Project Appleseed

Hi. I did my first day of my first Appleseed today.  I did not have a good time.   I wear glasses and have herniated discs in my neck. Now, if I "set up" as I was instructed, with my support arm straight up and down under the rifle, and use that [expletive deleted] sling, I need to crane my neck at a PAINFUL angle to get any sight picture.  However, this sight picture is defective in that I will be looking OVER the top of my glasses, thereby rendering them superfluous.   I'm trying to practice at home and find that if I angle my support arm, it is much more comfortable for me and I can look through my glasses.   I realize this is against the training.  Rifle is Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights.
In light of this, does anyone have any tips or tricks as to what I'm doing wrong?    To be fair the instructors did try to help me but there were a lot of shooters and they had their hands full.   They deserve a resounding round of applause.
I will appreciate any help.....haven't shot prone since I was 12 at Boy Scout Camp.

You might find some useful ideas in this article: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47519.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47519.0).

thanks...I will read that thoroughly

A picture is worth a thousand words, and maybe more in this case. Very hard to guess what the issue(s) might other than it sounds like something is wrong based on your description. Any chance you could post a picture or two?

Positions are ALWAYS dependent on body configuration and flexibility. In the US AMU international Rifle Marksmanship Guide's description of the prone position they make the statement that the left arm should be as close to the rifle as possible without causing pain.

It would help with recoil recovery if you could get your arm more vertical BUT, you have to work with your flexibility issues. I would advise you to move the elbow outboard as far as it takes to let you have a repeatable position without causing too much neck pain. Overtime your flexibility may improve. But you have to work with what ypu have at any given time.

If you are looking over your glasses, then the comb of the stock is too low to fit you.  A piece of pool noodle foam and vet wrap would build up the stock there to fit YOU.  It would also reduce the stress on your neck and spine.  YOUR rifle should fit YOU.  If it doesn't, then the stress in your neck and back will be excruciating.  As the other guys said, a picture would help in seeing what the problem(s) are.

Pool noodle floatation foam is on sale now for 50 cents each at many stores.  Vet wrap goes on sale soon, too, at Tractor Supply Company, for 50 cents a roll, too, usually, around this time of year.  A sharp knife, and you can make the stock fit you.  Without making any permanent mods to your rifle stock.

-- Gary

Help with cheek weld. http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47300.0

From the post above reply #9. Read the entire post. Excellent.

CHEEKPIECE AND CHEEK WELD  - CAN YOU FALL ASLEEP IN PRONE?

I needed to build up the stock on my BM PCP and 1022. Take a peek at the post above for a look at the cheekpiece for both the 1022 and BM PCP. I have attached picture here showing both rifles.  No beauty contest and  downright ugly but they get the job done.  The cheekpieces have a medical theme. 

The cheekpiece on the BM PCP is a stretchable elastic bandage. The material sticks together and makes for a comfortable nonslip surface that is easy to adjust in height. I used an entire bandage. Maybe $3.

The cheekpiece for the 1022 is a wrist brace, elastic bandage and a tendon strap. Cost is still $3 as other items were on hand.

An easy and cheap solution.

All the effort with cheekpieces made the prone position very comfortable once I trained muscles and joints to "like" the prone position.  Relax into the sling with a comfortable consistent cheekpiece and cheek weld and you will be snoring like a warthog. 


Bob

The best advice I can offer is to get comfortable in YOUR position. If your support arm isn't vertical and your leg is not bent properly but you are comfortable you will shoot better than if your form is perfect but you rush or jerk your shots because you hurt. I also agree that you need to get your cheek weld raised, the foam and wrap work well.

That having been said, my prone form was attrocious but I kept practicing at home and, wonder of wonders, I loosened up and finally got it right!

thanks for the help.
There are no pictures, so no help there.
Fall asleep in prone?,,,,Impossible, the position is excruciating.                            On the last course of fire I just pulled the trigger so I could put the damn thing down...I didn't care where the bullet went and since I couldn't see the sights, it didn't make much difference.
One of the instructors gave me a piece of that foam material and wrapped it to the stock, can't say if it helped or not.
At least I've got ideas to work with now. Appreciate it.

I've had the glasses issue before, I've found that if I put the nose piece on the far side of my nose (toward my non shooting eye) I can see thru a good part of the lens.

Prone can certainly be uncomfortable at first, but it should not be excruciating. First guess is the sling is too tight. It's amazing how the sling, if it's not right, can mess up your position in many ways. Try getting into a prone position without the sling, and see if you can find a more comfortable position without it. If you can, get a helper to add a sling while your in position and get the sling tension right. If you can't find a good prone position without the sling then we may need to take a step further back and help you find something that will work with your neck issues.

I've been practicing some today.  If I modify the position of my support

Coincidence!  I worked the St. Augustine AS today!  Just missed meeting you.  Maybe next time!

- Gary

When that alarm went off, I was so stiff I said "No way".....I had zero fun yesterday and had no desire to repeat it.
Hopefully we'll get to meet next time.
BF

I can sympathize. My first appleseed I was sore and had rug burn. It takes work to get into the positions. Keep working at it, and you'll find yourself falling into them easier and easier. Keep it up, and the next time around you'll be saying "wow, its so easy, I can't believe I struggled before". We've all been there. Keep up the good work and we hope to see you again!

You say you have herniated discs in your neck?

Possibly that is why you find the position painful.  As stated previously, a picture would help to diagnose your position.

I would recommend that you speak with a doctor about the position, and see if it is something that you are even physically capable of doing.

If your medically OK for the position, next step would be another Appleseed, or simply have your wife or a friend take a few pictures of you in the prone position.  The best one you can put together.

There is pain from not utilizing muscles that have weakened, and then there is pain from a medical issue.  Not wanting to see you injure yourself more than you already are.

R/
Chris

Brian,
When looking around Sunday morning to see who had arrived, I missed you hoping that a nights rest had helped.
After adding one strip of narrow foam on the top of the stock on Saturday since it did look as you were hovering to get a sight picture, I was delighted when you responded it seemed to be an improvement.  Usually with iron sights any larger buildup is NOT needed as it is with scopes due to the height of sights over the bore.
When asking you later how you were doing & finding you were still challenged,  I believe it was mentioned that shooting from a chair was another possibility to avoid unrelieved discomfort especially due to an existing health problem......we have certainly had quite a few other students do that in a safe manner in the past. Your obvious desire to learn is most  admirable & you sir are a fine American who exhibits determination. it is awesome you have been reading the info on the forum & asking for suggestions. From the many responses to your questions, I bet you can tell there are many instructors who stand ready to help.
Another possibility is to use a seated position you can tolerate instead of prone. It is allowable to shoot for score by using a less stable position. We have seen folks shoot stages 3 & 4 of the AQT in seated position & score though it is more challenging to do.
Perhaps checking with your doctor re prone position in the future would be good information. I do hope to see you at a future event. Let the shoot boss know when you check in about your challenge at the first event so we can get right on solving the problem early.

I cannot add much to what has already been said. Having had a herniated disk in my neck in the distant past, I can fully understand the difficulty you must have been having. I do remember thinking of nothing other than "make it quit hurting!". I wish I had known of this problem earlier. For almost everyone the prone position is not particularly comfortable without a fair amount of practice first, so the additional challenge presented by neck issues can easily be missed. The prone position certainly does pose the biggest problem for those with neck problems. You can certainly work with comb height on the stock, experimenting with elbow position, body index, and sling tension but the resolution is likely to require a fair amount of time trying to find what works best for you. 10-15 minutes of dry practice every day may help if the problem is primarily a flexibility issue or a rifle fit problem. If you can find a prone position that keeps the rifle steady, then it is all good even if it doesn't match exactly what we teach. If no prone position can be worked out that is tolerable, then the use of one of the seated positions could work as, properly done, the seated position can be almost as stable as prone and certainly can be used to shoot the AQT for stages 2, 3, and 4. And, best of all, the seated positions do seem to put less stress on the neck.

Rambo Granny and 9mm4545
I want to thank you guys for all you do and the opportunity to participate in these events.
  My neck usually doesn't hinder me much, I didn't expect this.  I am practicing and will get one of those laser bore sights to verify mypoint of aim.  If I modify the position it is better. As the day progressed I became increasingly frustrated as I watched my shooting degrade.  I didn't want to be the guy that did all the complaining so I tried to tough it out.  Didn't work out too well.   I plan on attending the spring event as I can't make the one in December.
I hope to see you both again.

Quote from: cwcdl79 on October 16, 2016, 08:31:24 PM
I've had the glasses issue before, I've found that if I put the nose piece on the far side of my nose (toward my non shooting eye) I can see thru a good part of the lens.

I would never have thought of this.  Thanks

Quote from: rambo granny on October 17, 2016, 03:09:24 PM
Brian,
When looking around Sunday morning to see who had arrived, I missed you hoping that a nights rest had helped.
After adding one strip of narrow foam on the top of the stock on Saturday since it did look as you were hovering to get a sight picture, I was delighted when you responded it seemed to be an improvement.  Usually with iron sights any larger buildup is NOT needed as it is with scopes due to the height of sights over the bore.
When asking you later how you were doing & finding you were still challenged,  I believe it was mentioned that shooting from a chair was another possibility to avoid unrelieved discomfort especially due to an existing health problem......we have certainly had quite a few other students do that in a safe manner in the past. Your obvious desire to learn is most  admirable & you sir are a fine American who exhibits determination. it is awesome you have been reading the info on the forum & asking for suggestions. From the many responses to your questions, I bet you can tell there are many instructors who stand ready to help.
Another possibility is to use a seated position you can tolerate instead of prone. It is allowable to shoot for score by using a less stable position. We have seen folks shoot stages 3 & 4 of the AQT in seated position & score though it is more challenging to do.
Perhaps checking with your doctor re prone position in the future would be good information. I do hope to see you at a future event. Let the shoot boss know when you check in about your challenge at the first event so we can get right on solving the problem early.

Rambo,
Thanks for your help.  Initially I thought the foam helped, but as the day progressed it became obvious to me that this was going to need more than a piece of foam.
I'm not  ready to start shooting from a chair yet, I want to make sure there are no other options first.  There's a fine line between determined and dense.  I'll let you guess which side I'm on.
While I haven't specifically asked my doctor about prone shooting, the only restriction he told me I had was not to play full contact rugby or football.

I'm sure we'll get this figured out.

I had to modify the angle of my prone position overall. I moved my feet more to the left. I read somewhere that the arm does not have to be vertical under the rifle. The most important thing was that the rifle was aligned over the "pivot" elbow, or as close as possible. More angle to the left will help that happen.

My flexibility has improved as I have been working on the shooting skills so all positions are more comfortable. Shooting a lot this year has even helped me regain flexibility in my knee after the knee replacement in January. I have lost weight because of Appleseed participation...well, preparing for the physical aspect of it. As a result, my seated position is easier (less belly) and is easier to pull off.

Keep at it. Becoming a competent shooter is such a rewarding skill to have.

Also, and this is just MY opinion, Appleseed trains to a standard. This is for a many reasons. Shooting is personal. Work at it to find out what works for you.
I don't use a standard GI sling although I know how to use one because of Appleseed. Nothing was said to me at the last event I attended. In fact, one of the instructors was interested in the sling I was using.

I hope you keep at it and find what works for you.

Please take care of yourself. To me being a rifleman means more than a 210 score on the AQT. It means persistence and a willingness to strive for the mark.

Think of the dangerous old men. Remember one shot using their horse's back as a rifle support. That is not a position that Appleseed teaches but it got the job done, didn't it?

Another point, you don't mention how tall you are.  The length of pull on a 10/22 is on the short side.  If you are average height or taller a longer stock may help as well.

Stop before you reach the extream pain level.  When you hurt that much form suffers and you start loosing more than you gain.

Some also put an ear plug under the bridge of their glasses to help raise them up.

Don't let pride get in the way.  If physical limitations won't let you shoot prone there is no shame in shooting from a chair.

Sounds like you are in good hands if you let them help you.  The choice is yours.

Chuck

If you have exercises that help with your pain be sure you are doing them.  If not ask the Dr. or Physical Therapist for some.  When I skip my exercises I hurt a lot more.

From post #6 above:

"All the effort with cheekpieces made the prone position very comfortable once I trained muscles and joints to "like" the prone position.  Relax into the sling with a comfortable consistent cheekpiece and cheek weld and you will be snoring like a warthog." 

I know your frustration. Initially for me prone was miserable. At 69, with a bit of medical history, prone for me is a challenge.

In order to get to "snoring like a warthog" I endured hours of dry fire practice, reading and rereading Fred's "Becoming Riflemen" and 3 Appleseeds.

I finally felt comfortable in prone by AS number 4.


I had doubts along the way but all the work was worth it. Think of prone as "free" physical therapy.
Physical therapy could not have given me better results.

:)

Good luck.

Bob

Free physical therapy....how true. Heck, my trigger side shoulder hurts less after a day shooting.

Please let us know how you are doing, share your story. Ask lots of questions on the forums. I have had so much help and encouragement from most here.

Wanted to let everyone know I'm still practicing, got my ebay bore laser and am having great fun with it....Lets me see how everything can affect point of aim.  Haven't given up, and I think I'll do much better next time.

keep on keeping on! we all look forward to seeing you on the line again!

Quote from: bfitz241 on November 10, 2016, 08:13:32 PM
Wanted to let everyone know I'm still practicing, got my ebay bore laser and am having great fun with it....Lets me see how everything can affect point of aim.  Haven't given up, and I think I'll do much better next time.

This is a Rifleman...  :bow:

 First you need to build a stable and consistent position that you can maintain. Practice getting into position, make note of where your body is and how it feels. Write down the tensions. You want to be able to make these repeatable. Write down the things that you think are important to a good prone position.

Then Take some time and dryfire on a blank wall without the laser. Do that several times for maybe 30 minutes a day over the course of a week. Then try to live fire some. But don't live fire at 4 MOA squarres. Try to find the stage 4 targets of the AQT. I think that Fred still sells the original two page AQT that has 10 stage 4 targets. These are excellent practice targets. When you master slow fire, rapid fire will become much better (I tried to do the opposite with prone and it didn't work well).

If you have to shoot the squares your target is not the square, it is the CENTER of the square.

Here are some 4 MOA circles I made with a 2 MOA center in a different color. This is a Word document. I think you can still get a Word viewer from Microsoft. If not I should be able to save it as a PDF. I can change it some if needed. Please let me know.

If you can video tape or have someone take some pictures of you in position so you can evaluate yourself.  It is amazing what being able to see what your are doing and be able to compare it with what it feels like.

Another use for the laser is to adjust it down to where you can't see it when in position but video it's movement while you dry fire.  This gives you the benefits of the recommended blank wall drill and the feedback of the laser when you review the video.

Charles Mckinley,

Here is one of me practicing in prone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVdLOeGB6hI

R/
Chris