My Marlin 795 was originally sighted in using the bulk Remington box from Walmart. On switching to Federal it was necessary to adjust the scope, and again when using CCI minimag. I understand each manufacturer having different standards, that's reflected (at least in part) by the differences in velocity and other data shown on the boxes.
Does a general consensus exist as to which brand or which subset of a brand is preferable for Appleseed shoots? Is one noted for being more accurate, cleaner, cheaper or whatever?
Quote from: DanT on September 14, 2016, 08:03:30 PM
Does a general consensus exist as to which brand or which subset of a brand is preferable for Appleseed shoots? Is one noted for being more accurate, cleaner, cheaper or whatever?
CCI standard velocity and minimag are both clean, reliable, and 4 MOA or better in my 10/22 rifles. I've had mixed success with others. Federal AutoMatch is pretty clean, groups okay, but tends to stovepipe on me during a timed course of fire. The Remington I've had (Thunderbolt, I think) is so dirty that I hate using it.
Really, though, it depends on what your rifle likes. I was shooting 2-3 MOA with Winchester M22 (loose packed, bulk ammo) last weekend, in a 1940s Stevens 416 at 100 yards. The Minimag was all over the place at that distance.
Just got done reading another thread that didn't (at first) seem to apply -- the "Is subsonic better than 22lr" one right at the top of the forum. The general feeling there agrees with your conclusion -- "best" is whatever works best for you in that particular rifle. The only thing they did not address was cleanliness -- a current concern given the difference between green box and white box ammo at my last shoot. Next one will use either Federal or, if the price is right, CCI minimag.
My experience mirrors maxwell's a good deal. Fed automatch works well in some of my rifles, in others not so much. Rifles tend to have individual preferences,and sometimes it is worthwhile to test a few different types if you have the luxury to do so.
For Appleseeds, you just need something that will cycle reliably and be good enough to shoot at least 1" at 25 meters. Honestly, most anything will do that. For our purposes (scoring 210 or above), the trick is to find the most reliable load you can afford to feed your rifle in volume so you can practice because you have a lot more to do with your score than your ammo does. You really need to get a little of everything and test it in your rifle to know for sure what it likes or doesn't like, unfortunately.
Just my opinion, but it seems to me that ammo breaks down like this in the US: under 10 cents a round is mostly bulk and that is usually "good enough". From 10-17 cents is CCI Standard through SK Standard Plus or Wolf MT, which strikes a really nice balance between accuracy and cost in most rifles, but is probably overkill. Anything above 20 cents a round is straight-up unnecessary for AQT needs.
I shoot the cheapest stuff I can find in my 10/22 and I am still the limiting factor in that combination on AQTs. My CZ gets all of the decent ammo.
I have tested virtually every brand in our 10-22s. I have finally concluded that the best combination of function and accuracy comes from CCI Standard Velocity.
Agree. If it was possible to go Scrooge McDuck and swim around in a vault full of CCI Standard, you better believe I'd be doing it already.
CCI SV thirded. Especially if you want to go out beyond 50 meters. I have a Scrooge McDuckian amount of it (could probably fill a washtub).
However there are some semi's that short-stroke with it. CCI Minimag or Blazer is almost idiot-proof in my experience, though it'll suffer through the transonic transition and usually produce garbage groups at 100 meters.
Last weekend we had a fellow with a home-built 80% AR-22 on the line. It was choking miserably on Golden Bullet, but its problems didn't seem to be ammo-related -- double-feeds, denting cartridges in the top of the magazine, etc. We thought we'd have to deadline it. Gave him some of my old Blazer and he was 100%, finished the class without a single additional hiccough. ^:)^
The main reason I recommend spending an extra 2-3 cents/round is the number of rounds we shoot at Appleseed, often without an opportunity for cleaning. I loaned one of my 10/22s to a couple of people shooting a green and yellow box of ammo last summer, and it shot so dirty that a couple of 10-round mags stopped feeding. Misfires are my other peeve with AutoMatch, depending on the batch (frustrating at my first Appleseed last year, during the AQT!).
If you check wikiarms right now, you can get CCI standard velocity for 9 cents/round, and it's worth it over some of the cheaper options. YMMV, of course, and I have no affiliation with CCI other than being a repeat customer many times over ::). Right now I'm shooting through a case of Minimag because I got tired of paying shipping for each brick.
Our Sportsmen's club had an open house last week. We ran a brick of CCI through my 10/22 takedown with ease. When we switched to some Thunderbolt, that had been donated, the rifle bore needed cleaned after about 100 rounds. The crew working the station got a bore snake stuck in it. Once I got it home for a proper teardown and cleaning the amount of grit under the bolt and in the trigger group was amazing.
Mike
My experience is similar:
First started AS events with Remington Golden Bullet and moving to Aguila. By the end of Day 1, my rifles were absolutely NASTY. And malfunctioning like crazy.
Next AS, moved from Aguila on Day 1, cleaned the rifle, and then moved to CCI Blazer on Day 2. Instances of malfunctions plummeted.
These days, I run CCI Blazer if I have it, or CCI SV. Both have proven to be effective at keeping the rifle running all weekend. For my 15/22 platforms, I run the CCI AR Tactical (which I believe is super similar to CCI mini mag). Again, no ammo related malfunctions, with over 2500 rounds expended.
I purchase per case, as I don't like getting needled by per brick shipping.
At the end of the day, you want to sight and shoot the same ammo to help assure consistency. If you are going to use substandard ammo, that's fine; just know that you'll have to clean your rifle much more often (upwards of twice a day?). Otherwise, switching ammo just adds one more variable to the complex equation of repeatability.
CCI Blazer is my go to ammo.
Relatively clean and plenty accurate. Works well in most rifles.
2cl
Blazer and SV work fine most of the time.
But after repeated failures of SV in the match chambers of my pistols, I spend some time measuring and examining quantities of it. Diameterwise, SV is good to go. Length on the other hand is a problem. I will post below the measurements that I took from samples of numerous 22 ammunition. If you have a tight chamber, you should pay attention to the results.
Several of the team that I shoot with use the same pistol. To successfully use CCI SV with it, we must run the ammo through a sizing die to shorten the OAL at the bullet end. At 25 yards and 50 feet this makes no accuracy difference. But it improves reliability dramatically.
Here are the results of a sample of 5 rounds from each type from multiple boxes.
CCI Std paper box
.980
.980
.986
.985
.986
Eley Club
.974
.9745
.974
.975
.976
Federal 711 this is white box and not 711b
.980
.981
.982
.978
.979
SK Std Plus
.978
.980
.980
.978
.980
Norma TAC Match (RWS)
.964
.965
.967
.965
.966
And the surprise of the night, 1995 Remington White Box from CMP
.979
.981
.978
.979
.977
I found that the ammo over .983 didn't fit in my mags or would tend to stick. The mags were freshly cleaned by the way.
Saying all of that my go to ammo of choice when I have a tight chamber or magazine is Norma Tac which is made by RWS (has the RWS headstamp). Finally, if the ammo is sticking in the mags, it is too long. If you encounter that issue, clean the mags with solvent, let the dry, relube them and try again.
Quote from: Kennebago on September 14, 2016, 11:45:57 PM
I shoot the cheapest stuff I can find in my 10/22 and I am still the limiting factor in that combination on AQTs. My CZ gets all of the decent ammo.
Which CZ are you using?
At the "seed" in Volga, IA last weekend my 512 was working well until about 4:00PM then the bolt froze up and needed to be nudged forward until it would spring closed properly. I swapped out to my back-up and only missed out on stage one of a practice AQT. I did a tear-down and clean upon that night. It appeared that the hammer was pushing vertically on the bolt assembly causing it to not spring closed. After getting home on Monday I did another tear-down and found that the firing pin retainer (rolled spring pin) had slid out into the recoil spring cavity (maybe 1/64 inch) causing one of the springs to stay compressed. After reseating the roll pin the bolt assembly works like new.
Mike
452 Varmint. Unfortunately, I am one of those people.
I have 2 Marlin 795's and a Ruger 10/22 with thousands of rounds through them. I pretty much don't even bother with anything not CCI anymore (unless I don't have a choice), though I have some wolf ammo I also like. CCI seems to have the best combination of price/accuracy and reliability to be found. The SVs will shoot a ragged hole out of the old and very well worn Ruger at 25m, but I find the extra velocity of mini-mags cycles the Marlins more reliably and burns cleaner than many other brands. I also prefer the round nose to the hollow points in the Marlin's because they are finicky feeders. With most any other ammo, the Marlin's will at least need the feed ramps cleaned after 100 rounds, but will cycle considerably more CCI rounds before having issues.
I agree that different rifles will shoot some ammo better than others. I am learning which ammo my rifles reliably shoot and which ammo tends to cause problems.
Right now I have been able to get Federal Auto Match at the local Cabela's for $22 a box. That works out to 7 cents a round. Most rifles seem to shoot it well. It is interesting to note that currently it is less expensive per round than Remington Golden Bullet or Thunderbolt.
With the Auto Match I will have an occasional failure to fire in the rifle I shoot most often. I will talk more on this later. The Auto Match seems to run pretty well in all of my .22 rifles. The Auto Match will put 10 rounds into a 1 inch square at 25 meters from prone with a sling. It ranks high on my list for use at the next Appleseed I will attend.
It also seems the more the ammo costs, the better it runs in that rifle.
Many are of the opinion that Eley is the best .22 ammo on the market. I think a box of 50 rounds of Eley Tenex costs over $20. For me that is too much to pay. However I have some Eley Target that I was able to get for $8 a box. If it runs well I may use that at the next Appleseed.
I have put some CCI SV through it but I am not sure if it "likes" the CCI ammo yet.
More on my issue with failure to fire. My go to rifle is a KIDD rifle that I assembled a couple months ago. From what I understand the barrel has a modified match chamber although I can use CCI Stingers in it. That rifle barrel has a 1/2 inch 5 shot at 50 yard guarantee. I have noted that this rifle need to have the chamber cleaned more often. Not the whole barrel, just the chamber. This seems to eliminate the issue I have with failure to fire until it needs another cleaning.
I want to share another thought about problems when on the line shooting an AQT stage. I know at some point I will have an issue with my rifle not properly firing a round when I am on the line. I also know that at this point in my shooting I can keep track of the number of rounds my rifle has fired. I am practicing the use of a panic magazine. Actually, it is an anti panic magazine. When I am practicing shooting the AQT I keep an extra magazine in my pocket or next to me. This magazine is loaded with 10 rounds at all times. When I have an issue, I eject the troublesome round and at the end of the course of fire I insert my panic magazine and finish the number of shots, usually one or two, that gave me trouble. This should allow me to finish a stage without firing less than 10 shots on the stage.
The only exception to this would be for a squib round which is covered in the safety briefing. I would of course cease fire and ask for help at the end of the stage.
I am by no means an expert and am not affiliated with any of the companies mentioned. I have just used their products. I hope my thoughts help in some way.
Good shooting. Be safe and have fun.
Match chambers are tight and will need cleaning. Even then I have seen people eject a loaded round and have the bullet remain in the barrel.
To clean a match chamber, get a .25 caliber bronze brush, bend it into an L shape with the business end being the short leg. The length of the short leg should be just a little longer than a fired .22 casing.
To do the cleaning, insert the short end of the brush into the chamber and use an up and down motion to loosen fouling. Then run a dry patch (or a wet one for that matter) through the barrel from breach to muzzle using a pull through (I like the patchworm brand).
I made my own chamber cleaner from a .243 brush. Threaded it onto a small piece of brass tube. Since the threading wasn't tight I wrapped some gaff tape around it for more security.
Works well.
I pull a few patches through just as described.
Tried most of them. Remington golden bullets are surprisingly accurate but have about a 1% Failure (dud) rate so unsuitable for AQT's. Fed Automatch has been terrible (8moa) in my 597 & 10/22. CCI SV = great in 10/22's and most everything else but sometimes short cycles my Remington 597HB. CCI Blazer is what I first shot a rifleman score with. Best value bulk ammo, IMO. Been 100% reliable in my Rem 597's. CCI mini-mags also 100% reliable and fairly accurate. My overall favorite though is Geco target for semi-autos. Great value ammo. 100% reliable and very accurate in every rifle I've tried it in. Have shot a 247 AQT with a stock Rem 597HB and 585 Rimfire Sporter with it in the same rifle and a 581 in a home built AR-22 with Tacom barrel. Can shoot consistent < .5" groups @ 25M prone, and it can be found online for $0.09/round. "Flyers" are .5" misses and they're rare. Only ammo I'll shoot over it for competition is lapua rifle match (short strokes the 597 and only used in the 10/22) which costs twice as much with only slightly more accuracy.
Quote from: jmdavis on September 15, 2016, 11:41:55 AM
Saying all of that my go to ammo of choice when I have a tight chamber or magazine is Norma Tac which is made by RWS (has the RWS headstamp). Finally, if the ammo is sticking in the mags, it is too long. If you encounter that issue, clean the mags with solvent, let the dry, relube them and try again.
I keep some Norma-Tac around for marginally feeding rifles too. However, be warned -- I've seen it start keyholing after under 100 rounds, in a couple of different student rifles. Lubricant build-up in the bore was to blame, and a single pass of a bore snake cured it.
Each .22 rifle is a mystery unto itself. Even amongst the same model rifles from the same manufacturer. Test the ammo in YOUR rifle. Sometimes the cheap stuff works fine. Sometimes it doesn't.
I do try to avoid the dirty powder ammo due to the number of rounds in a typical Appleseed. And, I recommend cleaning .22 rifles at the end of each day when in Appleseeds. This avoids a myriad of problems, including OOBDs, failure to extract, failure to eject, stovepipes, dented bullet noses, bent rounds, and similar. The groups get a little bigger if you clean, but the semi-auto action runs better. If your rifle can run reliably with it, the 40 gr LRN subsonic with soft bullet lube will often be found to group the best, especially in bolt guns.
I have seen Federal Automatch generate fliers at a rate of 1-2 rounds per each 10, when temperatures get above about 95 degrees F. Also, a failure to cycle when temperatures get much below 45 degrees F.
I have seen CCI Standard generate stovepipes in some rifles and fix stovepipe problems in other rifles. I have seen CCI mini mags run fine in some rifles, and hang up on chambering in other rifles.
That all being said, my personal 10-22 seems to prefer 40 gr Norma Tac-22. In my loaner 10-22, it runs best with Federal 40 gr RN and detests the Norma. My Marlin 25 bolt gun likes Thunderbolts, and Remington Golden bullets.
The 40 gr Norma Tac-22 will group in about 0.4" to 0.5" for 10 rounds shot in prone with a sling. The loaner 10-22 does about 0.9" for 10 round groups. The bolt gun does about 1 inch groups. I had a Marlin Model 60 that would throw a flier for the first shot of any group fired more than about 10 seconds after the last round fired, and first flier was 6 MOA offset randomly. It was not a lead ring in the chamber, either. It just shot that way. I sold it. Great minute of squirrel gun. Bad Appleseed gun. At Rifleman's cadence, after throwing the flyer away, all 9 shots would be touching. It was my first .22 rifle I ever bought. Had the old 18 round tubular magazine, before the NJ compliant Model 60 rifles came out with fewer round capacities.
Get what .22 ammo you can, regardless of how cheap, and test it. No reason to feed filet mignon if spam grade ammo runs fine. No need for Eley Match for Appleseed use, either
But, be sure to buy enough such that all is from the same lot batch, especially for Federal Automatch. Otherwise, lot to lot code variations will move your POI by about 5-6 MOA.
And, do not change brands even if you stay with all 40 gr, 36 gr, or whatever. POI variations amongst different brands of .22 LR can be as much as 7-9 MOA different.
-gb
As mentioned, each rifle is different. The most accurate I've tried out of my 10/22 was the federal champion #510 but it would stove pipe once in a while, most of the time during a timed firing. CCI Blazer is my favorite. Plenty accurate at 25 and 50 yards and cycles the rifle every time.
I went to my first Appleseed with some bulk .22 LR ammo and a Ruger 10/22. I suffered from a few duds and stove pipe malfunctions. I then tried some Federal Lightning and had no more problems.
I went to an Appleseed over the weekend and used the CCI AR-22 stuff and had great groups and no failures. I was shooting a CMMG .22 LR upper. I did have a small piece of the forward assist part in my bolt break off when I tried some CCI Stingers. I am not sure if the Stinger had anything to do with it. The forward assist is not needed and I have the gun functioning again.
One thing I do think that matters to the .22 LR is the quality of the barrel and the rifling rate. I think the sweet spot for most ammo is 1 in 16". I tried both the CCI Velocitors in an AR-15 with the CMMG bolt insert and a Umarex Colt .22 M4. I had much better groups with the Umarex. The AR-15 had a 1 in 9" rifle rate while the Umarex had a 1 in 16" twist.
I shot my first rifleman score years ago using federal automatch on a stock 10/22, then a month after that shot another one with CCI SV. Lately I've been shooting armscore that was on sale from Palmetto I think, it shoots ok but dirties up my rifle big time. I started to get FTEs all over the place after shooting about 200 rds of armscore through it I sidelined the rifle to clean it up. Last weekend I took it apart completely and was amazed at the amount of buildup (I was literally scraping it out with the tip of a screwdriver). I never had anywhere near that type of buildup in my receiver with automatch or CCI SV. Unfortunately my stock of automatch and CCI SV is low so I just use what I can get my hands on.
Quote from: Mutant Texan on October 24, 2016, 09:02:18 PM
One thing I do think that matters to the .22 LR is the quality of the barrel and the rifling rate. I think the sweet spot for most ammo is 1 in 16". I tried both the CCI Velocitors in an AR-15 with the CMMG bolt insert and a Umarex Colt .22 M4. I had much better groups with the Umarex. The AR-15 had a 1 in 9" rifle rate while the Umarex had a 1 in 16" twist.
The bore of a .22lr is .221 the bore of centerfire .22 is .224 so a LR bullet will be like a loose ball bouncing down the bore of a Brown Bess.
A couple years ago a future instructor was struggling to hold 6 MOA with his bolt insert in a 5.56 upper. His form looked great. Had the instructor working with him stumped then it hit him at the debrief that night. Insert one loaned 10/22, extract a rifleman score and a new orange hat.
Quote from: Charles McKinley on October 30, 2016, 08:44:31 PM
Quote from: Mutant Texan on October 24, 2016, 09:02:18 PM
One thing I do think that matters to the .22 LR is the quality of the barrel and the rifling rate. I think the sweet spot for most ammo is 1 in 16". I tried both the CCI Velocitors in an AR-15 with the CMMG bolt insert and a Umarex Colt .22 M4. I had much better groups with the Umarex. The AR-15 had a 1 in 9" rifle rate while the Umarex had a 1 in 16" twist.
The bore of a .22lr is .221 the bore of centerfire .22 is .224 so a LR bullet will be like a loose ball bouncing down the bore of a Brown Bess.
To add to bore size, it is best to use a heavier bullet in a fast twist rate barrel. Aguilla SSS is a 60grain projectile and barrels for such are a 1:9