OK All,
This post is geared towards the Dillon reloaders (550/650).
I have done just about all the "mods" to my powder measures possible, polishing the hopper with flitz, installing the baffles, keeping measure 1/2 full always, and installing the Uniquetek Micrometer powder meters, and the Uniquetek toolhead modifications.
Have been OK with drops for .45ACP, and some .223/.308/30-06, but some powders just plain SUCK out of the Dillon measures. BLC2 is so fine and I would have a table full of powder (likely 50 grains worth) after loading 100 or so .308's. Drops were very inconsistent, and forced me to have to weigh about every 5 drops to verify.
Well, good ol Facebook, and the Dillon Owners page steered me to another option that I am ecstatic about! Hornady case activated powder drops with the Hornady micrometer meters.
It works AWESOME! Throwing within 5/100ths of a grain repeatably! Press got a lot quieter as well, as I no longer need the activation arm (tensioner thing).
Figured I'd share, they are a bit pricey, from Midway USA each powder measure mod cost about $160. But having reliable powder drops, and no mess on my press or bench.....PRICELESS!
Yes, accurate precision ammo can be loaded on a progressive press. Just need to make a few mods is all.
R/
Chris
Wouldn't that be sweet if ole Mike Dillon got wind of this.
Then sat down and designed an up grade for Dillon powder measures.
Right Mark?!
I can only think that it is a "patent" thing.
Who knows, but the Hornady Drops work awesome. Others have done mod with RCBS drops as well.
R/
Chris
Will look into it - many thanks! O0
navy,
Can u list part numbers - want to be sure I get all the right parts on first try. I have two Dillons - bought second thinking maybe first was worn out and nice to have two, but it only stays within a tenth of a grain and have to keep close eye on it to keep it at that. As long as this Hornady doesn't slow me down - I'm in for sure.
Thanks,
PH
Can you post pictures of the setup?
Part numbers:
Hornady Lock-N-Load Powder Measure Rifle Micrometer Metering Assembly
Product #: 425241
Hornady Case Activated Powder Drop
Product #: 591344
Hornady Lock-N-Load Powder Measure
Product #: 290524
As for a pic, I can do that as well, just not sure how to do in here. So, PM me with an email address, and I will email you a pic of the setup.
R/
Chris
Also, IF anyone is doing this, MAKE sure you youtube the Hornady videos on how to assemble. It is fairly straightforward, but every part needs to be degreased. Almost like getting an M1 with cosmoline!
You will be VERY unhappy if you do not degrease. Hornady recommends the One Shot cleaner/dry lube. I did not have that so I only degreased with Gunscrubber. I did not lube.
My 5/100ths of a grain drops came with using BLC2 powder. It is some NASTY powder for sure....very very fine. I have yet to throw RL15 or 4895 with it, but everyone says the results are the same. Very accurate drops.
I ordered 3 complete sets one for my .223 toolhead, one for my .308 toolhead, and one for my 30-06 toolhead.
NOW....I will caveat this with, you cannot expect to really use this on a single toolhead set up to do everything progressive. I should have mentioned that as well. My process is this:
1 dedicated toolhead with only a sizing die. I resize all brass, and then do my prep work. The next toolhead has the powder drop, and the seating die (taper die as well if you use one).
I am not sure how this would work if you were using a toolhead with sizing die, powder drop, and seating die. If your doing that I'd suggest buying a cheap $20 dollar toolhead and just size with a separate toolhead.
R/
Chris
I've done a lot of loading, and this makes sense.
I also have found Dillon measures to really SUCK with BLC-2. And, anything that measures BLC-2 well, should easily work with 4895. I've used both in competition guns, and they work well.
I think 1 of these setups is in my future, seeing I have a 550.
Now, a simple solution to the extra toolhead issue is to size with a regular press, like a Rockchucker, then load with the Dillon.
For accuracy work, I use Wilson hand dies and an arbor press. Usually with an old Belding and Mull measure. But, those are for bolt guns with tight necked chambers and turned necks on the brass. Definitely NOT something to use in one of the semi auto's.
PIX!(http://app6.websitetonight.com/projects/3/3/4/7/334729/uploads/HornadyPowderSetUpByNavybowhunterOnDillon650XL.jpg)
(http://app6.websitetonight.com/projects/3/3/4/7/334729/uploads/HornadyPowderSetUpByNavybowhunterPackaging.jpg)
Very Nice! ... I know what's going on
my birthday list :)
Vinnie
Quote from: navybowhunter on May 29, 2015, 01:12:47 PM
Part numbers:
Hornady Lock-N-Load Powder Measure Rifle Micrometer Metering Assembly
Product #: 425241
Hornady Case Activated Powder Drop
Product #: 591344
Hornady Lock-N-Load Powder Measure
Product #: 290524
As for a pic, I can do that as well, just not sure how to do in here. So, PM me with an email address, and I will email you a pic of the setup.
R/
Chris
(http://app6.websitetonight.com/projects/3/3/4/7/334729/uploads/Hornady_Lock-N-Load_AP_-_Case_Activated_Powder_Drop_Setup_VIDEO_SPLASH.png) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i17EZUFryVE)
One more question - thank you in advance for your patients and effort.
Is there a space issue with the 550? I see the part about a spare tool head.
I normally de-prime and size on the first run, then swage pockets and then trim. Once cases are fully prep'd, then I go to loading. However, I leave all devices in same place on 550 tool head. First up is priming of course, but the size die is still in that spot - I simply push the lever forward to prime, then spin the shell plate to add powder, skipping the sizing operation. Next, I put another empty case in, prime and rotate shell plate and add a projo, spin and prime - rinse and repeat.
Will this powder measure fit on the toolhead with the size die, seating die and crimping die at the same time, just like the Dillon powder measure does? Maybe I could have just posted the previous sentence. :wb:
PHenry,
I do not have a 550. However I have heard it will work just as well. I'd suggest posting question in a Dillon forum, such as the Dillon owners group on FB.
Or possibly someone in here could answer?
R
Chris
If it works on 650, it'll surely work on 550, as 650 is already mo "crowded".
Thx,
PH
Should be good to go on a 550.
My process is similar to Nickle and PHenry.
I sold my RockChucker and Lyman 1200 DPSII electric powder trickler last year when I went progressive. It has bothered me till about a few weeks ago, because of powder drops.
My process is now this:
I hand deprime all brass with a "Harvey hand held deprimer" it is an awesome tool (costs about $50), and you are not married to the reloading room. It allows you to deprime anywhere. Living room watching TV, sitting in a Lazyboy. In fact I will remember too bring with me to Perry, as it is something I can get ahead of in the hotel or camper during long matches.
I then SWAGE using a Dillon tool, if the brass requires it.
I then "Wet Tumble" using a Thumblers Tumbler with stainless media.
I then lube/resize. I resize my semi auto brass to .003" below what my fire formed brass is. I use a Hornady LNL Comparator for that measurement.
I use RCBS Case slick for lube, but may move to Hornady 1 shot.
Trim necks on a Giraud case trimmer if needed.
On new brass, uniform primer pockets.
Debur Flash Holes.
Wet tumble all again, to remove lube.
*New step (awaiting the tool), turn the necks.* This I have never done.
I hand prime all brass with an RCBS Universal hand primer (the newer one that does not need a shell holder).
Then it is off to the next toolhead with powder drop and competition seater dies. I use Whidden and Redding dies. I do not crimp, not even for my Garand.
Concentricity Checks/Bullet Runout: Just received the Hornady LNL Concentricity check tool, and it is cool. I checked some .223 match ammo, and some .308 match ammo, bullet runout for me on my loads was less than .001". Thought I was using tool wrong, so checked some HXP Garand ammo, and yup tool works. HXP had as much as .005 to .008" of runout. I am still on the fence about correcting the runout on the HXP ammo. BUT, the Redding dies and Whidden dies with the sleeves, surely help with getting a lined up bullet.
I am also NEW to seating to "just off the lands", I will experiment with that as well. I typically load to the COAL specified in the manuals.
So, yes.....an RCBS single stage would work for sizing, but that CASE Feeder on the 650 (also an option for the 550), makes resizing a dream. Load it up with about 150 cases, hit the power switch, and just crank on the handle.
My 650 sits atop a "Strong mount" (elevated), and I have the roller handle.
My goal is and always will be to produce "match grade" ammo, (better than Federal GMM or similar) on my Progressive press and this process is what works for me.
R/
Chris
**Some more items for consideration: I did do the Uniquetek tool head modifications to my tool heads. Drilled em out, installed the helicoils, and now "tighten" the toolhead to the press. I tighten it when there is a piece of brass in every station. This has seemed to work for me.
On the hand depriming, another benefit is that never does a dirty piece of brass ever touch my press. Press looks immaculate all the time. Also another benefit of wet tumbling.
Wet tumbling can cause "galling" with pistol cases on the powder funnels on the Dillon measures. Some Imperial case lube solves that, not sure if I will need it with the Hornady drops.
HIGHLY recommend this tool. Put it this way, every single buddy of mine that has bought one, SWEARS by em! Here is the link to the Harvey hand held deprimer:
http://www.harveydeprimer.com/
Here is the link to the Uniquetek toolhead mod:
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230
Excellent choice for a case activated powder drop, my LNL meters pretty accurately with AR Comp and CFE 223 even without the micro meter adjustment add on.
For those that don't know, you wouldn't have to buy a separate powder measure for each tool head, unless you wanted to. The lower portion of the case activated assembly is available separately.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Case-Activated-Lower-Assembly-1-Each/ (http://www.hornady.com/store/Case-Activated-Lower-Assembly-1-Each/)
(http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/t-17795.jpg)
Buy these and the upper portion with the measure attaches and detaches by a spring and a thumb screw. Thought it might save someone some cash.
Sorry PH, didn't get here in time to save you any. :slap:
Cool! now how do I hide this purchase from the wife?
BTW-I just bought a Hornady 9mm bullet feeder die that works very well on my 650, makes loading 9mm alot nicer and a little quicker.
Well, this is an old post. I have my press set now as perfect as I think it can be. So.....here is an update
Since this posting, I have modified the press a little more. Thrust bearing washer mod for the shellplate (helps keep powder from leaving cases when rotating), and two roller bearing mods, one for the cam under the shell plate, and the follower rod.
Press has gotten REAL quiet and the powder spillage has been kept to a minimum.
Yesterday I worked out some issues I was having with a seating die. I have a recent post in here regarding the Whidden Free Floating (and clamped) toolheads. They are AWESOME! Concentricity is almost perfect and OAL variation is within .0005 as measured from the Ogive.
Time to start loading my 200/300 yard line ammo, 77 SMK, 24.0 of R-15, Wolf primed brass and OAL set to 2.258".
The Hornady drops/measures mentioned in this post have worked awesome! I actually paid a LOT of $$ for a Harrels Precision measure, as I figured I would use that for my 600 yard and beyond stuff. The Harrels (off press) and the Hornady (on the press) are damn near identical in variation, and there is little variation.
The Hornady measures yesterday, once dialed into 24.0 (R-15), I threw 3 loads to ensure the measure had settled, then weighed the next 5 charges. The came in at 24.02, 23.98, 24.10, 23.97, 24.03 for an average of : 24.02!
That my friends is AWESOME!
If you own a 550 or 650 and want to get a better powder measure (case activated...not press activated), you cannot go wrong with these Hornady's.
Was mentioned above that one can simply buy one complete measure, and then just buy the lower half, to save some $$. That would work great as well. But, it does take some time to dial in the measure. That is really why I bought a complete measure for each caliber. I would say it takes me 15-20 minutes to verify the micrometer setting. So.....dependent on how much your time is worth to you, it may not be worth the extra cost.
I still use the Harrels measure (off press) for my 600 yard line loads. It just gives me a warm fuzzy, but prior to purchasing the Harrels, I used the Hornady measures for my 600 yard line ammo and they flew just fine.
How Critical is it? Accurate powder throws?
Well....according to the likes of David Tubb and many other accomplished shooters (NRA HP), it really is not that critical, especially at 200/300 yards. You could be 1 grain off, and still hold the 10 ring. 10 ring is 2 MOA, so....
What is more critical to accuracy than accurate powder charges is brass preparation. Primarily, uniforming primer pockets and deburring the primer flash holes will yield a greater increase in accuracy than spending time "trickling" charges for your loads.
Regardless, it is NICE to not have to worry about powder charges.
Highly recommend the following mods to the 650:
1. Clamped Toolhead Mod: This is simply two helicoil inserted in the toolheads, where the locator pins would normally secure the toolhead to the press. Can buy the toolheads already modified from Uniquetek, or Whidden.....or you can buy the kit to install them yourself. I have done the self install, if you have a drill press it is a piece of cake to do. This takes away the vertical movement in the toolhead on the frame of the press.
2. If loading pistol, I still use the Dillon measure for that. However, I have polished the interior of the measure with Flitz, and deburred the funnel. I also bought the Arredondo powder measure (micrometer) for the Dillon measure from Uniquetek. It works great for pistol stuff. They sell micrometer kits for the rifle stuff....I bought em....did not notice a big increase in charge accuracy, that is why I went with the Hornady measures.
3. Inline Manufacturing press lighting kit. This is a great and easy mod/upgrade. Really brightens up the shellplate. I do not use the low powder sensor, and the light kit allows me to visually see each case for the charge level.
4. Strong Mount (elevated mount for press), this is a god send. Gets the press up a bit higher, and more ergonomic. I do need to use a stepladder/chair to reach my case feeder....but that is OK with me.
5. Roller Handle, this is also a great ergonomic mod. Could not picture myself loading 500 rounds without it.
6. I'm likely wrong on the press part terminology, but.....the plastic CAM under the shellplate that causes the shellplate to progress when the handle is lifted.....under that is a piece of plastic. I have replaced that with a stainless steel piece that has a roller bearing, it has really smoothed the shellplate progression. Additionally, there is a rod on the right side of the press that rides on the black plastic follower thing (the one ya need to reverse to load rifle or pistol), I replaced that stainless black rod, with one that has a roller bearing on the bottom. Negates the need for grease on the plastic piece and smooths the press operation up.
7. Hornady Measures to replace the Dillon ones (already discussed in this post)
8. Whidden free floating stainless steel toolheads, these are pricey, but they are worth every penny IMO. I have a post discussing those in here as well.
Other accessories:
Sizing Dies: I use strictly Dillon sizing dies, carbide ones for rifle and pistol. One must still use lube with the rifle carbide (recommended as well for the pistol as well). I like the Dillon dies....I have had 1 stuck case in my entire reloading career (15ish years), it was an RCBS small base die, and it stopped my reloading progress for a week (till I could get a replacement die). The Dillon sizing dies by design are easy to remove a stuck case if it does happen.
Seating Dies: I use strictly Whidden seating dies. John Whidden's seating dies are very accurate and I like the wider dial on it for adjustment.
Crimp die: I do not use them for rifle, for pistol I do use one
Tumbler: I wet tumble with stainless steel media, have been using the same stainless steel media now for 3 years, and it is still good. Thumblers Tumbler from STM.
Case Trimmer: I use a Giraud. I like the repeatability of the Giraud and the fact that it is off the press. Fingers get a little sore, so I wear a dishwashing glove, that seems to help. The other bonus of the Giraud is that you can get "meplat trimmers" for your calibers as well. Trimming the meplats/uniforming them is a good accuracy thing to do for long range. Unecessary for short to mid range. The Giraud is a 3 way trimmer, so it trims/chamfers and deburs in one pass.
Scale: I had used the RCBS balance beam, and some Japanese digital scale I got from Uniquetek. Digital scales can give erratic readings, recently I bought a Gempro 250. Several PRS/LR/BR shooters have been using the Gempro 250 with great results
Caliper: I use a simple RCBS digital, I change the batteries often to ensure I don't get erratic readings
Comprators: I have the Hornady headspace comprator and the bullet comprator. These are a MUST have IMO for reloading accurate ammo. About $40 each, but money well spent
Depriming tool: I do not ever deprime on the press, because I wet tumble. Harveys Handheld deprimer is awesome. Divorces one from the reloading bench, can deprime brass anywhere. Any caliber as well....
Priming tool: Sometimes I use the Dillon priming system on the press, often times I hand prime. I use the RCBS universal handheld primer. No shell holders required. It works OK. I have gotten some high primers from it, so be wary of that. I mitigate that by reseating the primers on the upstroke of the press anyways.
Primer Pocket uniforming Tool: I have a handheld model, and it works well. I heard yesterday that my friend chucks his up in a drill and it makes quick work of this task. I may try that as well. Or....there are case prep centers out there, RCBS comes to mind. I may buy one of those in the near future.
Primer Flash Hole Deburrer: Same as above, I use the handheld model (like a screwdriver) but may upgrade to a case prep center.
Case Lube: I use a bath towel on the bench, and use RCBS case slick. I may swap to Hornady one shot someday, but the case slick has been working well for me
SWAGE tool: I am now using the Dillon Super Swage. This is only after I cracked two of the RCBS ones. The Dillon is superior in design, it is STOUT and makes quick work of this awful task.
OAL Gage: I own both the straight and curved models from Hornady. I also have the modified cases for the calibers I load for as well. This is a good tool...but it is a painful task. I only use it once a year to get a measurement to the lands on my 80 grain loads.
Concentricity checker: I have the Hornady model. It works well and proved a point to me. Unecessary purchase, due to the reputable dies and toolhead mods I have performed. But....it is still a good confidence checker. It will also correct concentricity, if you are interested in that.
Neck Turner: I have the Hornady model as well. I have never used it. Someday, maybe this winter, I will prep my 600 yard line brass and turn necks, but I am in no rush to do so.
Loaded Ammo case gages: I use the Dillons and have a JP Enterprises one for my .308. Honestly, if one uses the Hornady comprator to set the sizing die up properly, a case gage is not needed. I rarely use em anymore. The pistol stuff I would check each round in the case gage prior to placing the round in the box for a match.
I think I have pretty much covered the meat and potatos of my setup. Again....one can most definitely load match grade long range ammo on a progressive press. John Whidden does it as do many others I know. There are plenty of people that would CRINGE at the thought of using a progressive press for making match grade rifle ammo. That is OK as well. For me...my time is worth a lot, and I would rather spend that time doing something else.
I have been contemplating the procurement of an annealer. Still on the fence about that. Most of my ammo is shot out of a semi auto, and the brass life is realistically 3-4 loadings. Annealing would breath a little more life into the brass, but....is it worth it? Again....something I am thinking about.
So.....that is where I am at currently with my setup. Figured I'd share an update, turned into a novel. LOL
R/
Chris
I'm jealous of all your reloading toys, lol!
Chris, thanks for posting the list of the gear you use. That is just what I needed as a relatively new shooter. It's is almost impossible to keep up with a new shooting habit without reloading but at least now I can get started gathering the gear to make it happen. You can expect that I will have some questions once everything starts to come together.
Thanks!
I'm the OP of this post, and things have changed some.
I did buy that annealer, not sure if the juice was worth the squeeze with that procurement. It "may" be someday when I switch to a match rifle versus a semi automatic service rifle. Annealing's #1 benefit is that it will give one more consistent neck tension. Not sure one realizes that benefit in the violent semi automatic action of the AR. Also, the slow prone stages where we guide the round into the chamber with our finger...it may help some, but....that target inclusive of the 10 and X ring is 2 MOA. 2 MOA gets you a perfect score. Think the annealing effort gets lost in the noise there.
Still using the same Dillon 650 with the Hornady powder drops. I have been using TAC powder exclusively the past 2+ years as it meters phenomenally.
I buy in bulk (like 3K at a time) new primed brass. This cuts down the brass prep time (cleaning/sizing/trimming etc etc) significantly.
I load ALL my ammo progressively now, having 2 shooters in the house sort of forced my hand on that.
It ALL will hold the X ring (1 MOA or less).
I did see recently that the 650 is no longer offered by Dillon, they still support the 650 warranty wise....but the 750 is its replacement.
Knowing everything I know now....would I buy a Dillon 650 or 750 again? A resounding yes!
It has paid for itself in the amount of ammo I process on it.
R/
Chris