I am working on my trigger follow through and I have run into a problem in the prone position with an AR10. My old habits are to fully release the trigger as soon as the shot breaks but what I was told at an Appleseed was to hold the trigger back and then slowly ease it forward until it resets. I am slowly getting better at doing this with my 10/22 but when I switch to the AR10 I am occasionally getting a double. It feels to me like a "bump-fire", the AR10 passes the rudimentary trigger function tests and has never given me a problem until I started this follow through work. The 10/22 where I have no problems has a Kidd 2-stage trigger that is very light, the AR10 has a Geissele 2-stage SSA trigger that has a heaver break. Pulling the rifle really tight into my shoulder seems to lessen the chances of this happening but I am using a lot of muscle in my trigger arm to accomplish this. I am certain that there is something else wrong with either my technique or position that is causing this.
It's always hard to diagnose on the interwebz, but the symptoms you describe are consistent with a sling that is too loose. Your trigger hand will not need to pull the rifle into your shoulder if the sling is tight enough - the sling should do that job. It makes sense that if your hand is constantly pulling, so are the fingers, so if the rifle isn't firmly enough planted in your shoulder, you'll get a bump-fire.
With proper sling tension and a relaxed body pushing the rifle butt against the sling, you should be able to remove your trigger hand from the rifle and nothing moves.
I recommend that you go through this article: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47519.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47519.0) and compare them to your current position.
I had that article printed out and was referring to it yesterday as I shot. Some good stuff there. I know I am suffering from the lack of a hand stop for my support hand, I will try a tighter sling on my next outing to see if that helps. I was over-tightening my sling and picking up some cant in the gun so verifying that the support hand/sling holds the rifle tight and straight into my shoulder without the trigger hand is one of my checks now but I may have over-corrected. I am headed to the KD in Ramsuer this weekend so I can get some hands on help there. Doubles are embarrassing, a waste of a perfectly good bullet, and possibly dangerous.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but if "riding the reset" is not working for you, don't do it. It's "better" and probably "faster" if you can, but if you can execute a smooth trigger pull without riding the reset then just put the issue out of your head. There are a lot of different ways to put your finger on the trigger and a lot of different ways to pull the trigger that work.
There are some aspects of shooting where "wrong is wrong" and "right is right". NPA being a good example. You'll simply never shoot to your potential until you master NPA. As long as you can pull the trigger smoothly without disturbing the sights, I don't think it matters a great deal how you do it. Riding the trigger reset is one good way to do that, but it's not the only way.
Honestly, I have no idea how I pull the trigger in a rapid fire stage. Other instructors who have watched me shoot tell me I'm not "slowly easing the trigger forward until it resets." I'm sure they are right, but I don't give it any thought, and I certainly don't worry about it. When the sights are where they need to be, the rifle goes off. Tens of thousands of repetitions have programmed my subconscious to make the rifle go bang when the sights are where they need to be with no conscious effort or thought.
The reason you're experiencing a "bump fire" with the AR-10 that you're not getting with the 10/22 is simply recoil. The 10/22 doesn't recoil for all practical purposes, and your trigger reset proceeds without issue. With the AR-10, the initial recoil impulse pushes you backwards, then just as your weight shifts back forward your finger is hitting the reset. The forward motion of your body returning to position after recoil is causing you to occasionally pull through the trigger again. So the best answer is to slightly retrain your shot process to hold the trigger to the rear until the recoil impulse has dissipated, then reset the trigger and fire your next shot. After all, the sights won't be back on the target until recoil has finished anyway. But if you find another method that works for you, I wouldn't get hung up on it.
As for the sling, a good rule of thumb for me is this. If the sling is cutting off circulation to my hand and my hand starts tingling or going numb after 5 or 10 minutes in the sling, it's a little too tight. I'll back off one notch on my Turner style sling, which is one inch if you're using a web sling. If I feel so comfortable I could fall asleep, it's probably too loose. It should be uncomfortable, but it should not hurt.
I would also (humbly) suggest that you observe your sights more intently and focus on pressing the trigger straight to the rear as you let the shot occur, as you may be anticipating the shot or getting twitchy on the trigger without realizing it.
I have bumpfired my M1 as you are describing a couple of times and it was because I was mentally bailing on the shot. Although M1 triggers are not AR triggers, with even, continuous pressure your finger should be more than enough to pin the trigger to the rear while the rifle recoils.
Your trigger press should be an inevitable, ever-building pressure on the trigger that does not let up until you observe the sights rise and then fall all the way back down on target.
If you are letting your finger out to reset before the rifle has fully settled back down, you are probably not observing the front sight's full arc would be my guess. Press the trigger in a continuous way as you focus exclusively on what your sights do, and worry about reset only after the sight stops moving.
Definitely a zen thing.
Front Sight Focus, another of my many deficiencies that I was working on yesterday, I sometimes wonder if I do anything right. After reading FiremanBob's article I realized that I had often been looking through the top of my BiFocals at the sights so I was trying a more erect head position. One good thing did come from that. I had been using the AR15 nose on the charging handle as an anchor and that .308 had been telling me that was not a good thing. For some reason after I got my head more erect it seemed to move more with the rifle during recoil without trying to put a dent in my nose. My sight and trigger process that I think I am doing (my goal) is:
Check NPA
Breath in
Breath out, as sight comes up to target hold breath.
As long as sight is on the fuzzy blob downrange increase trigger pressure until it breaks.
After recoil breath in and reset trigger.
Its hard to self diagnose whether I am trying to rush the trigger pull, maybe this weekend I will be able to get one of the instructors to do a Ball and Dummy round with me.
If you have a few snap caps. You can load you mag without looking , or have a buddy do it and Ball and dummy yourself.
Great idea Cable Guy, I reload so I can set up 4 or 5 rounds with a busted primer, no powder and a bullet. Then mix them in with enough live rounds to fill the mag, throw a towel over them so I can't see and load the mag by feel.
Nightfisher, it's still a good idea to practice B&D with a partner as a coach. The coach isn't so laser focused on the target and front sight, and will pick up movements that you won't notice. If you are trying to observe yourself, your attention is divided and you may not shoot your best. Objectivity is also increased - we tend to tell ourselves we're doing better than we actually did.
A coach, yea..... Most of the coaching I get is "if you put this gizmo on the gun you will shoot better" or "Don't they make scopes for that rifle?", or "Get a LeadSled and you can really get your group size down".
Sounds like your friends need to do an Appleseed.
One of my rifles will double if I very very slowly pull the trigger with the slightest increasing pressure.
But if I pull the trigger and trap it back it behaves normally.
Solutions:
1. pull the trigger more firmly.
2. swap trigger groups to see if the pin geometry is more favorable with a different trigger.
3. Buy the trigger finger upgrade from your surgeon.
#3 sounds pricey. Can I get a discount if I bundle it with an owl's-eye vision upgrade?
Eaglescouter, you may be onto something with #1. That 10/22 may have spoiled me with that light trigger, I think its down around 2.5 lbs. When I went back to the AR I was surprised how heavy that 4.5 lb trigger seemed. I may be applying pressure like I did on the 10/22 and not getting the trigger pinned back before the recoil hits. Sounds like I need some dry fire time on that AR.
FiremanBob, didn't say they were friends, just random advice that comes my way at the range. I don't think those guys would come to an AS to learn, they like to teach too much. My plan is to drain you guys dry with my noob questions.
Trigger pull can be fast or slow, but it must be steady, straight and preferably uninterupted. What you are doing is releasing after the shot to just short of complete reset, then the slightest pressure is sending the next shot. When you release feel the click of the reset and the STOP, apply no more pressure until you are in your aiming area with good sight picture and focused on the front sight. You likely just need to work on your trigger control some more. B&D will not help with it. You need some bulk ammo and to load 2 mags with 2 and 3. You can then work on trigger control while practicing mag changes and keep your NPA. But focus on the trigger control until it is mastered.
Grip exercises may help, but don't worry about what you are doing wrong. Figure out what you need to do right and then repeat that.
Let it reset, feel it reset and then start the next cycle.
Speaking of mag changes.... How do you guys shooting AR's do that without disturbing your NPA? Dropping and replacing the mag has not been too much trouble but I have not figured out a good way to release the bolt. I miss my M1A.
Quote from: NightFisher on May 11, 2016, 02:21:35 PM
Speaking of mag changes.... How do you guys shooting AR's do that without disturbing your NPA? Dropping and replacing the mag has not been too much trouble but I have not figured out a good way to release the bolt. I miss my M1A.
Load two round magazine.
Take one shot.
How many rounds remain in the magazine????
Change magazines and continue course of fire.
No reason to need to release the bolt after the mag change.
Or get a BAD lever (battery assist device) so you can close bolt with trigger finger.
Agreed with a lot that has been stated. I have seen this happen ALOT, the preverbial double tap!
OK, it does take practice, consciously force yourself to hold trigger back for a 2-3 second count. Letting out to the reset is your choice, but surely recommended.
My experience, at the CMP Games last week with my "modern military AR15" with an as issued/out of the box awfully strong trigger. Standing it did affect my scores. In rapid fire I did a LOT better, because of that "easing out to reset", I did not have to deal with the first gritty stage. So, there is a benefit to learning how to let out to the reset. With my SVC rifle, and my AR10, they both have expensive Gieselle triggers in them. Tough to learn this with a very good trigger, but it still can be accomplished.
Ball/Dummy may help, but..., consciously forcing yourself to hold it back for a 3 second count, should cure the issue.
Best of luck!
R/
Chris
As JMDavis, and maybe Aggrivere mentioned, GRIP is a big deal as well. I'll touch on that, I have been gripping my rifles like a "wuss"! No other way to explain that. Sling is tight, position is good, grip looked good, but was weak. Took a female distinguished rifleman (Thanks JMDavis....cause he asked me to get with her on my grip), to realize I was way too light on the grip. I had been gripping it like I was shaking a toddlers hand. When Denise asked me to grip her hand....there were a few laughs, and then she showed me. IT is a FIRM/Tight hold. Now the why..., it was explained to me that especially in rapid fire, to get the sights back to where they need to be (NPOA), I need to be gripping the grip tight.
This changed everything (well....with my hand at least).....my trigger finger. I had been cutting the first digit of my trigger finger, and making a 90 degree bend (sort of unnatural), some very good shooters, Denise, owner of Keystone Accuracy and Alex (JM Davis and Aggriver know of whom I speak), said, let the trigger finger fall on the trigger naturally, so that one does not disturb the sights during the squeeze. It all made sense, and I proved it on the 300 rapid fire line with one string being a 98-3X, a personal best.
SO...., don't be afraid to try different things. Now I am using the joint between my first and second digit of the trigger finger with a firm grip. Seems to be helping.
R/
Chris
Thanks EagleScouter. My son says I can't count since I keep forgetting to put that 4th round in the last target on Stage 3 of the ATQ but I think I can manage to count to one. :-X
You are going to break cheek weld and thus NPA during the reload. What you WILL NOT allow yourself to do is move your support elbow.
Depending on the height of your rapid prone position, you may be able to drop the Mag without turning the rifle or removing it from your shoulder, but you will have to take your trigger hand and insert the new magazine regardless of whether you execute a hot reload or not.
But the key is to keep your support elbow in position. Then you look the rifle back into your shoulder, set your head position on the stock, quickly confirm your npa and then start firing again. 65 seconds is ALOT of time.
Mike
I had a similar problem when I started shooting High Power. Trigger in that rifle is a Geissele two stage that is set to 3.5lb first stage and 1.5lb second stage. Had a few bump fires including a couple in competition. Embarrassing, dangerous, and threw away 10 points. None of it good.
Figured out what was happening.
I wasn't hanging on to the rifle. Meaning I wasn't applying enough pressure to the trigger after the shot had gone off. Follow through issue. All it took was to relax the trigger finger a little, the trigger would reset, recoil would send a second round downrange.
It all happens quickly but the sequence goes like this. Squeeze the first stage till I hit the 'bump'. When the shot is ready to be sent squeeze some more. Bang. Keep adding pressure through the recoil sequence. Once the sights come back down, inhale, exhale. Slowly release pressure on the trigger till it resets. Slowly add pressure. Bang. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Trigger control is learned through practice and dryfire.
The Geissle takes up most of the weight on the first stage and then releases. It is easy for people who don't have good trigger control or who are excited to take up the break the shot, and release to not a full reset. You will then find the rifle firing again before you are ready. Feel the reset, it should feel the same.
Some years ago VAShooter and I travelled to teach KD at a bootcamp in Osage MO. In the car for the trip were rifles, pistols, airguns and an Olympic Freepistol (a Hammerli 105). The free pistol has a trigger weight of less than 4 oz. After demonstrating that it was possible to bounce one's finger off the trigger it was passed around to the students. It didn't matter whether they were Senior Instructors or new riflemen, they all tripped the trigger when they touched it (not pressed it, but touched it). That was a lesson. Trigger control takes practice.
I thought that my trigger control was good until I started shooting Bullseye. And to be honest it may have been good for a Rifle shooter. But the pistol requires far better trigger control if you are to hit the X-Ring than a rifle. Bad trigger control with a rifle in prone is a wide 10 or a close 9, with a pistol it is a 7 or 6 or 5. And even when you master it, you still have to practice it for it to work. Any guesses on what improving trigger control with the pistol does for rifle shooting?
Mike
Problem seems to be solved. I was slooooooowwwwly pulling the trigger and then trying to followthru. When I sped up the process a bit my doubles went away and right now I am holding it back as I breath in and resetting the trigger as I breath out. We did some B&D drills this weekend and neither I or my coach saw any flinch that translated into movement of the rifle when the trigger was pulled.
Step #6 of firing the shot: Follow Through
There are two things that MUST be done as soon as the rifle fires.
First, take a mental snap shot of your sight picture. This is called 'calling your shot'.
Next, hold the trigger back. Keep applying pressure to the trigger.
On a .22 rifle, hold the trigger back long enough to say "follow through".
On a center fire rifle, ride out the recoil with the trigger trapped to the rear.
As you come out of recoil, slowly release pressure on the trigger. You will feel & hear the trigger reset.
Doubling from a center fire rifle typically happens when the shooter has been lax in their fundamentals with a .22; this failure to train the body to continue applying pressure to the trigger is coming 'round to bite you when you step up to a center fire rifle.
That said, if your rifle is firing on the reset, after recoil has dissipated, then you have a geometry issue with your trigger, and it should be repaired by a competent gunsmith.
There is a point where the trigger is neither unset nor completely reset. It is possible to find oneself at that point and when you do a double may occur. This is particularly true with some single stage rack grade triggers. But it can also happen with well tuned triggers. Let it reset completely, you will learn to feel it and know when it is correct. Then you start applying pressure for the next shot, while insuring good sight alignment and sight picture.
If you do it enough it will become subconscious and you will not think about any individual step, though you should have indicators for when there is a problem.