Has anybody shot or FIRST HAND observed someone shoot a Rifleman Score with the SW Mp15-22 (.22LR)?
I have seen many come across the lines through the years, but have seen no one score with it.
That includes me as well.
yes my son did about 3 weeks ago he has a m&p 15-22 PC
Yes and no.
I've seen four people from the same family score with the M&P BUT they don't use a GI sling and the sling they use is NOT snug.
Everyone else using a GI sling, snug not tight, COULD NOT get consistent groupings. Even when I asked other instructors to shoot the students rifle trying to diagnose the problem, they COULD NOT get consistent groupings.
DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in this presentation are those of the author, based on twenty observations, and do not necessarily represent official policy or position of Appleseed. Statements of fact and opinions expressed are those of the participants individually and, unless expressly stated to the contrary, are not the opinion or position of the author. The Society of Curmudgeons does not endorse or approve, and assumes no responsibility for, the content, accuracy or completeness of the information presented.
Quote from: Engineer shooting on April 30, 2016, 04:01:21 PM
Yes and no.
I've seen four people from the same family score with the M&P BUT they don't use a GI sling and the sling they use is NOT snug.
Everyone else using a GI sling, snug not tight, COULD NOT get consistent groupings. Even when I asked other instructors to shoot the students rifle trying to diagnose the problem, they COULD NOT get consistent groupings.
DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in this presentation are those of the author, based on twenty observations, and do not necessarily represent official policy or position of Appleseed. Statements of fact and opinions expressed are those of the participants individually and, unless expressly stated to the contrary, are not the opinion or position of the author. The Society of Curmudgeons does not endorse or approve, and assumes no responsibility for, the content, accuracy or completeness of the information presented.
That would be what I have experienced as well using the USGI sling. I suspect it has something to do with the flex of the barrel/receiver/ handguard.
Quote from: little buddy on April 30, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
yes my son did about 3 weeks ago he has a m&p 15-22 PC
How does the Performance Center version differ from the regular?
I shot my first Appleseed last fall, with a standard M&P 15-22. I have a small scope and used a borrowed canvas web sling (from the instructor). After a couple of warm-ups and a lot of instruction, I scored a 211, followed by a 219 the following day.
I didn't have any real rifle experience, mostly pistol, and hadn't shot a rifle in over 35 years. I probably didn't have too many bad habits to unlearn, so it may have been easier that way.
I think the information is correct but verify for your self it has 2-stage match trigger heavier fluted barrel 18 inch match grade precision chambered Hogue rubber over-moulded pistol grip and Vltor stock. Also comes with identical iron sights? I think that come on the stock AR 223- 5.56? and the muzzle is threaded but no flash hider, instead a protector but you can put a flash hider on it of your choice? our son shot riflemen with it. I don't know how well the stock m&p15/22 shoot but the PC we are happy with there are also small upgrades but they are not worth talking about check for your self to verify all of this info is correct.?
yes, I have shot rifleman (above 210) many times on a Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 with a scope and once with iron.
Not a PC. I am slinging up snug or tight.
My highest score with the M&P15- 22 is 235 (2x).
Mine will shoot 1.40 MOA with Lapua Subsonic, 6.75 MOA with Federal Champion 40gr. solid 510 and everything else is in between. It is an average 3-4 MOA rifle but has great ergonomics
I removed the front plastic piece at the end of the fore grip. It pops in and out easily. I do not know if this makes a difference.
I prefer the CZ 512 which will give me 1.04 MOA with Lapua SK standard Plus.
Opinions only my own... disclaimer, disclaimer.
Quote from: DEH on April 30, 2016, 12:53:48 PM
Has anybody shot or FIRST HAND observed someone shoot a Rifleman Score with the SW Mp15-22 (.22LR)?
Seriously?? ???
Yes. Many times. I have done it many times myself with my own rifle, an have seen other shooters with other rifles do it many times as well.
My family has three standard 15/22s.
I had heard that a tight sling could distort the barrel so I experimented with all three rifles using the squares target at 25 yards. All three rifles have the same type scope. Ten rounds in each of the five squares.
I shot prone without a sling, a loose sling, a moderately snug sling and the normal "Appleseed tight sling".
Without a doubt I was getting barrel distortion.
Did not matter which rifle...The no sling and loose sling shot the best groups. The groups opened a little bit with the moderately snug sling.
With the Appleseed tight sling the groups opened up quite a bit and were not too consistent. I'm not sure I would be able to shoot a rifleman score with an "Appleseed tight sling".
It did not matter which rifle I shot in what order. The results were the same.
All the same ammo from the same lot, same day, etc...
Quote from: Jason S on April 30, 2016, 06:49:51 PM
I removed the front plastic piece at the end of the fore grip. It pops in and out easily. I do not know if this makes a difference.
Quote from: hogfamily on April 30, 2016, 09:58:08 PM
Without a doubt I was getting barrel distortion.
So it looks like popping out the front piece will free float the barrel so that the sling tension does not cause distortion.
I have also shot below rifleman many times with the MP15-22.
There appears to be some new information here that could help in an MP15-22 shooter get better with a less than snug sling as prescribed in our teaching.
Quote from: Jason S on May 01, 2016, 02:48:12 AM
Quote from: Jason S on April 30, 2016, 06:49:51 PM
I removed the front plastic piece at the end of the fore grip. It pops in and out easily. I do not know if this makes a difference.
Quote from: hogfamily on April 30, 2016, 09:58:08 PM
Without a doubt I was getting barrel distortion.
So it looks like popping out the front piece will free float the barrel so that the sling tension does not cause distortion.
I have also shot below rifleman many times with the MP15-22.
Jason S, can you do a test with and without the 'plastic piece' installed on the forend? A couple groups each way should tell a lot.
I've not fired one personally, but I've seen many used and some to make RM. The MP15-22 seems to be more reliable throughout the course of a weekend compared to many other AR based rimfire rifles. And 22 conversions.
A good thread and I have learned some things to try with the MP .22; however, I am still going to relegate it to the backburner for appleseed since I went and bought a 10/22.
I will agree with the reliability.
The only failures that I recall with our 15/22s and most, if not all, of the ones I have seen at Appleseeds have been due to ammo.
You really need to be careful inserting a chamber flag and do not close the bolt on one or the extractor might depart the rifle. I have seen that happen a few times.
We have been using a zip tie with a bright foam ear plug as chamber flags on 15/22s and have not knocked out an extractor with that set up even when a bolt gets shut on it.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/hogfamilyak/Appleseed%20Stuff/002%20Medium_zpszranbqud.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/hogfamilyak/media/Appleseed%20Stuff/002%20Medium_zpszranbqud.jpg.html)
I will try removing the plastic piece and see what happens. O0
Today I witnessed a 14-year old student make a 218 on the AQT with an M&P15-22.
Quote from: FiremanBob on May 01, 2016, 10:00:30 PM
Today I witnessed a 14-year old student make a 218 on the AQT with an M&P15-22.
With a GI sling.
I've seen a number of folks make RM, but was it a significant struggle with a snug sling? That's the question to me.
A couple groups on a squares target with and without sling pressure will give us all the needful info. Group size and displacement.
Quote from: TOMINCT on May 02, 2016, 09:56:20 AM
I've seen a number of folks make RM, but was it a significant struggle with a snug sling? That's the question to me.
A couple groups on a squares target with and without sling pressure will give us all the needful info. Group size and displacement.
Understand. Will conduct a theory-to-practice at next available AS. As it stands right now, the 15-22 in my (and FiremanBob's) example will put all 5 in the black squares under sling pressure.
A friend bought two M&P 15-22s at the same time. One had a muzzle device, the other did not. His girlfriend picked the one with the muzzle device and was in tears by the end of her first Appleseed due to lack of consistent grouping. Had it not been someone I knew personally, I might have just blown it off as typical first event frustrations.
After much trouble shooting, I finally determined the one with the muzzle device had two issues:
- the muzzle was not cut square to the bore axis, and
- a choke existed inside the barrel where the barrel was threaded.
The evidence of the first problem was noted when I removed the muzzle device and observed the "lube star" (residue) created when the lead bullets leave the muzzle (note, not as prevalent/obvious if using copper plated bullets). It was obvious that residue was heavier on one side than the other. I recut the muzzle by hand with a tool from Brownells, which uses a pilot down the bore to keep the tool straight. It was slow work, but made a difference in groups. I just put cold blue over the exposed metal and it's held up well enough. The lube star then appeared uniform.
The groups were better, but still not great. After doing a bit of research, I learned of a process called "fire lapping" that is used to remove imperfections in barrels. A grease with an abrasive is placed onto the lead bullets and then fired down the bore in a controlled manner. By "controlled manner," I mean you fire a few shots of grit impregnated bullets, clean the barrel, shoot clean ammo for groups and repeat until you achieve the desired results or the groups begin to get bigger. Essentially, you're accelerating the wear of the barrel to achieve a uniform bore. One must be very careful during this process not to go too far.
I'm not recommending anyone attempt the above process, just telling you what I did and what worked on that particular rifle. Research and understand the process before you get into it. Here's a little info to get you started: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/64 (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/64)
Even after all that work, it still wasn't a great shooter. Below are targets with results from a bench at 25 yards. Note the squares are 1 inch. Unfortunately, I don't have targets showing the groups before all the work, so you'll have to take my word for it that the below shows improvement.
This is using multiple brands/weights trying to figure out what the thing liked.
(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww225/spicket80/15-22%20Targets/IMG_0414.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/spicket80/media/15-22%20Targets/IMG_0414.jpg.html)
This is a group of 25 shots of the 36 grain Mini Mags.
(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww225/spicket80/15-22%20Targets/IMG_0415.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/spicket80/media/15-22%20Targets/IMG_0415.jpg.html)
And just to show you it isn't the dope behind the rifle, here's a group on a similar target
with a completely different, hand built rifle.(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww225/spicket80/15-22%20Targets/photo.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/spicket80/media/15-22%20Targets/photo.jpg.html)
And, yes, I pulled a shot.
So, a lot of work got a M&P 15-22 with a muzzle device to shoot decent. It still didn't match the performance of the M&P 15-22 without the muzzle device and my friend eventually traded it off. This was several years ago, shortly after the 15-22 hit the market, and I hope that Smith & Wesson has improved their quality control since then. I'm not suggesting this is a problem with all M&P 15-22s equipped with a muzzle device, I'm just saying at least one of them is not what Col. Townsend Whelen would have classified as "an interesting rifle."
I know, I know....we don't shoot from benches! I get it, but it does help to know whether the problem is you or the rifle.
QuoteJason S, can you do a test with and without the 'plastic piece' installed on the forend? A couple groups each way should tell a lot.
Okay, so I got out to the range and did some testing. Everything was shot with Lapua Standard Plus ammunition and a scope. When shooting in prone I tightened the sling more than I normally would. The sling was
tight.
I did 10 groups of 5 at 25 yards in the prone position WITH the plastic piece installed and WITHOUT it (removed). The results were surprising and unexpected. I got 3.00 MOA WITH and 3.56 MOA WITHOUT the forestock center piece.
Not sure of what to make of this, I decided to go out again the next day to confirm the results. I did 5 groups of 5 at 25 yards in prone and another set of 5/5 at 50 yards with a bench rest. The results were consistent with the previous day. 2.70 MOA WITH, 3.57 MOA WITHOUT and 2.53 MOA benchrest WITH, 2.86 MOA benchrest WITHOUT.
I have to conclude my earlier assumption
QuoteSo it looks like popping out the front piece will free float the barrel so that the sling tension does not cause distortion.
was wrong.
The Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 performed better WITH the plastic piece installed in ALL tests.The test results do support my previous conclusion that the MP15-22 is a 3-4 MOA rifle overall.
Previous testing stated that Lapua Standard Plus gave me 2.49 MOA in the MP 5-22. I got 2.53 and 2.86 this time which I consider close enough to be supportive. My best guess is that the testing results have a margin of error of around +/- 1/4 MOA.
Thanks for your time and effort in testing this out. It's the only way theory can be credited or disproved.
moved to new post: "Appleseed in denial"
Quote from: DEH on April 30, 2016, 12:53:48 PM
Has anybody shot or FIRST HAND observed someone shoot a Rifleman Score with the SW Mp15-22 (.22LR)?
I have seen many come across the lines through the years, but have seen no one score with it.
That includes me as well.
I was 2 points from rifleman on my S&W M&P 15-22. I did notice that as the day progressed, the shots opened up. I'm sure alot of that was me using muscles and fatigue etc but i switched to my AR15 using hand-load varmint rounds and cleared the redcoats the same day.
It can be done... but I'll probably use my ar15 or clean the 15-22 a few times w/ a bore snake during an event.
Jim @ La Port IN July 10, 2016 shot 210 with an MP 15/22 and got doused.
I was the SB.
2 clicks low
Had a youth shooter this weekend at Cavalier routinely shoot between 220-231 all weekend with a 15-22. Not his first AS, but it was his first Rilfeman patch.
This myth should be officially considered BUSTED.
Quote from: Monkey on August 15, 2016, 05:45:43 PM
Had a youth shooter this weekend at Cavalier routinely shoot between 220-231 all weekend with a 15-22. Not his first AS, but it was his first Rilfeman patch.
This myth should be officially considered BUSTED.
Indeed! Dominic had no issues, he was NOT held back by that rifle.