The 2016 rule change allowing optics for CMP Service Rifle has me wondering what the best course of action is as someone looking to get started in CMP/NRA gun games.
I have never shot a service rifle match, but I want to start. My current carbine is noncompliant, so looking at this from the ground up as a completely green shooter, I can't help but wonder if ignoring optics altogether and just building an oldschool A2 clone makes the most sense (perhaps rerouting some of the money saved on the glass into a nice trigger). I'm just not seeing where a scope will give a slob like me any advantages, since mostly I just see myself having one more variable to lose focus over.
Naturally, this kind of rifle would carry over to KD Appleseeds (and would get shot at them), which is why I thought it best to consult people I know will have some experience!
TL; DR - Should a brand new service rifle shooter worry at all about 2016 rule changes, or just stay with a typical A2 build?
I'll speak for myself here, I know other Hi Pwr shooters have switched to the optic this year.
I started last year, I bought 2 complete A2 uppers from Creedmoor Sports (Criterion Uppers).
For some, the 4x optic may be of help, if eyesight is an issue. That really is the only advantage I can think of.
What I have learned:
1. Giessele trigger is pretty much a must.
2. I plan to continue to compete with iron sights, my vision although not great, is sufficient to score high, if I do my part.
3. Lots more gear required, if you decide to get into SVC rifle competition, I would recommend a decent shooting coat (Creedmoor Hardback Cordura is a decent one.
4. A quality spotting scope, and stand is a MUST! Highly recommend the Kowa, with a 24X long extended eye relief eyepiece.
5. A good 1907 style sling, Turner is a good one, there are several out there, but I am using the Turner. Gi Web sling would work, but not as well as a 1907 style leather sling.
6. Weight for the buttstock of the rifle, they sell lead wedges to fit in buttstock. Also they have them for the front handguard as well. I believe my SVC rifle weighs in at over 15 lbs now. But balances well.
7. If you have issue with iron sights, particularly on a SVC rifle look at Bob Jones on the internet, I have a +.025 diopter installed in my rear peep, and it really does help with seeing my FSP.
8. Attend some local matches first, before attending a big match like the CMP Eastern Games or Camp Perry. This will give you an idea on what is required logistically, and who knows maybe some shooter will have an optic on his SVC rifle and let you try it. We are for the most part a very friendly group, and love getting new people into the sport.
9. Attend a Project Appleseed KD, if you can score Rifleman out to 400 yards on a KD, your ready to start....LOL, I say that with humility, because I thought I was WAY READY, but I was not.
10. Practice STANDING without the sling, sling must be on the rifle, in parade configuration, when standing. Standing is shot at 200 yards and it ATE my lunch my first few big matches.
11. A cart is a MUST when shooting across the course, unless you want to hump your gear between the 200/300 and 600 lines. Also, some ranges, Perry especially, require a LONG walk before you even get to the range. Decent cart is pretty much a must for XTC shooting.
Hit me up if you have any more questions, also look for Aggrivere's and JMdavis' posts on here. Lots on the subject. Also, check the CMP forums, look for a post from Greg Ficklin, the subject is "What it takes to be competitive" and there is a LOT of RED MEAT in that topic to help you on your way.
Also....if getting an A2 style upper, or a flat top upper for an optic, it is best to buy a complete upper from a reputable company. You will want a free floated barrel, 1/4 min adjustable match sights, and the sling attachment point not on the gas block. White Oak, Rock River, Criterion are a few to consider. Some have a "lead time", some are in stock now. Make sure it is a heavy barrel with at least a 1:7 twist, 20". You will need the minimum of 1:7 twist for the 600 yard line, where you will/should be shooting a 77 grain bullet, if not a handloaded 80 grain bullet.
SO......to your original question, optic or not....as you see above there are a lot of other things to consider. Lastly, if using iron sights, make sure you have a .072" WIDE FSP, you will thank me! LOL
ALSO...., LOL...if and when you commit to the Hi Pwr sport, you may want to get one of these. I went ALL in in the beginning on my gear, consulted with several Distinguished shooters and was on the fence about getting one of these. I am very happy I did, and were I to have to start all over again, this is definitely something I would have purchased sooner. Not cheap, but it is AWESOME! Read this thread:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=47682.msg328924#new
Here is the CMP Forum link to the post mentioned above, it is a great read, and great info:
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=138584
Best of luck!
Chris
When you say your current carbine is noncompliant, what part is noncompliant? The new rules allow for pretty much any AR to compete without doing very much.
http://thecmp.org/2016-cmp-rifle-and-pistol-rule-changes/
Also, don't overlook the option of using an M1, M1A, M1903 variant, or any number of foreign military surplus rifles under the "modern military" class. Yes, the AR is what wins all the matches, but they all hit the target.
What local matches do you have available? If a local club shoots reduced targets on a 100 or 200yd range, just show up with a "pretty close" rifle and shoot. Decent 55 or 62gr ammo will be fine, don't worry about special match stuff to start. Most clubs are happy to see new faces join and are willing to let some rules get bent as long as you aren't cleaning the course (but to be safe, contact the match director ahead of time and ask). Don't worry about the score either, just go to learn. If you get the bug, all the stuff navybowhunder reccomends will be in your future and needed to go home with medals and such. If you just want to go and have a good time and improve your shooting and don't mind getting funny looks, the few matches I've been to I wore a flannel shirt and jeans. I hit the target and had fun.
Luckily, I am in northern Alabama and can reasonably get to Talladega a few times a year at least. But, I am somewhat new to the area and still feeling things out - aside from the posted monthly NRA matches out there I don't know what's around.
My current carbine is a no-go because the trigger is 3.5 pounds, and my setup would be pretty tough at 600 as my sights are not easily adjustable for come-ups or windage (fixed LaRue BUIS behind a 2-MOA Aimpoint).
I think I can chase Rifleman at full distance with that using a 25-yard zero and big dose of persistence, but for the price of another trigger and a carry handle (or optic & mount) to comply with Service Rifle rules I'm halfway to another gun with the spare parts I have on-hand.
Thank you both for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it!
1st priority is a good upper. White Oak, Compass Lake, Criterion, or Keystone Accuracy are all good one. Personally I would go with an A4 and handle simply because it opens future options.
2nd Priority is a Trigger that works for you. I would not buy a manufacturers complete gun and think that the trigger would be good. Geissle makes a fantastic trigger. But many people have reached Master class with RockRiver NM triggers too.
3. Coat. You do need a decent coat, but spend some time on National Match Forums and a used one in your size might show up for a good price. Creedmoor is good, but Champions Choice and Champion Shooter Supply have decent coats too. What size are you.
4. A decent scope and scope stand. Kowa is a great scope. But you use the scope in different ways than you think that you will when you start. The primary use for a spotting scope is not looking at the target. That is secondary. The primary use is watching the mirage and picking up wind changes before they make it to the flags. The Konus scopes are pretty good at this and will be less than 1/3 the cost of the Kowa. They are not as good as a Kowa, but they work.
5. Cart etc. My first cart was a hand truck with a milk crate bungied to it. It worked. I then bought a Rayvin Cart kit for my Champions Choice Stool and used that for a few years. Finally I found a Schneller that I liked used for a good price and I bought it. A lot of guys use jogger strollers as a cart. And they work fine. They are also cheap.
Right now, go and joint National Match Forums, if you haven't and start your research. It will help you make good decisions and you will find some deals there on occasion.
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/
Thank you for your thoughts sir - what Geissele in parcticular gets the most attention? I would assume Hi-Speed Nat'l Match Service Rifle, but I am kind of curious about what the alternatives are (if there realistically are any). Specifically the SD-C has my attention, as I have flat triggers in two of my rifles and like them.
As for a coat, I am between an L and XL generally (6'2, 200 lbs and falling) so at least I should have an easy time finding my size. I am a blank slate when it comes to shooting coats, is there anything to watch out for? I have read that the coat should be tight for support, but I do not remember where I saw that or who said it.
I was not registered at USRifleteams yet, but I am now. I know I have a ton of reading to do.
I do have one other question (last one, I promise) - is there anything wrong with building my own upper out of the best parts I can manage? My intent was for the barrel to be either a Criterion or WOA, so I am tracking there. But, I happen to have a stripped A2 upper receiver, most of the small parts for it and a spare BCG so it seems odd to go buy a complete A2 upper assembly when I already have a decent chunk of it on-hand.
I think I am good with an A2-style upper, I have loved that look since I was a little kid.
You can absolutely build it yourself. But in general the cost of the barrel and the float tube and hand guards is well over 1/2 of the cost of a complete upper. When you add in a 1/2x1/2 moa or 1/4x1/4 moa rear sight, you are over 2/3 of the way to a new a2 upper and that is assuming that you have all of the tools.
If you go this route, make sure that you check your headspace with a known good headspace gauge. It is usually fine, but you need to know.
I shot a Rock River NM trigger for the first couple of years. I would recommend that you try one. They are less than 1/3 the price of a Geissle and you might wind up giving up the sport.
I have the RR NM triggers in all of my AR's except my Spacegun and my Service Rifle. They have Geissle's, which were installed this year. The RR NM is a good two stage traditional trigger, and mine have required no adjustments over 3 years of matches, and recreational shooting. It will save you around $200 over the cost a Geiselle and you can put that money toward ammo and components, this year.
Finally, and this is important. The way a gun looks is irrelevant. The ONLY thing that matters is how well you shoot it. I watched a guy in 2014 win the scope class of the NRA nationals what with amounted to an M4 with a weight attached to the back.
First thing though, go shoot an NRA match with your carbine. They will likely let you and it will be good for you to get a feel for HP before spending a lot of money.
Quote from: jmdavis on February 23, 2016, 12:38:09 PM
Finally, and this is important. The way a gun looks is irrelevant. The ONLY thing that matters is how well you shoot it. I watched a guy in 2014 win the scope class of the NRA nationals what with amounted to an M4 with a weight attached to the back.
Yes sir, 100% understood. All I really meant to get at with that was that I don't mind an A2 for an irons-only rifle anyway, so if possible I'd prefer to use up leftover parts from other projects (waste not, etc).
Thank you for the advice, I am studying up and trying to track down some of the reading material listed on usrifleteams.com this week.
If you are serious, PM me your email and I will send you some notes that I have collected from various coaches and put together.
K,
JM Davies has good advice. Go shoot a match! Unless you are cleaning out the competition, chances are nobody will care if your rifle is kosher or not.
In Florida a periodical named "The Sportsman Gazette" is published quarterly; www.sportsmangazette.com. The Jan-Feb-Mar 2016 issue has an article called "New CMP Service Rifle Rules for 2016". Good analysis of the changes. I won't re-type it here, but bottom line is that practically any AR type rifle will meet the new requirements. I have an old beat up 6 year old Bushmaster carbine and that would now be "legal".
I'm really a rooky in CMP and NRA High Power competitions; but like it was posted before, you won't know what you need until you try it.
Hope this helps.
aj