I would like to hear from people with first hand knowledge and experience in shooting the 300 Blackout.
Background: When I bought my first firearm in 2005, I researched and explored many options of caliber. I settled on buying a Yugoslavian SKS which is chambered in 7.62x39. This caliber offered everything I want in a round. It was about 30 caliber, more powerful than a pistol cartridge, less powerful than a full power rifle cartridge (you can shoot it all day and not wear yourself out), it is ubiquitous and best of all, it is one of the most affordable centerfire calibers available. The 300 Blackout would not be an official caliber for another 6 years after my adoption of the 7.62x39. The 7.62x39 caliber is accurate/precise in my Yugo SKS. I put some Tech sights on it and it has performed well every time I shoot it. I think it outperforms my AR-15 rifle in terms of predictability, bullet hit precision and sight radius (using the Tech Sights).
The thought at the time of me buying the SKS was to shoot this caliber and then look for an accurate AK-47 style rifle. I have not found an accurate AK-47 after an exhaustive search and like the Unicorn, I doubt one exists. Unfortunately at the time that I adopted and grew to love the 7.62x39, I did not know how much I would grow to detest the AK-47. I fired many different versions of it. I tried the Chinese Mac90, old Russian AK-47 in both forged receivers and stamped receivers, Hungarian AK-47s. Nothing I tried was pleasing to shoot. I have nothing but contempt for the AK-47 design. This opinion of the AK-47 was made from my personal observations and experiences with shooting it.
I recently found a fire arm worthy of shooting the 7.62x39 that is far superior to the Yugoslavian SKS. The CMMG Mutant MK47 (https://www.cmmginc.com/product-category/rifles/7-62x39/) has been nothing but a pleasure to shoot. I did have a few hiccups with the gun but they were all caused by operator error and they were easily and quickly dealt with. The Mutant performed well this last weekend on a 500 yard range with Magpul Pro iron sights. There was another guy shooting a bolt action chambered in 7.62x39 to my left while the rest of the line to my right was shooting .308 . I did not get the same loud hit confirmation that the .308 provided, but I did get muffled hit confirmations on more than half of the rounds that I sent downrange. The purpose of this posting is not about the rifle but more about the caliber. Based on my experiences with the Mutant, I am considering buying on of their 300 Blackout uppers because CMMG also offers similar rifles chambered in the 300 Blackout.
The 300 Blackout was approved by SAAMI in January of 2011 and it spans a large spectrum of bullet mass choices. You can shoot a light weight round at high velocities or shoot heavier bullets at subsonic velocities. This caliber is popular with suppressors when shooting subsonic ammo. This round has similar performance to the 7.62x39 at short ranges but is superior to the 7.62x39 at longer ranges.
One of the biggest advantages with the 300 Blackout round is that you can take any standard AR-15 receiver and install a 300 Blackout upper. The magazines for the AR-15 accept both the 5.56x45 and the 300 Blackout. I could see this possibly being a safety issue if one were to put the wrong caliber in the wrong upper.
The one thing the 300 Blackout can't compete against the 7.62x39 is the ammo prices. I can still buy a 40 round box of Tulammo at Walmart for about $11 a box. The 7.62x39 ammo is not always on the shelf but I am seeing 300 Blackout every time I visit in search of .22 LR or 7.62x39. 300 Blackout is about $16 for a 20 round box. Ironically, 7.62x51 brass cased ammo is about $10 for a box of 20.
The Blackout is popular with reloaders. I can buy new 300 Blackout brass for about $0.50 per brass case. I have seen youtube videos of people modifying 5.56x45 brass to 300 Blackout to cut the cost down. The 30 caliber bullets used in the 300 Blackout can also be used in .308, 30-06 and 30 carbine so adopting the 300 Blackout would bring a desirable compatibility with other rifles of the same caliber. The options of bullet styles and masses are vast so you can customize the round to fit your needs.
The 7.62x39 only comes in a few flavors and the affordable ones are all steel cased. It is everywhere because of the number of AK-47s in the USA so it should be easier at this time to find large quantities of it. This caliber is also old, proven and it has the advantage of being around for a long time.
Is the 300 Blackout something that I should wait on and gather more information about or should I take the plunge and invest money and time into it? It looks like the 300 Blackout outperforms the 7.62x39 but I don't know if the improved performance is worth the price. I want to read about the experiences & opinions of the other forum readers that own and have fired the 300 Blackout.
This is what I had in mind for shooting the 300 Blackout (https://www.cmmginc.com/shop/upper-group-mk4-rce-300-blk-sbn/) caliber.
I'll start by saying I've never owned or shot a 300 blackout. I've heard several people say that it wasn't what they thought it'd be by looking at it on "paper." They stated that they felt it wasn't worth the price of the upper and ammo. On the other hand, I've heard serval others say that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. They only way for you to be sure is to actually shoot one and make up your own mind. And you seem happy with the 7.62x39 so as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
However, and my main point of my reply, is that I wouldn't add a new round to the mix right now unless you reload and have plenty of components or already have a deep stash of said ammo. Instead, I'd stock up even more 7.62x39 in your case. I can see there being a looooooooooooooooooooooooong dry spell with higher than normal prices on ammo starting in a couple weeks. While popular it's still not produced anywhere near the volume as 223, 308, ect which means the fewer runs made won't spread to far in a panic buying environment and if you do find some you probably will be limited to a box or two. That doesn't give much trigger time. It was only a few months ago over the summer that I saw pistol powder commonly available online since the Sandy Hook shootings almost 4 years ago. I don't venture into local gun shops too often but I haven't seen any 22's on the shelf locally since months before the last presidential election.
ditto,
If you have some cash to spend, buy .762X39 ammo.
I have a 300 blackout AR upper and, a ruger American bolt gun. They are it's fun but in semi auto and unsuppressed, there are some function issues. I have never fired a CCMG mutant, and there is a very good chance that those rifles have no function issues.
The blackout will be a little harder to get 500 yard hits with due to lower velocity in the same bullet weight.
I would not be so quick to say .300 BLK outperforms 7.62x39, because that's really a question of what your applications are. .300 BLK was designed for, and shines in, a suppressed SBR. If you aren't checking either of those boxes, and have a lot of 7.62x39, I would probably just get a good AKM or vz.58 or Galil ACE in your shoes. I don't detest any of them, though.
I see .223 vs 7.62x39 as a philosophy change, and (un-suppressed supersonic) .300 BLK vs 7.62x39 / .223 vs 5.45x39 as primarily hardware changes.
74 vs 47, but Rob Ski doesn't seem to have a problem hitting steel with 60-grain Wolf at 400. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtuKHo2zLhY) Kalashnikov-pattern rifles that are "accurate enough" definitely exist.
I would be a little bit concerned with getting a good trigger on an AK somehow, and somewhat more concerned about getting consistent ammunition from whatever Russian state arsenal the average rebranded or surplus 7.62x39 round came from.
Are you married to semiautomatic fire? Heck, you could get a CZ mini-Mauser in 7.62x39 and be done too.
(I may or may not be projecting my need for a CZ 527 rebarreled in 6.5 Grendel onto you).
I "had" a .300AAC/Blackout.
My experience is limited to the AR platform, shooting supersonic bullets.
First, I found the round a bit cumbersome to tune, with my rifle. Issues with cycling, and bolt not locking home on the last round in a magazine.
Rectified the above, by using a medium weight Wolff Carbine buffer spring. I also had to beef up the extractor some, used a Wolff extractor spring and an O ring.
That solved my cycling issues with .300AAC supersonic ammo.
I was working up handloads for the rifle, but still did not find a sub-moa load for it. The best shooting round was the Remington OTM 125 grain factory ammo. That stuff shot just at MOA or a hair over at 100 yards.
.300AAC/Blackout is a great round for the AR for hog hunting. I did do some research on the Barnes TTSX bullets (info is on the innernet) and that stuff has real good terminal ballistics.
As far as 7.62x39 versus .300AAC: Tons of info out there as well. Both serve a purpose. I believe the .300AAC is more accurate in supersonic offerings. The bonus of .300AAC is that in the AR platform logistically it uses the same bolt and magazines. That is a plus for many.
I've seen issues with these "wildcat" AR rifle offerings, such as .300AAC, 7.62X39, 6.8SPC...etc. All can and do work, but may require some "finesse"ing.
Reloading for the .300AAC can keep the cost of ammo down. Right now .300AAC ammo is very expensive. I remember a box of 20 of the Remington Premier 125 OTM's were almost up to $50 a box!
Traded my .300AAC upper for a 1917 Eddystone for CMP Competitions. I no longer own one, nor will I likely ever own a .300AAC again. There are just too many other options out there for my needs when it comes to hunting.
SO....if one wants a 7.62x39 I would say get an AK. That is the platform for that round. I'll never own one, as they do not impress me much at all. Although ammo is right now very available and cheap.
If one wants a .300AAC, I'd say the only benefit "other than cool factor" is that wide range of supersonic/subsonic ammo. IF I ever were to be convinced to purchase a .300AAC again, I would want to have a suppressor as well. That is likely never going to happen for me.
Hope that helps.
R/
Chris
.300 in supersonic is just a way to get 7.62x39 ballistics into an AR-15 magwell. It's a suitable choice if you like your AR and want to use it for something like deer hunting at moderate ranges, or in places where .30 cal is required. .300 really shines in subsonic, but there's no reason to go from 7.62x39 to .300 unless you want to shoot subsonic ammo suppressed from a short barrel.
If you want to get more out of the 7.62x39 round, get a CZ 527 carbine for accuracy and a VZ 58, or PTR-32, or one of the bastardized AResque rifles. Then you can keep buying cheap ammo.
Quote from: lupis42 on October 26, 2016, 12:20:24 PM
.300 really shines in subsonic, but there's no reason to go from 7.62x39 to .300 unless you want to shoot subsonic ammo suppressed from a short barrel.
To me, .300 BLK subs are the American answer to 9x39.
Very curious about how a 220-gr subsonic compares to SP-5 & SP-6 at 300/400 yards in the real world.
Quote from: lupis42 on October 26, 2016, 12:20:24 PM
If you want to get more out of the 7.62x39 round, get a CZ 527 carbine for accuracy and a VZ 58, or PTR-32, or one of the bastardized AResque rifles. Then you can keep buying cheap ammo.
I already have one. I bought the CMMG Mutant early last spring from Bud's Gun Shop. I have taken it out a few times and it is a very good shooter. I have not found an AK magazine that will not fit in it. I am most impressed with how well it was designed. The bolt in the Mutant is an AR-10 bolt that rides in a modified bolt carrier. The bolt carrier is larger and beefier than the 5.56x45 bolt carrier but a bit smaller than the AR-10 bolt carrier. The muzzle break on the end gives the gun one hell of a bark to the people next to me and gives less kick than my more massive SKS. I was a bit worried that the muzzle brake would bother the people next to me. I asked them if it would bother them if I shot it and offered to stop if it was too much for them to tolerate.
The guy next to me last weekend on the KD range was firing an Australian bolt action 7.62x39 that also uses AK magazines. I offered up my Mutant for him to try because he seemed interested in it and I wanted to see if his magazine would work in my
rifle. The Mutant chewed through the magazine with no issues.
Based on the comments from the people that have used the 300 Blackout, I think that I will pass on it for now. Cheap 7.62x39 ammo is hard to pass over for 300 Blackout. Since I am not using that horrible AK design and have the Mutant, there really is no reason for me put money into the Blackout. I don't have a SBR and have no interest in buying a suppressor.
What do you find objectionable about the Kalashnikov design?
Given what you already have with the CMMG Mutant, I don't think you would gain any capability with a .300 BLK. 7.62x39 is a higher performance round. .300BLK is really designed for suppressed subsonic used with very heavy bullets - hence the shoulder being so far back. The resulting short OALs with short bullets really eat at powder capacity. The round would ideally be configured with the shoulder farther forward (like 7.62x40 WT) for supersonic long range use.
Quote from: Kennebago on October 26, 2016, 07:02:09 PM
What do you find objectionable about the Kalashnikov design?
I am not completely against the AK design. I do own a few Saiga shotguns. I have shot many AK based guns and none of them were precise. What I mean by this is that the bullet would not hit the same spot consistently like my SKS would. I have just never had a good shooting experience with an AK design because it is so loose. I also recognize that this looseness also gives it reliability. I have the same feeling when I shoot a frankin AR-15 rifle that has a poor fit between the upper and lower. I just don't like the feel of it. My contempt for the AK has nothing to do with the caliber and is only concerned with the design of the gun. The Mutant perfectly marries the 7.62x39 and AR style design that is accurate & precise as well as reliable. Until the Mutant came along, I had never researched AK magazines.
The SKS is not an angel either. I had a lot of accuracy problems with my SKS due to a screwed up rear sight. It did however put the bullet in the same wrong hole over and over. When I put the Techsights on the SKS, the accuracy problems went away and I was left with both an accurate and precise rifle that was very different to the AK.
I have loved the 7.62x39 caliber since adopting it as my caliber of choice in 2005. I also own a few 5.56x45 caliber rifles. I always get annoyed when I see people wanting to argue over which one is better. I like them both and recognize that they are different calibers that have different strengths and weaknesses (maybe I like apples and oranges depending on the main course). The 300 Blackout appears on paper to be close to the 7.62x39 in terms of their performance and I am extremely interested in it. I just want to avoid needlessly spending a lot of money for something that is over promised and over priced.
Well, I see a couple cases of 7.62x39 ammo in your near future :~
Buy what you can while it's cheap and available!
Quote from: Mutant Texan on October 26, 2016, 07:55:04 PM
I have shot many AK based guns and none of them were precise. What I mean by this is that the bullet would not hit the same spot consistently like my SKS would.
I would suggest keeping an open mind here. Most kit AKs in the US are built...generously. That doesn't necessarily mean the design is the biggest obstacle.
Jim Fuller seems to get 2-3 MOA with surplus ammo out of the AKs he builds (I do not own one), which is plenty comparable to an off-the-shelf AR. The
price for those things, however...
That said, pick whatever you like best and let your freak flag fly!
I built an AK-74 at Jim Fuller's Rifle Dynamics shop in Vegas last November, and it is a freaking tack driver! :~ It's my favorite rifle. I also own an 8.5" .300 AAC for which I have a suppressor. With that setup it outshines the AK-47 for my uses. I will be using it to hunt deer and hogs, and doing so without hearing protection makes up for the fact that AK-47 ammo is cheaper. I already get cheap 5.45 AK plinking ammo, so I'm not too concerned about getting cheap 7.62x39 ammo. The ballistics between the .300 and 47 aren't all that different, so the suppression capability, especially subsonic, squelched my desire for an AK-47.
I love my mini 30 in 7.62x39 and can't believe how accurate it is.
I have both. If you want to buy a suppressor, by all means it's worth going 300blk. If not, save your money and work with what you have. High quality brass cased 7.62x39 is head and shoulders better than cheap steel cased ammo. You don't need a new cartridge to get more accuracy, you need good ammo. You already went for a higher end gun in that caliber, so that's covered.
If you want a silencer, you want the 300blk. If that isn't an option where you live there isn't enough difference to be worth the cost.
Quote from: jlwilliams on May 13, 2017, 07:29:48 PM
I have both. If you want to buy a suppressor, by all means it's worth going 300blk. If not, save your money and work with what you have. High quality brass cased 7.62x39 is head and shoulders better than cheap steel cased ammo. You don't need a new cartridge to get more accuracy, you need good ammo. You already went for a higher end gun in that caliber, so that's covered.
If you want a silencer, you want the 300blk. If that isn't an option where you live there isn't enough difference to be worth the cost.
I live in Ohio, which ironically has better gun laws than my home state of Texas. Yeah you heard that right. A Yankee state has Texas beat when it comes to gun rights! I am not interested in a suppressor due to the NFA hurdles. I am hoping that the bill moving through congress to regulate suppressors the same way non-NFA firearms are regulated gets through and is signed into law. If I did not have to pay the $200 for a stamp and get my permission slip from the ATF, I would buy several suppressors for different calibers.
I am probably never going to look at 300 Blackout again because it is too expensive. The Mutant rifle of mine shoots bulk Russian or Chinese made 7.62x39 very well already. The Mutant is far superior than the standard AK-47 patterned firearm. I have not put any American made brass cased ammo through it yet. Maybe someday if I can find a good deal on it, I might buy it and test it.
Instead of a 300 Blackout, I am giving some serious thoughts to buying a CMMG Guard with a suppressor. If they can ever design the gun to use a .45 Super in addition to the .45 ACP, I would buy one in a heart beat. 300 grain .45 Super ammo fired at subsonic velocities would be perfect for a suppressor.
Last time I bought 7.62x39 I found Sellier&Bellot for reasonable money. It's not "match grade" but it's better than Wolf.