I went to an appleseed a while ago, and I have been practicing a bit. I am running into two issues. I have a savage 64 kd and the scope seems really low on it, so it's hard to Turkey neck with out getting the double ring in the scope. I don't know if increasing the length of the stock is feaseable or worth while. Would it be better to sit back a bit and have a clearer site. And the other issue I seem to have is the scope seems to be off every time I bring it out. I don't know if that is due to the issue mentioned above. Or that it may be moved a bit when I am moving it around in the safe. Or maybe I just need to shoot more to get more familer with it. Any help would be great!
I'd try adjusting the length, or increasing your index to target, or finding a way to set the scope farther forward if possible. You need to have your head in a consistent position, and I find with my scoped rifle that craning my head back for proper sight alignment is a literal pain in the neck, which can't be consistent. We can try to get you to "good enough on the line if you show up with a problem, but I would recommend you take that knowledge home and make your rifle fit you better. Try a slip on recoil pad, see if the extra length of pull helps.
I agree with 509. Try moving either the scope mount, the scope tube, or both of them forward to increase your eye relief to permit a consistent turkey neck position. Changing your face position on the stock will actually change your bullet's point of impact. I suspect that is why your scope always seems to be changing it's zero.
If nothing else seems to help consider trying a different scope as they have been known to fail (been there, done that).
Taller scope rings, a mount that sets your scope farther forward are a couple of things that may help, and that is assuming the scope works well.
A longer stock may help too, try a slip on recoil pad to move the entire rifle forward, see if that helps.
Rifles are sized to fit people a little smaller than average.
The rule of thumb is too short is better than too long. Unfortunately, many people never had a rifle that really fit their body.
Gun manufacture's want their product to fit as many people as possible. Only problem is, none of us are average.
I am not afraid to take a wood stock to a saw, have cut them off, so kids, and plus size people can reach the controls, and have also been known to rip a flat on each side of the stock and using bondo attaching more wood to be reshaped into a stock that feels good, places the scope in the right spot, and allows three solid points of contact with the rifle in sitting position. (Shoulder pocket, cheek, trigger hand.)
Before making any permanent modification consider, the cost to replace the part.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22817.msg179976#msg179976 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22817.msg179976#msg179976)
2cl
Thank you for all of the replys, I am going to have to look at making some if these adjustments :)
Ed,
Is there any chance you could post a photo of the rifle with scope, and even better, of you in prone position with it? It would make it easier to determine what's happening. The height of your scope doesn't seem to be the problem based on your description. The fore-aft position does. Many rifles I see have their scopes mounted too far back, and the prone position puts your eye closer to the scope than does sitting or standing. That's when you get the tunnel vision.
The failure to hold zero might be due to the scope, to its mount, or since you seem not to have enough eye relief, to inconsistent alignment of your eye with the scope. What kind of scope is it?
With a standard OEM stock, it's hard for a scope to be too low since the stock is designed for a good cheek weld using the (very low) stock iron sights. Since the scope is mounted higher, usually you need to raise the comb to be comfortable.
Trying to hold your head back would be self-defeating. You would be straining your neck muscles to hold your head back, or else holding the rifle butt away from your shoulder as a means of lengthening the eye relief. Either way make it impossible to relax into NPOA with consistent sight alignment, and hold the rifle steady.
Of course, you can get all the one-on-one, personal help you need at your next Appleseed. What, you haven't registered for your next one yet?
Lots of good information here!
Simple answer is if you want to shoot consistently, your head position must be both correct and consistent.
Get your sling on and get into position. Try to get a good cheek weld without paying attention to the location of the scope. Remove it from the rifle if it's in the way, at least for now. It's often helpful to try to find some sort of reference point for your head. On my AR15 that's the tip of my nose to the charging handle. On your Savage it might be nose to the back of the receiver, or whatever you find that feels comfortable and can be repeated consistently.
If you cannot seem to find a good head position (without worrying about the sights or the scope), you'll want to look more closely at your stock. The length of pull (that's basically the length of the buttstock behind the trigger) might need to be longer, or shorter, in order for you to find a comfortable and consistent head position. Until you can get your head in a consistent and comfortable position without worrying about the sights or the scope you'll want to focus on adjusting your stock until you can.
Once you have a good, consistent head position, then bring the scope back into the mix. Does it need to be further forward? Higher? Lower? You want to be looking straight through the center of the scope with your good head position. It's VERY common for scopes to be mounted WAY too far back on the rifle, as the "way back" scope mounting works best for shooting from a rest or a bench. It does NOT work well for position shooting.
There are many, many different styles of scope mounts, rings, risers, extensions, and so on for getting your scope in the right position. The most common obstacles I see are stocks that won't allow a high enough head position, or that won't allow the scope to be nearly far enough forward. Fixing the height may require either a different stock or some sort of cheek riser for your existing stock. Moving the mount further forward may require a different sort of mount or rail extension.
Feel free to post some pictures of yourself in position, and I'm sure we can collectively help you find a good solution!
A length of foam pipe insulation across the comb of the stock, held in place with duct tape, vet wrap, gauze, etc. is a cheap way to raise it.
I think the emphasis on a "turkey neck" position is more appropriate with aperture sights. With a scope you need good eye relief, proper cheek weld, and a relaxed repeatable position...Hopefully you can move your scope forward in the mounts if needed. It's really easy to raise the comb of the stock, I have used the pipe insulation several times with great results.
IIRC, "turkey neck" or stretching the head forward to establish the cheek weld position, has more to do with recoil management than with sight alignment. If the neck is stretched forward, the punch from your M1 will push the head back to a normal position. If not, the head has no room for movement to absorb the recoil and you'll take the punch on your cheekbone.
I like the 64 and bought one for my spouse to use as a general purpose 22lr. Being said it (like every rifle created) has it's own peculiarities.
A possible reason for the sight shifting a loose barrel clamp. The barrel is clamped to the receiver by a large bolt which also does double duty as the boss to bolt up the stock. Also, To do a full cleaning you have to pull the barrel from the receiver which results in a shift in alignment from 0 to 1 moa in the 2 model 64's we currently own. Being consistent with the torque on this bolt and putting a little witness mark on the barrel/receiver will help keep the alignment consistent on reassembly.
As far as getting the LOP longer. One of the advantages of the 64 is the long receiver which lets you get the scope forward, unlike the Ruger and Marlins. But you could try belt sanding the butt flat and adding a recoil pad.. (see photo of Remington 597 ACC)
To get your head more upright I've found that the UGT FNFAL plastic cheekpiece can be used and modded for many rifles. (see photo of Remington 597ACC and Marlin 795)
For faster Appleseed extended mag release and extended bolt handles are available inexpensively.
2 questions: How big is my group and where is my group? (Sorrry, couldn't resist) :---
I'm lost what does the hieght, have to do with eye releif?
I do have an answer for#2: you are constantly improving minor adjustments in address index position all of these tiny improvements necessitate scope adjustments.
Back to #1 I got low scope= get higher set of scope rings.
In liberty
Sly