FNG here, just attended my first AppleSeed last weekend and I was amazed at how much I learned even though I have been shooting Rifles for 40 years. I got hung up in the 188-206 range on the ATQ so I didn't make RifleMan because old (bad) habits die hard so I have some homework to do. I have been reading some of the literature that was handed out and I have run across a term that I don't fully understand. In the 25M Drill and How to Fire the Shot handout they talk about Slow-Fire Cadance and Rapid-Fire Cadance with the Rapid-Fire Cadance being the method to use. What are they telling me here? A google search of the term just gives me a bunch of people trying to fire a semiauto like a machine gun.
Rapid-fire cadence: How fast can you shoot accurately?
You now know from the 6 Steps that you fire the shot at your natural respiratory pause. So by logic, the answer is that you can fire accurately as fast as you breathe normally - about 3 seconds per shot.
That is kind of what I thought but in that case I would be following the 6 steps in both Rapid and Slow fire mode and I would not expect a consistent difference in where the shots fell. What confused me was the following from the 4-Round Drill - Fast Cadence Test in the 25 Meter Drill and How to Fire the Shot:
Practice in changing mags without disturbing your group, and practice/verify firing the first shot out of each mag in 'rapid fire' mode, not 'slow fire' mode. With two mags, each with 2 rounds: load the first and fire two rounds, from prone or sitting. Reload and fire the other two rounds. Check the target. All four shots should be in the same sub-1-inch group.
If they are not, but the 2-rd drill is OK, chances are you have one or two shots "out of the group", and that these are the first rounds out of each mag. In other words, you are firing the first shots out of each mag at a slow-fire cadence, and the second at a rapid-fire cadence. You want to practice this drill, focusing on a rapid-fire shot out of each mag, until the group size is under and inch, and placement of all shots is in the group.
Cadence is what an observer sees and hears. The rifleman is focused on his sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. Do not break the shot just because you have taken a breath. Break the shot because the sights are aligned and the sight picture is good.
When you are in the supported positions you should work to be able to activate the trigger without moving the rifle. That means that you are smooth on the trigger with steady even pressure. That activation could take .5 seconds, 1 second or longer. It just has to be smooth and should be uninterrupted.
Don't focus on the cadence, focus on the process of firing a good shot. If you do that the cadence will take care of itself.
I think the drill is a way of helping to develop consistency and trust of your position and NPOA across a mag change. A good cadence is very necessary for good, consistent rapid fire shooting. In rapid fire cadence you do not have time to correct minor errors in position and hold. Any attempt to correct these minor errors may result in loss of rhythm (cadence). This attempted correction may cause a hesitation or pause in the sequence of firing a shot while the correction is being made and may result in shifting of the fired shot group. Just my $.02
If you want to clean or do very well in the rapids you will learn to forget about cadence and focus on the front sight and the shot process. I had a national champion tell me I was shooting too fast and predict where I was shooting by simply watching me. He was right. I shot well enough for a rifleman score, but once I listened to him, slowed down, and moved to a high and tight grip, I started shooting cleans with high x counts rather than 90's with low x counts. I still finished in time AND I shot BETTER.
No one cares if you finish first if you don't shoot well. If hits count, shouldn't you want the best hits you can make in the allowed time? And make no mistake, v's or X's beat 4's or 9's in every AQT or match you will shoot.
In the end the decisions yours.
Watch another national champion shoot sitting. How good is her cadence? She shot a 100-8x.
http://youtu.be/bI3CNcLDvTs
By the way the man who shot that video won the 1965 Farr trophy which is awarded to the top Service a Rifle shooter for 1000 yard competition at Camp Perry. Now over 75, he still comes to Camp Perry to shoot the Nationals every summer with his M14
Quote from: sluggo on April 27, 2016, 08:13:49 AM
I think the drill is a way of helping to develop consistency and trust of your position and NPOA across a mag change.
It is indeed, and it's an excellent way to teach new shooters to trust their position and not fuss the shot. I think most new shooters will shoot much better in rapid fire if they shoot in Rifleman's Cadence.
QuoteA good cadence is very necessary for good, consistent rapid fire shooting. In rapid fire cadence you do not have time to correct minor errors in position and hold. Any attempt to correct these minor errors may result in loss of rhythm (cadence). This attempted correction may cause a hesitation or pause in the sequence of firing a shot while the correction is being made and may result in shifting of the fired shot group. Just my $.02
This part I disagree with. Not only is a good cadence not necessary, a more experienced shooter will lose points shooting in cadence. Everyone's position will start to break down over the course of a rapid fire string. This of course happens faster with full bore rifles, and less quickly with rimfire rifles, but it happens to all of us. If you're doing everything else right, there is plenty of time to make small corrections in the middle of a rapid fire string.
The problem with a cadence in a more experienced shooter is that it invites the subconscious to over-ride what the conscious mind sees. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the sights in the wrong place in a rapid fire string, suggesting a correction is needed before I break the shot, but my subconscious mind is blazing away in cadence.
The better approach for a more experienced shooter is to re-train your subconscious mind to shoot to sight picture. When the sights are where they need to be, the shot breaks automatically. The subconscious mind knows what a good sight picture looks like, and it executes a trigger squeeze without any conscious effort. It's kind of weird when you learn how to do it, because the shots just magically happen. The conscious mind is focused on the front sight, and the rest is automatic.
Absolutely none of the best shooters I know shoot rapids in cadence. If you watch videos closely, it might look like a cadence at first, but it's not. They are making small adjustments whenever necessary, and the pause between shots isn't uniform. They are shooting to sight picture, not to a cadence.
I think I understand what you are saying, but please keep in mind that you are talking to a guy that is just now taking the training wheels off his rifle. I thought the cadence was breaking a shot on every respiratory pause but from my practice I see I will never get the all 10 rounds off on the second course of the ATQ if I do that. My normal respiratory cycle is about 5 seconds, with a pause of 1 -3 seconds added to that to break the shot it would take me 60 - 80 seconds to break 10 shots. I am finding that during that pause I can fairly comfortably recover and break 2 - 3 shots (22 Rimfire).
breath a bit faster and watch the front sight. You have control of your rate of breathing.
In a pinch you can fire more than one shot per breath, but it usually has less than good qualities. Spend some time learning just how long 60 seconds is. Go to your range and practice 10 shots on a 1 inch square. How long does it take you to put all of the shots in and around the square (say a 6 moa ) circle. Once you have that down, you then increase your speed a bit. But 9 fives will always beat 4-5's, 3-4's, 2-3's and a miss. Shoot good shots and then speed up the process.
Thanks, the range I am practicing at is not an easy place to transition from Standing to Sitting or Prone so I have been allocating 8 seconds for getting down into the prone and starting a 57 Second timer just before I load and start finding my NPA on the stage 3 string. I have found I am much more comfortable and accurate in the kneeling position than I am in the sitting position so I give my self 4 seconds to kneel and set the timer to 51 Seconds for my stage 2 string. I am pretty happy that the kneeling position is working for me since I am not planning to compete, just tying to improve my accuracy when I am hunting where sitting or prone seldom seems to be an option. My goal is to shoot at least a 42 in each stage (84 in stage 4). Right now I am in the mid to upper 40's in stage 1 and 3, low 40's in stage 2 and low 80's in stage 4. I am still struggling to slow down on that stage 4 and take advantage of all that time to check and recheck my NPA with each shift.
Good points on shooting where the sight picture is correct.
BTW our service rifle matches are a little different- for example match 3 at 200m we get 30 seconds to transition from standing alert to kneeling and fire 10 rounds on 2 targets( 5L,5R)
Holy smokes.... That's putting them downrange. is there a mag change in there as well?
Quote from: NightFisher on April 28, 2016, 11:32:21 PM
Holy smokes.... That's putting them downrange. is there a mag change in there as well?
LOL- yes!
a. Distance: 200 meters;
b. Position: Standing Alert to Sitting, Kneeling or Squatting;
c. Number of Shots: Two sighting and ten on score (from 3 x mags
2+5+5);
d. Target: 2 x Figure 11/59 spaced 4 feet (1.2 meters)
apart center to center;
e. Scoring: V, 5 and 4;
f. Type of Fire: Rapid;
g. Rate of Fire: 5 shots to be fired at each Figure 11/59 target;
h. Time Limit: 1 x 30 second exposure; and
i. HPS: 50.10V
Great thread!
The cadence taught at AS is a great place to start. It certainly helped me. I have adjusted my cadence such that I will (with a 22) take several shots on my exhale/pause. For me that was the magic bullet that got me through stage 2. But, I never teach that unless I am sure the student understands and executes NPOA well...
As mentioned above, I have learned to control my breath and I do breath slightly faster when doing stage 2 and 3. However, it is controlled and smooth breathing.
If you learn to be smooth you will soon be fast. But it takes work and practice.
One of my first High Power Matches was a leg match (also known as an Excellence in Competition or EIC match). I was squadded with Doug Armstrong out of North Carolina. For the entire match it appeared that Doug moved in slow motion, but he was always ready and shot exceptionally well. I felt like I was moving at warp speed and always a little behind. When you are smooth and prepared, things may look slow but you will always be ready and generally be ahead of the curve. You learn that by first building your precision and then working on the speed.
I attended a pistol class recently with 13 time National Champion Brian Zins. One of the firing drills that we worked on was one shot drills. As he puts it, "If you can't shoot accurately slow, you can't do it fast."
Watch the front sight, become accurate, and continue to practice and you will seem to be fast. BUT, if you start trying to shoot fast before you learn to shoot accurately you will not like the results if precision is your goal.
It's up to you. No one will make you do anything and really, no one cares what you do.
After writing the above, I received a link to the following article in an email. It is by Tiger McGee and addresses just the subject that I was talking about.
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/230690
What is the saying?
"You can't miss fast enough"
and
"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
Ok, I got it, stick with my basics, work on accuracy and speed will come naturally.
Speaking of which... When I am slung up and in almost any position the rifle tends to want to roll clockwise (bottom towards support side). I pull it back vertical with the lower three fingers of my trigger hand. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?
You know the answer. Any forced movement or support of the rifle using your muscles is not correct.
The most frequent cause of canting (what the roll is called) is having your support elbow too far outside the rifle. Then make sure the buttstock is planted in your shoulder pocket so that it is plumb, and if not, adjust the butt in your shoulder.
The sling being "tight" and not "snug" can cause that.
The term "Rifleman's Cadence" is often misunderstood, and most of that stems from Appleseed Instructors failure to teach it completely. What is often taught at Appleseed is that Rifleman's Cadence is the firing of a shot on each respiratory cycle- one breath = one shot. While this is true, it is an incomplete picture.
Rifleman's Cadence is the act of tying the Six Steps to your respiratory cycle.
Breathe In
Step 1: Sight Alignment (shouldering the rifle, head/cheek placement)
Breathe Out
Step 2: Sight Picture (aligning the sights of the rifle with your target)
Breathe In
Step 3: Respiratory Pause (the act of controlling your exhalation while the sights move towards the target, the PAUSING your breath when the sight picture is correct)
Step 4: Focus (the momentary verification of proper sight picture, while banishing all other extraneous thoughts from your mind)
Step 5: Squeeze The Trigger (apply steadily increasing pressure to the trigger)
BANG!
Breathe In
Step 6: Follow Through- hold the trigger back, taking a mental snapshot of your sight picture as the rifle went off.
You'll notice that once the rifle fires, you are on the inhalation stage of your respiratory cycle. Step #6 and Step #1 blend together, in that after the rifle goes off, you're inhaling, holding the trigger back, riding out the recoil, check (correct if necessary) your sight alignment, then begin to exhale towards your proper sight picture.
Riflemans Cadence doesn't do away with the six steps. You cannot ignore sight alignment and sight picture and hope to shoot well. Riflemans Cadence is merely the incorporation of rhythm - the rhythm of your breath cycle - to the act of firing a shot.
Break that rhythm, and your group will suffer for it. In the handouts that we provide at the Appleseed Marksmanship Clinics, the terms "Rapid Fire" is used to refer to someone who is firing at Riflemans Cadence. "Slow Fire" is used to refer to someone who is "Fussing the Shot", which is to say that they are taking an inordinate amount of time to 'perfect' their sight picture, often at the expense of not only speed, but consistency from shot to shot.
It is possible to get good groups while fussing the shot. It is EASIER to get good groups when using Rifleman's Cadence. As the handouts allude, the 'zero' of a slow fire group is often different than that of a rapid fire group, which makes consistently utilizing Rifleman's Cadence imperative.
Best explanation I have seen and it squares with the quote I was originally asking about from the handout.
Thanks to ItsanSKS for the best explanation of Rifleman's Cadence I've seen yet. That should be put directly into the next edition of the RWVA Instructor's Manual.