, the back of the scope appears to be at least 3" from the charging handle.
2. The eye relief on my scope is 3"-3.4"
3. Which would lead one to believe that, if you put NTCH, you would want the back of the scope to be 3"-3.4" forward of the charging handle (roughly).
4. Right now my rifle has the back of its scope probably 1" away from the charging handle, and I'm seeing a little ghosting. Probably enough that I need to move it another .5" forward.
5. But, assuming the eye relief on the scope is 3"-3.4", shouldn't I need to move the scope forward another 2"?
6. If I move the scope forward another 2", I don't get proper eye relief.
Clearly the back of the scope should be ~3" from the charging handle. So I'm doing something wrong. But I don't know what.
Or am I not understanding something?
Your data is more important than any stat for any tool. If 1.5 works for you. that is good, as long as it works in all positions.
Personally I think that your but postion may be a little high on the shoulder but its hard to tell and I would only change it to improve an upright head position or if I felt like my stability was compromised.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 14, 2016, 06:02:31 PM
Personally I think that your but postion may be a little high on the shoulder but its hard to tell and I would only change it to improve an upright head position or if I felt like my stability was compromised.
Very good feedback. Thank you JMDavis. I'll try to pay more attention to it.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 14, 2016, 08:28:27 AM
A quick Google for DNZ would be what I would do. Get the # to DNZ and call them. Make sure you have the specs for your scope. Tell them you want a 3" offset, and explain what optic you are using.
I called. No answer. So I emailed. What I emailed was:
"Hi,
I was looking to get a 3" offset picantinny rail scope mount to fit my Accushot UTG 3-12x44 30mm Compact Scope (https://www.leapers.com/prod_detail.php?itemno=SCP3-UM312AOIEW) ontop of a flat top AR15. The scope as a 53 mm objective. Will the Freedom Reaper be a good scope mount for what I'm looking for?"
The response I got didn't instill too much confidence:
Quote
It should work fine if it will fit in the rings.
Thanks
DNZ
I guess good enough?
SpecialKay,
Browse through the opticsplanet.com catalog. Search AR scope bases/rings. I don't like to recommend products, but check out Leupold. Lots of other choices just as good or better.
For my rifle, I tried every possible location on the rail until I found the one that worked for me.
aj
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 10, 2016, 08:42:26 AM
Basically, for 3 position shooting, the typical competitor needs a 3 inch offset mount. That allows one to get the proper eye relief and a repeatable cheek weld (NTCH).
. . .
Height over bore....as stated above, accomplished NRA competitors *Hi Masters* have tested a lot of stuff. The ideal scope height over bore is found to be 1.300".
I tend to listen closely to those much more knowledgeable than myself. But upon doing my own research, it appears that there are not many scope mounts that offer a 3" offset that is 1.300" above the rail (you said over bore, but I think you meant over rail, right?). And by not many, I mean very very few. So if this is such an ideal set up for the vast majority of shooters, why isn't it readily available?
Quote from: airplanejoe on November 15, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
Browse through the opticsplanet.com catalog.
I like opticsplanet.com, and they have plenty of options. Only problem is for most scope mounts they don't list how forward the cantilever is, how far the scope mount places the optic above the rail, the maximum objective the rings can "hold", or all three.
So I decided to contact customer service. They told me the closest thing they had that could fit a 53mm objective with a 3" forward offset is a vortex mount (http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-30mm-cantilever-riflescope-ring-mount-for-ar-15.html), but it's 1.59" above the rail.
So it looks like I can:
1. Go with the freedom reaper for $135 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00403LJLW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and hope it fits.
2. Go with the vortex for $88 (https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Cantilever-3-Inch-Absolute-Co-Witness/dp/B009QJLBDQ/ref=sr_1_3?srs=5454532011&ie=UTF8&qid=1479322492&sr=8-3&keywords=vortex+optics+cantilever+mount) and live with the extra .29" in height.
3. Poney up for the Keystone mount (https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/2632/see-all-departments) and likewise hope it fits.
What would you do?
I'd go with the DNZ, as long as you don't torque it in, you can return it.
As far as why no major manufacturers offer a height of 1.3, the high power shooting community is relatively small.
We only were allowed to add an optic to the rifle as of last year.
3 position shooting, is what we are talking about, and that is likely why no other manufacturers offer what we are discussing.
Look at some upgrades regarding the iron sighted rifles. A LOT of stuff came from the HP community, like rear peep diopters (Bob Jones)....sight blackening gadgets *Ray Vin Smoker*, etc etc. The major companies that support HP community are:
Creedmoor Sports
Compass Lake Engineering
Gieselle Automatics
Rock River
Keystone Accuracy
Not an inclusive list, but...good enough to illustrate a point, and also somewhat answer your question as to "Why others have not come up with this".
Again...only in the past year have optics been allowed. Most BIG manufacturers like those mentioned above are starting to offer "stuff" for the new change.
Hope that helps.
R/
Chris
Another point to the "Why other manufacturers don't offer"....
Scopes! Night Force just came out with a "purpose built" HP optic.
The rest of the field (HP community) are using Leupold VXR *think that is what it is...JMDavis mentions it in here* and the Vortex Viper PST 1x4 TMCQ MOA.
The Viper optic is great for the price point, and I would say the majority are using that. BUT it is not ideal. I mean...it is not specifically designed for NRA HP. It was just a scope in their lineup that competitors found to work, and work very well.
I'd venture to say that in the next 2 years, you will see more major optic manufacturers offer "purpose built" NRA HP optics AND RETICLES, and of course mounts.
It's just "too new" of a rule change. Past 50+ years were all iron sights, so it was a HUGE deal when they CMP/NRA allowed the optic.
Ideally, I'd like a 1/4 min click scope (not needed...but nice), with a duplex reticle without the hash marks and business in the reticle for ranging. I'd like a simple duplex reticle, with a circle that corresponds with the aiming black of the 600 yard target.
Watch..., it will come eventually. Who knows who will be first, Leupold? Vortex? Night Force?....Night Force is leading the way now I think.
Wanna know what the PROS are using, google the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) and you will see. I bet they are using Night Force scopes with Gieselle mounts. Not sure...I have not researched that. But you can if you desire to?
The AMU also offers excellent shooting tips and reloading advice. Rest assured, if they are using it...IT WORKS! And WORKS VERY WELL.
Hope that helped?
Again...relatively speaking the NRA HP shooting community (3 position shooting) is a small group, when you take into account the PRS stuff, 3 Gun, and all that other stuff.
R/
Chris
I happen to be Facebook friends with SFC Brandon Greene from the AMU. He just texted me that the mount they use is the Giessele and they use the Night Force scope.
Wanna see a dude that can "shoot" and do it very well. All disciplines, google him.
OK...headed out for the day. I'll likely be online later, if you have any more questions.
R/
Chris
I'm a big believer in the idea that good outcomes generally involve some trial and error. I also believe in minimizing that trial and error via research.
So here's the best advice I can offer on an inexpensive system that will work. White Oak sells a 3" cantilever rail that you can use with your own rings. Thus depending in the objective of your scope you can choose low, medium or high rings. That will be the most adaptable system that you can get and should be very cost effective.
Highpower shooting uses three positions and takes place out to 600 yards for Across the Course matches. This means that a scope needs to be usable in standing, sitting and prone from 200-600 yards. If you are a belly shooter, you only need a scope that works in prone.
My personal carbine wears an ARMS QD mount, an extended rail and 30mm rings to mount a Vadala M2. It is set as far forward as possible and has worked for everything I have used it for. But gor High a Power precision the scope is too high due to the combination of mount, rail and rings. Stand by for a photo of my current HP setup. It uses a UBR stock and a Keystone 1inch mount. It works for me.
Sorry for the shadows
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5504/31035293085_f8205d134e_z.jpg)
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5736/31035310295_7f6ecabfd9_k.jpg)
Note the marking on the stock in this one. That mark is for standing and sitting, I open up one for prone. There are also witness marks on my scope, my mount, my sling, and my coat.
Thank you to everyone for all the great advice. Additionally, thank you to those reading who have allowed me to hijack the thread.
I hope one day to get into HP shooting. But probably not today. Until that time happens, in recreational shooting and KD shooting I'd prefer to acquire the "right" equipment along the way, so if I do jump into HP it doesn't cost me several (more) thousands of dollars.
I know every shooter is different. Some will need a 1" offset, others a 3". Some would prefer a 1.300" rise, while others a 1.59" is probably just fine. Finding out where you fall is the difficult part. At $100-350 each, it's tough to look at it as a "we'll try this, and if it doesn't work we'll get another one." Well, at least for me. And that's only as it relates to the scope mount. No need to even talk about the barrel length, twist rate, trigger group, stock, optic, or any of the other "HP gadgets." Your mind starts to get blown.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 16, 2016, 04:52:03 PMWhite Oak sells a 3" cantilever rail that you can use with your own rings.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/highpower-competition/service-rifle-optics/extended-scope-rail-10-min-elev.html
I noticed it's elevated 1/2". If I'm using standard rings now and my eye relief is fairly good (at least, for someone who doesn't know for certain if it's good, it feels good), wouldn't rising it 1/2" cause problems? I'm not attempting to sound argumentative, not at all. I just want to make sure I avoid spending $100 on a riser, only to then have to spend $100 on new low profile rings, rather than getting a $150 mount.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 16, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
I'd go with the DNZ, as long as you don't torque it in, you can return it.
The direction I'm leaning at the moment. Since both DNZ and Vortex are offered through Amazon, I could return both of them fairly easily.
JMDavis' pic of his HP rifle....is pretty much like mine.
Great point on Witness Marks. I use a white permanent "very fine" marker to make marks on all mounting bolts/screws/etc for the mount.
Regarding every shooter being different. To a point yes..., but a minimum of a 2 inch offset is pretty much required for proper eye relief with NTCH. I won't harp on this anymore. I tried the 2 inch, and it was not enough....especially in seated.
Amazon...great return policy..., so simple to check with the DNZ mount. It "Should" work just fine for you. Only you will know.
As far as building up a rig for possibly future HP shooting....
I like your idea. Don't sweat barrel types and all that. It is really easy. 20" match grade barrel, at least 1:8 twist *to be able to shoot 80 grain bullets at 600 yards*.
Gonna start a new thread on that...as some may be interested in that. Gear for CMP competition/3 Position shooting. I'll call it a FWIW/YMMV post as always.
Please do update us SpecialKay...whatever mount you decide to go with. I'd be interested to see how that works out for you.
R/
Chris
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 16, 2016, 06:55:03 PM
Gonna start a new thread on that...as some may be interested in that. Gear for CMP competition/3 Position shooting. I'll call it a FWIW/YMMV post as always.
Please do. I'd be interested in that. As well as suggestions on progressing from Appleseed to CMP/HP.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 16, 2016, 06:55:03 PMPlease do update us SpecialKay...whatever mount you decide to go with. I'd be interested to see how that works out for you.
Will do, although it may take me some time to get the right system down and test it out.
Here is what works for me.
GG&G GS-1 FIRE System Optical Mounting Rail Flat - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Z58HDC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Use low profile rings (I use Vortex Low hunting rings and a Vortex Crossfire scope).
The scope won't fit so I had to mill unused part of that mounting rail. Took about 30-40 min with file but it's probably faster with an actual mill.
The upside is that scope is very low, also as far forward as it needs to be. Overall the setup is rock solid.
Specialkay
I think I understand your "problem". The pics on this thread, including mine, have a relatively low power scope with small diameter objectives. As an example. mine is a 1-4X24mm. Yours, I understand has a 53 mm objective. The choices become less in number. In your shoes I would try to find fellow shooters and try their equipment.
I'm sure that out there there is something that will suit your needs. It doesn't have to be a mount, you can find some pretty high rings.
aj
Specialkay
Regarding rings, Badger rings are 0.883" std. But they also offer an extra high 1.45". They are for 30mm scope tubes, but you can get inserts to reduce that to 1"scope tubes. Downside is they are pricey.
aj
The relevance and timeliness of this thread is uncanny. This is one of the most helpful threads that I have read in any forum on any subject in a long time! This is very helpful to solving my optic problem for my AR15. Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion! This should be a sticky!
Quote from: airplanejoe on November 18, 2016, 12:55:31 PM
Specialkay
I think I understand your "problem". The pics on this thread, including mine, have a relatively low power scope with small diameter objectives. As an example. mine is a 1-4X24mm. Yours, I understand has a 53 mm objective. The choices become less in number. In your shoes I would try to find fellow shooters and try their equipment.
What's the benefit of having a relatively low power scope with small diameter objectives?
EDIT: Because more than a 4.5x and 34mm objective isn't permitted per the rules. Sorry for the dumb question.
Specialkay.
No such thing as a dumb question. If anything isn't clear, ask.
aj
Actually a 4x, 1-4.5x or a 2-7 are excellent general purpose scopes. I prefer them to 3x9 optics for hunting and all round use in the east. Anything over about 6mm of objective per 1x starts to lose benefit. A larger objective captures more light, but it also weighs more.
Mike
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mopork/IMG_0021_zpsusru6rlf.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mopork/media/IMG_0021_zpsusru6rlf.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mopork/IMG_0022_zps0lf2icqb.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mopork/media/IMG_0022_zps0lf2icqb.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mopork/IMG_0023_zpsqqurr02e.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mopork/media/IMG_0023_zpsqqurr02e.jpg.html)
Chief Chris aka Navybowhunter hooked me up with the proper eye relief for 3 position shooting an AR today, so I have no excuses at the next KD.
Was great to see Chesty Puller yesterday (Hank).
Some things to also consider.....
I mounted Hanks scope yesterday for him...well he did I supervised. Anyways, Hank is a Rifleman so....he understands what NTCH means.
I also mounted a scope for another friend (non Appleseed Rifleman) on a slug gun yesterday. NIGHT and DAY difference between the two people. Granted the rifles are different also.
SO...
Position is very important. One will never likely "get" where the scope should really be....are they not using a proper/solid position.
The pic of Hank in standing, is really a good one. Head is erect....NTCH, elbow is supported by his stuff, it really is a pretty good pic of what NTCH in standing should look like.
Personally, I think Hank's scope should come back maybe a notch on the Pic Rail....but that is Hanks call, his position will dictate that for him. The mount he chose will allow him to move the entire mount FWD or AFT on the upper....without disturbing the "levelness" of the scope.
What he has now....is a crystal clear and immediate (key word immediate) sight picture in the seated position. If one needs to prarie dog their head....it is not "immediate", and that lends to a non repeatable position.
Mounting the scope....how do I do it?
It starts with one roughly placing the scope in the rings. Tighten them just enough to allow for FWD/AFT movement of the optic.
Have the shooter get in the seated position. Close the eyes, and bring rifle to the head (establish the position). If the sight picture is not crisp/clear and IMMEDIATE, have them remove the rifle...and move scope fore or aft....and repeat. Until that crisp/clear and IMMEDIATE sight picture is there. Then....
Well....On a 1 piece solid mount it is fairly easy. Take a set of feeler gages, and the flat on the mount, and the flat on bottom (of most) scopes....allow for one to easily level the scope in the rings. No feeler gage? Use a brand new deck of playing cards.
Thats pretty much my mounting process for a 1 piece solid mount.
Advanced:
Most one piece mounts come from reputable companies....Larue, DNZ, Giessele etc. The rings do not need to be lapped. However...on some rings...lapping may be in order.
You can YouTube ring lapping. It is not that hard.
But...in my experience, even with good Leupold dovetail mount rings...you are really only getting like 15% of contact between the rings and the scope tube.
After a lapping session, you can get it to where you have almost 90% surface contact.
Why is lapping important? Not too critical on say an AR15...low recoil rifle. Big bore bolt rifles, slug guns, muzzleloaders....those that PUNISH optics...a Lapping session may be in order....if you are not using a reputable 1 piece mount as mentioned above.
R/
Chris
Thanks for helping me out with the scope mount Chief. :bow:
I was surprised that pushing the scope forward and shortening the stock worked so
well in all 3 positions. ^:)^
In a previous post in this thread, I said "Thank You" for this great information. This got me moving in the right direction. Now for the update...
Joe (eaglescouter), Laurie (Norcal22Gal), April (April 6 Showers), and I went to the range yesterday. One of the things we did was install my new Leupold Mark AR 1.5 -4x 20mm FireDot-G SPR scope on my AR-15. We used the Vortex CM103 3 inch Cantilever Mount.
This puts the scope into the correct position for myself. I am 6-6 with a big build. This also put the scope in a usable position for my GF April who is 5-5. The height of this scope mount positions the center of the scope at 1.59 inch above the base. The build quality is very good and I anticipate that it will work well on my AR-15.
The mount is currently available on Amazon for $90 with free shipping.
Thanks everyone for helping solve this problem. Thanks Joe for your help.
Glad to hear it worked out TallSteve!
R/
Chris
Navybowhunter,
Thanks for your explanation of the process of getting the scope mount right. Somehow I stumbled onto something like this when I was getting a rifle set up for my daughter to use. It was hard to get her to be patient but as things improved she got it.
Thanks again sir! Thanks also to all who give of their time here to help others. I really appreciate it.
Quote from: airplanejoe on November 12, 2016, 10:28:09 AM
I would like to throw in for consideration another aspect. Human engineering. I heard a SB say that rifles are manufactured as "one size fits all", which in reality means "one size fits only a few".
Using myself as a model, now I stand barely 5'6". With an A2 stock (last version of the CMP rules I read did not approve collapsible stocks for CMP competitions) and my nose against the charging handle, the butt of the stock is on my bicep. That doesn't do any harm with a .223/5.56, but I like to build habit patterns. CMP is not my final goal, hunting is. If I did that with my 12 gauge shotgun or my 30-06 bolt rifle (I don't own a .338), I would be brushing my teeth with my left hand for at least a week (don't ask me how I know).
What I'm trying to say is this: proper scope position is where you can get a proper sight alignment; cheek on stock position depends on where you can get a good sight alignment with the butt of the stock resting on your shoulder pocket. Sounds like "what comes first, the chicken or the egg? " This is how I do it: first I place the rifle butt in my shoulder pocket (this is what's going to physically hurt me) and then I move the scope to achieve proper sight alignment. Eye relief will take care of itself if your sights are aligned.
I stand ready to be shot at dawn.
aj
Joe, you can take an A2 buttstock and change out the shell for an A1 which is 5/8" shorter (and re-use the A2 buttplate). I'm 5'6" and I've done that with all of my AR's. You can buy the shell and proper upper buttplate screw at Fulton Armory for about $28. The A1 gets rid of the plastic spacer at the end of the buffer tube, so needs an A1 upper screw. You might have to fiddle with the buttplate to get it to fit the A1 shell but I've always made it work. The A2 buttplate is better than the A1 IMO, because it has a more aggressive non-slip checkering than the A1, so this set-up gives you the best of both the A1 and A2, IMO plus you can usually find a UTG A2 kit for around $60 and swap the shell out for less than the cost of an A1 kit.
Here's a link to the A1 shell:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/buttstockstrippeda1newblack.aspx
And the screw you need:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/buttstockscrewuppera1.aspx
I did mention I broke my leg a few months ago right? Anyways...there...
So, I have a lot of extra couch time on my hands. Want to get a chuckle? For those of you on Facebook, check out the group ar15.com
I've never seen so many pictures of dysfunctional rifle setups in my life! It is truly a joy to watch/read.
R/
Chris
So I went ahead and got the DNZ scope mount and . . . . it doesn't fit the scope. Bummer. Looks neat though.
Now to figure out if I return the mount and try for another one, or hold onto the mount and wait till I can afford a "competition" scope to fit in the mount. Decisions decisions.
Quote from: navybowhunter on November 27, 2016, 10:13:15 AMSo, I have a lot of extra couch time on my hands. Want to get a chuckle? For those of you on Facebook, check out the group ar15.com
I've never seen so many pictures of dysfunctional rifle setups in my life! It is truly a joy to watch/read.
>:D Pretty sure we've all been to ArfCom at least once or twice.
No different than "race cars" or anything else -- some products are good for performance, some might be in theory but aren't practical, some look like they could be, and some are just for show... if that. No big deal. Some rifles get shot, and some don't.
FWIW my own AR-15 wears optics -- a TA33G-H ACOG. Not ever going to win a match with that, but getting eye relief right is easy, and it does well on a "hits count" unknown distance range... My other AR-15 is coming together as a service rifle build, all irons for as long as my eyes can hold out, but there is more to life than matches.
Heck, my favorite rifle is still my M1 Garand, warts and all. There are very legitimate criticisms of it, but I don't care. :))
Quote from: Rocket Man on November 29, 2016, 02:01:42 AM
Heck, my favorite rifle is still my M1 Garand, warts and all. There are very legitimate criticisms of it, but I don't care. :))
I love the Garand, and I'm still annoyed that I've not qualified with it on the AQT. Last time was mostly due to malfunctions of my "new" one.
More relevant to this thread, my wife (qualified Rifleman with 10/22) just decided she wants to try service rifle, but wasn't comfortable with the scope I had on my "spare" service rifle, and can't do NTCH in most positions. I swapped the scope for a carry handle and ordered the A1 stock shell that Bluesteel suggested. Maybe we'll try the scope again once she gets comfortable with a new platform.
I have been following this thread and just thought I'd chime in.
I bought a Vortex Strike Eagle scope and mount package from SWFA to put on an LMT upper I bought a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, the mount (Which is nice) that came with it won't allow me to get the scope far enough forward to get NTCH position. Here's hoping Santa will get my request for a Keystone Accuracy A5 NM mount for the scope. :)
Chris - How did you break your leg? At least it was after the Nationals!! >:D Get Well Soon
[quote
Chris - How did you break your leg? At least it was after the Nationals!! >:D Get Well Soon
[/quote]
Riverdance :bow:
Riverdance - **) **) **) **) **)
The best solution I've found for mounting a scope at the proper height for cheek weld and far enough forward for proper eye relief shooting NTCH is the YHM Extended Riser: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2696314296/yankee-hill-machine-extended-picatinny-style-riser-mount-ar-15-flat-top-matte I generaly go with the 6" model on AR-15s. It is a 0.5" tall riser, so if you use it with medium height 30mm rings, it puts center of ring around 1.33". With a low 1" ring, it is around 1.25". These heights certainly provide a better cheek weld than most of the one-piece mounts on the market, which are generally 1.5" or higher. I like Vortex Viper rings, which have coin slots in them that allow the scope to be quickly removed in the field with a variety of tools. Be aware if you mount your scope this low and have a fixed front sight base, the front sight post WILL create a shadow in the FOV that will degrade light transmission in your optic. I highly recommend using this in conjunction with a folding front sight of some sort, whether it's on the gas block or a free float handguard (if you're going to have a front sight at all). Also, with the scope this low, there aren't many rear sights that are low profile enough to clear the ocular housing of most scopes. The Spikes Micro and the Magpul PRO are the only decent ones I know of that will. I use the former on my rifles.
Here are some of my rifles with this setup:
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk201/henschman/guns/image_zps2caa7e55.jpg)(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk201/henschman/guns/EAA77DA0-9FF2-482F-B6E8-B7E2FFBB4F03_zpsuvtrx6me.jpg)
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk201/henschman/guns/20161013_135853_zpsy0ngjr2o.jpg)
Another consideration is what stock to use. If you have a collapsible stock, generally your cheek will be resting on the bare buffer tube if you're an average sized man shooting NTCH. This lowers your cheek height even more, and makes it even harder to get a real cheek weld. I greatly prefer a fixed stock for scoped rifles (unless I'm shooting in plates), because they provide a consistent cheek weld that is higher than a bare buffer tube.
If you have a collapsible stocked AR and 1.5" tall one-piece mount, don't sweat it -- you can still easily shoot to Rifleman's standards without a perfect cheek weld. Think of it this way -- you won't have any worse cheek weld than a guy shooting an iron sighted M1, M-14, or AR with the rear sight adjusted up to it's 500 yard setting. Just turkey neck out there, get your head in contact with the stock in some repeatable fashion, and get down to business.
henschman - The positioning of your slings looks very interesting. Why do you have them all positioned to the side and so far back?
I use a side mounted sling because I usually carry the rifle hanging across my chest in the low ready, making it quick to bring up to a firing position. You can easily use a tactical 2-point sling as a shooting sling when carrying this way, as long as the front swivel is located somewhere forward of where your support hand grabs the handguard -- simply wrap your wrist around the front portion of the sling like you would with a hasty sling. You don't have to worry about the sling sliding down your arm since it runs across your back. It helps to use the front swivel as a hand stop, which is why I have it placed about 6" from the back of the handguard. This puts my support elbow at a nice 90 degree angle. Using the sling this way provides as much support as a loop sling, and is quicker to get in and out of than either a hasty or a loop sling.
When shooting close quarters, I grab the handguard forward of the front sling swivel.
Disregard the first picture, where the sling is attached at the very rear of the handguard. I included it because it shows a good close-up of my riser and ring setup, but the sling can't really be used as a marksmanship aid when set up that way.
Would it be safe to assume that you lose some sling stability by positioning them this way when compared to a standard loop sling?
No, it's as stable as an Appleseed style (i.e. "snug") loop sling, but much faster to get in and out of. It also allows the rifle to be carried in much more effective ways than traditional shoulder carry. In other words, it's better in every way for field use.
It may give up some stability to a match style banjo-string-tight loop sling with a padded glove and shooting jacket... but that is in no way a viable option for use in the field.
So after reading all the advice, doing some research, getting the right parts and tools, and installing them, here's what my rifle looks like with it's optic on it. Look about right?
(http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/JustinWKay/IMG_0484_zpsgnz7xz1j.jpg) (http://s669.photobucket.com/user/JustinWKay/media/IMG_0484_zpsgnz7xz1j.jpg.html)
(http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/JustinWKay/IMG_0483_zpss2xrpe0z.jpg) (http://s669.photobucket.com/user/JustinWKay/media/IMG_0483_zpss2xrpe0z.jpg.html)
There is significantly more "play" in the eyebox than I thought there was though. I could probably move it back another half an inch and not notice much of a difference.
Quote from: goodoldfriend on November 12, 2016, 11:23:10 PM
Mr. McKinley sent me a pic of his setup (attached). It shows how he has his scope mounted with the Blackhawk riser he mentioned in his earlier post.
Thanks for showing it to me. I will keep it in mind if my Nikon offset rings don't work.
I like the logo on your rifle's lower. Is that something you had custom made or was this made in a large batch of lowers? Would it be within the rules of the RWVA for me to have a custom lower built with the same logo?
:F
Quote from: Mutant Texan on January 16, 2017, 07:56:01 PMWould it be within the rules of the RWVA for me to have a custom lower built with the same logo?
:F
Something fairly similar was in the works a while back. I believe it fell through though: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48613.0
SpecialKay, it looks PERFECT!
Really appreciate this thread...nice to steal ideas from others' experiences vs having to learn them (all) the hard way.
Last year's MI KD event showed me that my 51 year old Mark I eyeballs no longer can discern target numbers, etc out past the 2-300 yard mark. (Thank heavens I had KD qualified in past events...that was embarrassing!) It's time for optics and the new Service Rifle rules fit the bill.
I've co-opted the build below to be my Appleseed KD rifle (main one...I refuse to completely give up my WOA A2) and maybepossiblyifIcanfindthetime NRA HiPower/CMP Service rifle.
20" 1:8 Wylde barrel with a Nikon P223 1.5-4.5x variable in a Freedom Reaper mount. I'd prefer a lower mount but that's what the bank account dictated. The Magpul stock is nice...very tight lockup, I can change it between my prone/sitting position and standing to get a great NTCH position. By the way, I haven't seen it mentioned yet but I really like the Nikon...very clear glass, audible/tactile 1/4 MOA adjustments, repeatable. $160 on sale at Optics Planet. It does have the BDC circles on the lower stadia but they aren't very distracting. Geissele trigger, BAD lever, blah, blah, blah.
Questions for navybowhunter/jmdavis/others:
+ I still have the slim MLOK handguard on this (because I HATEHATEHATE quad rails). Fine for Appleseed but for Service Rifle? If I attach full length rails at 3/6/9 can I keep these? Or will I have to swap the handguard for one with permanently attached rails for NRA/CMP?
+ Originally built for this rifle, I saw no need for weight/cost/complexity of ejection port cover/fwd assist. Does the absense of them disqualify this rifle?
Thankee in advance.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2zfv5i1.jpg)
The answer to the rail question is that we don't know yet on the CMP side for service rifle. Logically rails at 12,3,6, and 9 meets the rule. But, there are a lot of rules lawyers out there. I would send the question to CMP, get an answer and then keep the letter with my rifle. But I would word it like, "My AR front handguard is a Rifle Length Mlock style with full rails at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock. Does this hand guard meet the new rule?"
You need to make sure that your swivel is at 13+- .5 inches from the mag well.
I wouldn't expect an issue at NRA matches as long as you have the rails.
Good luck.
SteelThunder,
New rulebook is out for CMP Service rifle. You can download that from the CMP Website.
The handguards were mentioned specifically as a rule change in this years rules. JMDavis addressed that below...basically, either ol skool A2 style handguards, or....a quad rail with "rail" at 3/6/9/12 o'clock position. I am not really sure "why" that was specifically addressed this year, but it has been. As JMDavis mentioned an email to CMP will get you clarification. I'll caution you to not get frustrated with the CMP's initial response. I asked 3 questions recently, and each question the initial CMP response was quoting paragraph/page in the rule book, or a cut/paste. Frustrating, but....after a few back/forth emails they gave me the clarification I was looking for on a certain rule.
As JMDavis mentioned...once you have it in writing from CMP....keep that on your smart phone....print a copy for your cart/data book...etc. You will likely run into someone on the line (block official/scorekeeper etc) that may question you. Very nice to be able to "whip out" your official CMP response.
Just ask BeSwift about this! LOL...he was counseled during a Garand match for using a Carbine, and it specifically states in the rules an M1 Carbine is OK to use during a JC Garand match! Even the "rules Police" are not familiar with every single rule. Why anyone would want to shoot an inherently less accurate rifle against the M1 Garand is beyond me...but Brian marches to the beat of a different drummer I guess. He also won a medal with the Carbine in a JC Garand match shot at 200 yards...so...there! LOL
Your RAIL looks sturdy, I'm not familiar with the brand? I'm going to assume that you have been locked in tight with the sling, and have had no issues? Regarding rail covers, those are legal. I use a Yankee Hill (slightly modified) rail, and the entire surface of pic rails at 3/6/9/12 are covered with Manta Rail covers. They are pricey, but considering I ruined two Creedmoor Gloves on the cheesegrater 6 o'clock rail....worth it to me. They also provide some "Grip" as well...as they are rubber(ish).
Reason I am mentioning that (rail brand/Sling connection), is it is a concern for me. I use a Ron Brown 1907 sling (it is STOUT) and when slung up tight I "Fear" using a "QD" attachment to the rail. In fact several competitors have a similar fear....ripping it out, ball bearing failing, etc etc.
That QD question was one of the things I had asked CMP to clarify. Rulebook states "No rifle handling" on the Ready line. Well...I wanted to know "IF" I chose to use a QD sling attachment point, if I could apply the loop sling to my arm prior to getting on the firing line. Sounds like it would be fine correct? Well....as JMDavis mentioned..."Rules Lawyers"....so I asked. It is LEGAL, but not specifically mentioned in the rules. It was also a concern, as to "competitive advantage"....meaning I would surely save some prep time getting the sling on behind the firing line....and simply "clicking in" (like the Match Rifle shooters) when on the firing line.
BUT....the concern of a QD failing is still not alleviated.
Check out "Keystone Accuracy"....they sell a modified YHM rail...where he drills the front of the rail for a permanent sling swivel. They are VERY stout. You could also discuss with John if your current rail could be modified as well. He could do it for you....or...you could but the swivel, pin and slave/starter pin from him.
On the "Absence" of dustcover/FWD assist, ask CMP but I think that would be illegal. It is supposed to be an "As issued" rifle....contradictory somewhat with the barrels and float tubes we use...but those are specifically allowed in the rule book....as is the trigger upgrade. Ask...but I think it would be a "no".
Why would you want to shave weight? Most want to ADD weight....and significant weight at that. My A2 had a lead wedge where the cleaning stuff goes in the stock....weighted handguards as well. That rifle weighed well over 18 lbs...but it balanced very nicely. My scope rifles have the MAGPUL UBR stocks...they are a bit heavier than the CTR/STR....and I also have a weight installed in the storage compartment of that stock. Rifle is lighter (no float tube....no weights in handguards) than my A2...but it balances nicely. You really would not be saving that much weight by removing those two items....we are talking "ounces".
Regarding a STOUT QD sling attachment for your rail...I recommend the Midwest Industries one...it seems to be very well built...and a mutual friend of JMDavis and myself (Marty) said he couldn't RIP it off when slung up....and Marty is a HARD Holder. I have one and am still debating using it, mostly out of fear of the QD itself failing...ball bearings/springs etc.
FWIW
R/
Chris
Thanks jmd/nbh
The rifle wasn't originally built for CMP/NRA, but rather it became co-opted for KD AQTs and adding appropriate optics when the MkI eyeballs failed. So that's why some of my choices seem sorta sub-optimal now. Just checking how far away I am from having a rifle in sanctioned matches...and you guys delivered! Thanks much.
The no dust cover forward assist may be fine. It would really only be a possible issue at an EIC match. If I asked the question, I would word it very carefully.
I have them because they are on the uppers that I buy.
Mike
On the FWD Assist and Dust Cover, the 2017 CMP rulebook (Dated 24 Jan 2017) specifically states that the dust cover and FWD assist must remain on the rifle in an "As issued" configuration.
R/
Chris
I would still send off the question, since the upper that you purchased was made without them. You might be refused, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. On a side note it now appears that the Mlock tube with rails at all 4 positions extending at least half of the length will be legal.