Hello all,
After becoming humbled in NRA and CMP competitions with the "standing" position, I opted to purchase a SCATT training system.
I must say I am very impressed so far with the system. I went with the wireless, WS-01 system. Within 30 minutes of receiving the system, I was practicing.
Pretty simple setup, run software, choose target (in this case a 200 yard NRA HP target), set distance to the target (4.19 meters for me) and then print the representative target.
I was a bit bummed at first as my aiming black was about the size of my thumbnail. But that makes sense being I was only 4.19 meters from the target.
But the system definitely works. It traces on my computer my "hold/wobble area", I can see my breathing reflected in the trace as well. System hears the "Click" from the rifle, and records shot placement on the target (also reflected on the computer screen) and then traces the follow thru after the shot.
I was able to make small improvements in my position, and plan to establish a daily training regimen.
The system is very portable, I know of some shooters that use in the hotel room prior to a match.
I was torn between this system, or buying a MAR-177 AR15 air rifle to mimic my service rifle and setting up a portable air gun range in my garage. I still may do that someday. But for now, the SCATT system is what I will be using.
For anyone wanting to step their game up in HP shooting disciplines this system is awesome.
It costs, I think around $1300 when all said and done. But, I feel it is worth every penny at this point.
Developed by the Russians, I believe for their Olympic shooters/biathalon shooters.
It works great for rifle, airgun, and pistol shooting. Cannot practice dynamic pistol shooting, but static bullseye type shooting it would work good for.
Here is the website, if anyone is interested:
http://www.scattusa.com/
R/
Chris
For anyone who really wants to improve their shooting skills, a Scatt (or one of the other electronic trainers - there are several around) is the best money you'll ever spend. It's a significant amount of money but when you consider the cost of live fire it pays for itself faster than you can imagine, and the data you get tells you exactly how perfect your practice really is!
I agree with what has been said with one caveat. Don't worry about the score on the SCATT. The SCATT can tell you important things about your technique, ability and problems. The least important of these is the final score of 10 or 20 or 30 shots. It's easy to start thinking in terms of score if your focus isn't on one shot matches.
Perhaps when you begin you can only shoot 5 good shots. That's ok. Keep working at it. Each shot is a separate match and your goal is to shoot each well.
If you shoot 20 good shots, whether you are dry firing at a blank wall, shooting on the SCATT, training at the Range or shooting in a Match. You will have a good result. The score is secondary. This is also one reason why I like dry firing at a blank wall or even a blank target sometimes. You can do the same with the scatt by putting the target in backward and only looking at the screen when you are done. We all know that we can shoot an X or a 10 or a V or a 5 on one shot. We've all done it. But the key is keeping the concentration and the process going to do it 10 or 20 or 30 times. Combine that with the principle of overload and we find ourselves reaching the point of shooting more "good" shots in a session than it takes to shoot the match.
Do you know what happens when you do that? You shoot very well! A shooter who can make 10 good shots can shoot a 100. It might even seem easy. But the key is to focus on the process that gets you the good shots and to repeat that process every single time you are at the line.
I have watched a 100lb 17 year old girl shoot a 100 in offhand in a Leg Match. And she made it look easy. Because she was well trained enough to be able to shoot 10 good shots without any issue.
Update,
After 3 days of using this system, I am amazed at the amount of feedback I have received about my "Fundamentals".
This dawned on me this morning, I'm actually really enjoying/looking forward to practicing as much as I would look forward to a live fire match!
I do not enjoy simply "dry firing" at a screw on a light switch or electrical outlet. While one can learn a lot doing that, to me quite frankly it is BORING! No other way for me to honestly word that another way. It is very boring.
That to me is probably the biggest advantage of the SCATT system. It makes dry firing, enjoyable, because one gets INSTANT feedback from the computer on the shot.
My excitement to start a training session immediately after work, is also likely hurting me a bit. I swapped from the Garand to the Service Rifle (AR15) yesterday. Shot 2, 10 round matches, with a 79 and 81 respectively for the score. As stated above, the score is not that important. What is important, is the TRACE the computer shows when I am coming down on the target. I receive INSTANT feedback on my position. I tend to favor the left side of the target at this point, and THINK I have good NPOA but really I am coming down on the left 8 ring. It also showed me "muscle" the rifle into the 10/X ring, and guess where the shot wound up? Right "6" at 3 o'clock! Aiming at a light switch would not teach me that. Likely cause I am a bonehead/hardheaded.
So, today I will wait an hour after work, to "wind down" and then shoot a 20 round match. I will WORK HARD for it, and "check" my trace on the computer screen when I come down on the target. If it is not center black, I will start over. What will this do for me? I'm hoping that in the long run, I will develop the memory of what "IT is SUPPOSED to look like" and it will become habit.
This system is awesome!!
R/
Chris
Chris,
Watch this. Try it if you think it will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ
I'll check the video out from home (at work now).
I did go home at lunch, and shot about 40 rounds standing with the SVC rifle. Rifle weighs about 15 lbs. My first 30 shots, were not so good, no misses, but nothing to brag about. But I did get feedback on my position.
I was using the V hold, on the Delta ring, with my support hand fingers near the ejection port, I found rifle wanting to dip on me a lot, and also my support arm did not feel "locked in".
I then tried the "fist" hold, and that was better.
I figured why not try the "Reverse V", where my fingers would be on left side of the receiver. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I made a significant improvement in my hold. Score was an 89, but as stated score is really irrelevant at this point. What I want to see is less wobble, and that I am coming down vertically into the black and holding that.
Mission accomplished. Rifle felt a lot lighter and I was more comfy.
To the original topic, in the past 5 days, I've probably dry fired 250 times with this system. Consider the cost of ammo and the walking back and forth to analyze the target and attempt to (on my own without a coach) figure out what my issues are! WOW
Was cool to be able to drive home at lunchtime and dryfire 40 rounds in my garage.
Quote from: Agrivere on February 09, 2016, 07:26:53 AM
For anyone who really wants to improve their shooting skills, a Scatt (or one of the other electronic trainers - there are several around)
Can you name some of the other alternative trainers?
The most commonly seen alternative is the Top Gun trainer. It's significantly cheaper, and I have a number of friends who have them and like them. They all function in the same basic way, in that there is a target, a sensor on the rifle (or pistol, many work with pistols too) that determines where the rifle is pointed, and a piece of software to interpret the results. If the Top Gun has a weakness compared to the Scatt it lies in the software. The Top Gun will plot your shots and show groups and scores as well as any, but the Scatt offers a lot more data which can at times be helpful for tracking your progress and diagnosing errors.
The Scatt is a Russian made unit which as I understand it was developed by the Russian Olympic program, while the Top Gun is Chinese made. Not sure that difference is really important but there you go. You do sometimes see Noptel trainers around, but I don't ever see them for sale really and they are more expensive than either of the other two.
Personally I felt like the Scatt was worth the extra investment, but the Too Gun certainly does work and friends who have them do like them.
If you have any other questions let me know!
Quote from: goodoldfriend on July 30, 2016, 09:27:33 PM
Quote from: Agrivere on February 09, 2016, 07:26:53 AM
For anyone who really wants to improve their shooting skills, a Scatt (or one of the other electronic trainers - there are several around)
Can you name some of the other alternative trainers?
It's not the answer you want but if you will blank wall dryfire 30 minutes or as many good shots as you can 4 times a week for a month you will be astounded by your performance improvement and will have spent $0.
I think that the main value of the SCATT is as a diagnosis tool. It is just too had for many people to avoid keeping score when using it and they wind up focusing on the outcome rather than the performance. I have had the Scatt since 2013. As a club tool I think they are great. As a tool to determine your hold and diagnose specific problems they are great. But using them to shoot virtual matches is not great.
"if you will blank wall dryfire 30 minutes or as many good shots as you can 4 times a week for a month"
I appreciate the suggestion and will try it. I may have missed something, what is the advantage of dry firing at a blank wall? Isn't part of the idea to learn and apply the "steady hold factors"?
How can you do that if you don't have an point at which to aim?
I hope you can help me understand.
Thanks!
The target is a distraction. The blank wall removes the target and lets you focus on building the process of a smooth trigger. Many people think that they have good trigger control and a few actually do. But if you look at the very best shooters in the country all of them practice blank wall dry fire for more than 50% of their training. They also work on dry fire without position and even with their eyes closed to learn their trigger.
As was pointed out to me at the High Power nationals by two national champions, there aren't any shortcuts to being good. There is work and dedication.
Here is a link to a post that I wrote about dry fire some weeks ago,
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48867.0
Mr. Davis,
Thank you for taking time to explain this to me. I read your other article and will start tomorrow with some dry fire training (I am at work tonight till 11 and don't get home till midnight). Heck I might even get the rifle out when I get home and try some of the closed eyes trigger practice. I just installed a new trigger (KIDD two stage) and have noticed the rifle will put the round where I want if I do my part.
I am a fellow with a few years on me. My goal is to learn to shoot well. The Appleseed Rifleman's patch is my first mini goal.
I am going to post a question or two in your other article as I don't want to hijack this thread.
Thanks again for your time and reply.
Best wishes.
Quote from: jmdavis on August 04, 2016, 02:16:58 PM
As was pointed out to me at the High Power nationals by two national champions, there aren't any shortcuts to being good. There is work and dedication.
Here is a link to a post that I wrote about dry fire some weeks ago,
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48867.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48867.0)
Yup. And in the same vein here's a post by FiremanBob from just a month ago about offhand, getting comfortable with the rifle, etc:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48947.0
And jeez, I gotta get off this stinking computer and do some of these drills myself.
I read the information that FiremanBob posted too.
So much to learn and do.
I am glad I can still learn, I hope that continues all my life.
Gentlemen, credit where credit is due. I may have posted Agrivere's article (since that's my role as Newsletter editor) but he wrote it.
I am looking forward to the next installment. Thank you sir.
FYI, I am over 50. Went to my first App,seemed at 44, taught 2008-2012. I took up highpower in mid 2011. It was hard. But that was a few years and 40 lbs ago. Don't give up.
No giving up here. I have a few years on you.
Total knee replacement, left knee in January. Already lost 20+ pounds.
I am just taking things one step at a time. And, having fun!
This is all an exercise in learning, concentration, application, and perseverance.
Hi guys,
I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread, especially being late and all.
Mike was cautioning against the score produced by the SCATT system but he didn't explain why. It's all in the timing. When you fire a shot using the SCATT you align your sights as well as you can and apply pressure to the trigger. When the weapon fires the system records the shot at the speed of light, or maybe sound, but either way it's very fast. When you actually fire a shot the projectile dribbles along at couple thousand feet per second.
Let's say your arc of movement is sweeping the bull as you shoot, and crosses the x ring just as you fire. On the SCATT system the shot is recorded instantly and you are scored an X. If you actually fired that shot from your rifle there is trigger time , barrel time and flight time to contend with and by the time the projectile hits the target you are back out in the nine ring.
Years ago I started practicing with a SCATT system in my basement. It didn't take me long to realize that I couldn't duplicate my SCATT scores at the range.
If you get used to the fast recording of shots you can also start relaxing as soon as you shoot because there is no penalty for quitting earlier rather than following through with the shot. Your body is naturally lazy and will take advantage of any chance to rest.
I was reading a letter written by a fan to an author of a book. The fan was saying that surely the author didn't think about the basics of writing like nouns, pronowns and verbs when they were composing the stories they wrote. I still remember the reply. "Think about them! Hell, I revel in them" was the reply. What does that have to do with shooting? The author was talking about the basics of writing. We are talking about the basics of shooting. I hear shooters say that dry firing is boring. As I learned more about shooting I started to find it exciting as it allowed me to concentrate on little things like the front sight while I applied pressure to the trigger.
Doug
While I've also seen that scatt scores don't translate to live fire scores, I disagree with one of your reasons. The idea that the scatt shot travels at the speed of light and the live bullet does not is certainly true, but to suggest that's a weakness of the scatt is misleading. The scatt was settings built in which will account for this if you use them correctly. It calculates the speed and direction of the barrel and the settings will then calculate where that bullet would land if it were a live fire shot. It can be calibrated for air rifles, rimfire rifles, centerfire rifles, and anything else you can imagine. It can even simulate random group dispersion of live rounds if you want it to.
What it doesn't do is simulate recoil, noise, flinch, wind, heat, cold, bright sunny days, dim overcast days, uneven firing points, rain, and most importantly match nerves. While I've certainly observed that my scatt scores don't duplicate my live fire scores, the reasons above are what I attribute it to. It's a great tool to develop a solid position, but at some point live fire has to be part of the training plan.
F coefficient is supposed to take flight time and follow through into consideration. But even when using the f coefficient of an air gun, I have seen people have issues with duplicating the results. When you shoot the same score repeatedly on the Scatt, dryfire religiously and still find a consistent difference it may have as much to do with the scatt as the shooter. I have seen some shooters that can regularly shoot 97-100 in Match situations tell me that they thought the call was off.
But Scatt is a valuable tool for tracking progress via its statistics as opposed to score. The amount if time spent in the 10 and x rings is good data. The trace before and after the shot is too. This is particularly true when you look for patterns.
As always your mileage may vary. But VAShooters Scatt for an air pistol is set to the recommended F coefficient of air pistol. I played around with it a couple of times using the trigger sensor and his Morini 162 air gun. The results were gratifying, but I take them with a grain of salt.
We can actually test this by modifying the f coefficient and shooting strings. Calling the shots and comparing the scores. If it will really take follow through into consideration we should see scores drop as the f coefficient gets higher. After all an HP rifle is sending its bullet down a generally shorter barrel at 5 to 6 times the speed of an air gun.
Agrivere,
Where were you twenty five years ago when I was setting up my SCATT? I could have used some help.
I sense a little emotional involvement in your defense of the SCATT system because after rereading my post I see nothing that even hinted at a "weakness" in SCATT. I have used it for training in air rifle and air pistol and a little free pistol as well. I used the tone generator the most. The system separated the scoring rings by tone. Lowest tone at the outer ring and higher tones as your hold progressed in to the center. It was great for holding drills. Often I would turn out the lights and hold in the dark. Try to maintain the highest tone for as long as possible. It is a very Zen like experience.
Recoil and noise are not problems when you are shooting airguns. My last year of High Power was 1970 and SCATT wasn't available back then.