G'day folks,
Everything, including Project Appleseed's way of doing things is subject to constant change. So far I've been able to reason what drives the changes. Until today. I came across a batch of AQT targets. What looks like the name is "Target, Rifle D (100 yd) With the explanation below; "Reduced for 25 meter qualification and training (Stage 1).
What I couldn't figure out is this: along the right border, printed are the following classification categories: Expert 200-250; Sharpshooter 170-199; Marksman 125-169; and Unqualified below 125. With 210 as the threshold currently used for Rifleman, what does the Expert 200-250 mean?
Another note on said target reads: "...Shoot 200 or more points, you'll be given an honored place in the line ..." I ask again, what is the truth?
aj
Maybe an old old target,
Can you post a picture of one ?
Before the current single-sheet format of the AQT, there used to be separate sheets for each stage (I still have a few stashed somewhere that came with "Fred's Guide"), there were two 10 shot stage 4s I think instead of doubling the single 10 shot stage like we do now, and the transitions were done a little differently. As changes were made to the original, time limits and qualifying score was shifted accordingly.
I think the threshold got raised either when the 30 cal rule started or because of the 20 shot stage 4 becoming 10 shot - maybe someone who's been around longer than me can verify?
It is an old target. It has only the target for stage 1 plus two additional sighting targets at the bottom. I understand that the time changes on the transition stages was driven by the fact that at one time transitions were done with a loaded rifle; compensating for the fact that now the first loading is done "on the clock". Total scores still puzzle me. I'm trying to post a picture, but I'm somewhat technology challenged. But eventually I'll figure it out.
aj
First try at posting pics:
That looks like the old KD targets Fred sells.
At KD 200 takes the patch. 210 is for reduced range.
I don't think its a KD target. First it has the same physical dimensions as the "first stage" target presently used. Second, on the instructions on the left hand margin it reads: "Target, Rifle "D" (100 yd) Reduced for 25-meter qualification and training (Stage 1)". It was in use before the shots fired in stage 4 was reduced from 20 shots to 10 shots and the score doubled. See the instructions on the left hand margin: "Course of Fire-25 meter precision combat rifle and qualification course, consisting of 50 record shots fired in four stages".
It's evident that today's Appleseed if different than the early stages Appleseed. Today the answers are not of critical importance to the program. I just think that maybe someday somebody will try and draft a history of the program and keeping corporate knowledge (records) alive will produce better results.
aj
The required score went up because stage 4 became 10 shots doubled rather than 20 shots. Twenty shots is harder since most people lack the concentration necessary to fire 20 good shots in slow prone. On the original you had two rows of 4 targets.
Thanks for the explanation. It's logical. I will post a picture of the "old" 4th stage target as soon as I get the battery charged on my camera. Different indeed.
I would appreciate some feedback on whether folks are interested in this type of information. Just so that I may decide if I'm just trashing the forum.
aj
Well, there IS a subforum titled "Early (Pre-Appleseed) History."
IMO, I think a thread about the evolution of the AQT would not be out of place there. Folks will be coming across those old sheets for awhile to come and be wondering, just like you did.
You are right, azmule. How do I get this thread moved to the sub forum you mentioned?
aj
Attached is a copy of one of the "old" stage 4 target. As you can see, it has 11 targets. The instructions read: "STAGE 4 fired on this target / Prone Position, Slow Fire / Two sighters and 20 rounds / 22-minutetime limit / Fire 2 rounds at each target." Quite different from the present day target as depicted on today's AQT.
aj
I went searching over the weekend and I only have a couple of stage ones and a stage three left of the old targets. If needed I can upload an image of the stage three for the archive.
Thanks azmule. I have copies of stage three and stage 2. I'll post them as soon as I get the chance. Quite different from today's.
Stage 2 target has 5 silhouettes/ 2 rounds per target. Stage three target has 6 silhouettes/2 rounds per target (two sighters I imagine??). what I really need is for some of the old timers that have been in Appleseed since its inception to shed some light on the early stages of the program as it relates to the shooting phase. Right now I can deduct that 4 targets were posted to shoot an AQT?
aj
Another bit of information that was pointed out to me is that the new 4-row AQT format makes it possible to cheat by observing the hits from one stage and, if necessary, adding rounds during another stage. For example, if you drop a couple of rounds in standing into one of the 200 yard silhouettes, you can always shoot two more at the 100 yard silhouette in seated. Hence a higher threshold.
Something more to watch for. Harder to pull off with 10 round magazines, though. I foresee a bit of a briefing at the next shoot.
Initially I misread the above as filling in the missed shots from stages 2 and 3 in stage 4 Someone who is capable of dropping their standing shots into the scoring area of the sitting targets, as described above, is not likely to make rifleman regardless of their cheats. Besides, cheating or gaming the system for an advantage only cheats the individual shooter.
Why did the4-row AQT came into being? I enjoy playing devil's advocate; here are my 2-cents:
1. Cut costs by posting one page instead of four. 2. Increase the number of AQTs that can be fired in a given amount of time. 3. All of the above. 4. None of the above. 5. Other (please explain).
The single-sheet format was before my time, so I can only speculate. Old timers please speak up!
aj
Quote from: airplanejoe on March 21, 2016, 02:48:39 PM
Attached is a copy of one of the "old" stage 4 target. As you can see, it has 11 targets. The instructions read: "STAGE 4 fired on this target / Prone Position, Slow Fire / Two sighters and 20 rounds / 22-minutetime limit / Fire 2 rounds at each target." Quite different from the present day target as depicted on today's AQT.
aj
22 minutes for the stage??? I still bet half the line would be done in under 5 minutes. ;D
Mike
True, Twineagles. But why? I would guess that in those days the stage was shot in a way closer to what the present day CMP or even NRA highpower is shot. Single load. Big difference. Stage 4 is supposed to simulate a 400 yd target. There are some among us (not me) that advocate "rifleman's cadence" when shooting this stage. With a semi auto, mag fed rifle: Less than a minute. Good, bad, doesn't matter,...?? Like I said, All that happened before my time, I wasn't there. That is why I'm asking for comments from folks that participated in that era.
aj
Wildman sometimes tells a story about shooting a highpower match Slowfire prone at a "Rifleman's cadence." He said that he ALMOST shot as well as he did normally. Almost.
I attended a Bullseye class by Brian Zins this weekend. He's not much on "cadence" because cadence doesn't have anything to do with sight alignment, sight picture or trigger control. The key isn't a "cadence," the key is to make good shots. Sometimes a third party will see that process in terms of cadence, but what the shooter should see is sight alignment and trigger control leading to good shots.
Quote from: airplanejoe on March 16, 2016, 05:26:07 PM
I don't think its a KD target. First it has the same physical dimensions as the "first stage" target presently used. Second, on the instructions on the left hand margin it reads: "Target, Rifle "D" (100 yd) Reduced for 25-meter qualification and training (Stage 1)". It was in use before the shots fired in stage 4 was reduced from 20 shots to 10 shots and the score doubled. See the instructions on the left hand margin: "Course of Fire-25 meter precision combat rifle and qualification course, consisting of 50 record shots fired in four stages".
It's evident that today's Appleseed if different than the early stages Appleseed. Today the answers are not of critical importance to the program. I just think that maybe someday somebody will try and draft a history of the program and keeping corporate knowledge (records) alive will produce better results.
aj
I really hope the history of the early days have been preserved so future students have something to look back and reflect on, and see how the program grew.