I have a KD shoot coming up in Oregon and I'm trying to choose which rifle to use. The choices are:
M1 Garand CMP Special
FN-49 (.30-06 loaded via stripper clips)
Chinese Type 56 SKS
AR-15 SBR with 11.5" barrel
I have plenty of ammo/magazines/stripper/enbloc clips as applicable. My preference is to use the FN-49 just because it's something different; any thoughts?
Quote from: modeler on March 03, 2015, 10:42:34 PM
I have a KD shoot coming up in Oregon and I'm trying to choose which rifle to use. The choices are:
M1 Garand Special
FN-49 (.30-06 loaded via stripper clips)
Chinese Type 56 SKS
AR-15 SBR with 11.5" barrel
I have plenty of ammo/magazines/stripper/enbloc clips as applicable. My preference is to use the FN-49 just because it's something different; any thoughts?
Its hard to argue against the Garand.
Garand the way to go. But you be King if you did it with sks. Not that sks it's self can't but rifleman to gun interface is problem.
Great question.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/Smileys/newsmileys/wink.gif
Shoot the rifle that you shoot best and have the best data for.... the one you best understand the trajectory and sights. Considering the decades and decades of proven data available on the M1, that would be my personal choice.
Bring a backup rifle, just in case Murphy shows up. ;)
Have a great time!
Rusty
Somehow I figured you would all say the Garand... But it's so common. It might be nice to use something different. Not that I can find a whole lot of info on the FN-49, there were only a few thousand of them made. And the sights are the ski-ramp style for different ranges, not sure how accurate that would be.
Quote from: modeler on March 04, 2015, 12:22:44 AM
Somehow I figured you would all say the Garand... But it's so common. It might be nice to use something different. Not that I can find a whole lot of info on the FN-49, there were only a few thousand of them made. And the sights are the ski-ramp style for different ranges, not sure how accurate that would be.
Only 1 way to find out.
I have yet to find a gun that can't shoot with right ammo.
Quote from: viperrt1 on March 04, 2015, 12:27:19 AM
I have yet to find a gun that can't shoot with right ammo.
It's going to be Greek HXP for the Garand and the FN, steel cased TulAmmo for the SKS and American Eagle for the AR.
Greek ok if you year match. Best if you can lot match. For garand 2moa no problem
Don't know with fn just going have try.
Tula really probably the worse ammo out there. But super cheap so ya. Ppu, S&B, for brass ammo or golden bear, Hornaday for steel. All 4 will do under 2moa in mini 30. Hornaday being best of the lot. So see what your sks likes.
Eagle ok AR run most brass ammo fine. That should do 2moa
Just make sure the sling does not pull on the barrel. That will change POI.
Being all 4 gun should be able to do 2 moa it's on you.
Sorry I missed the SBR 11.5 223 at 400 yards urmmaaa
If I was your garand or fn. Sks could do it but sks sling on side and sighs are ok but not match grade by anyone's standards. SKS will make you work for it.
The AR SBR that going be a pistol. So lot bullet drop. So I stay away
Pick whatever you want. I shoot to 400 with a 10-22. 20 moa base and a decent scope. Any centerfire will.do the trick if you do your part!
Quote from: grunt soldier on March 04, 2015, 01:03:02 AM
Pick whatever you want. I shoot to 400 with a 10-22. 20 moa base and a decent scope. Any centerfire will.do the trick if you do your part!
Don't take it as personal shot. Will all due respect 400 yards AQT with 10/22 would be sight to behold.
The best rifle is the one you have in your hands.
Quote from: viperrt1 on March 04, 2015, 01:05:32 AM
Quote from: grunt soldier on March 04, 2015, 01:03:02 AM
Pick whatever you want. I shoot to 400 with a 10-22. 20 moa base and a decent scope. Any centerfire will.do the trick if you do your part!
Don't take it as personal shot. Will all due respect 400 yards AQT with 10/22 would be sight to behold.
Might be sir but it is far from impossiblE. Myself and several who shoot far better than me have done it. Vette. Yellowhousejake. Ol huff. Its definitely doable especially if you follow the fundamentals.
Doubt all you want but until you show up in Indiana with your centerfire you probably won't know different.
Hell vette shoots out to 500 plus with his cz 22. Granted its a custom base but I have seen it with my eyes
Like I was trying to say don't take it personally. That just impressive claim is all.
I think be hell cool to see. Custom rifle or not.
But hey I shoot sub moa with mini 30 so I have been there with impressive claims.
So I feel you there.
Internet looses bit of emotion in statements.
Why not shoot the FN-49?
But if I were you, I'd bring the Garand too, just in case... O0 It's common for a reason. It works.
The SKS can do it better than most people think, but you'll be fighting the sights. Same with an SBR AR-15 -- without optics, personally I wouldn't have a chance. Just not enough sight radius for these eyes.
You've received some sage advice. Hard to think I can add anything to this discussion, but that's never stopped me in the past.
In my opinion, the rifle you should take to ANY event is the one you know and can properly manipulate quickest, easiest, and SAFEST. If you've not practiced loading 2 rounds into a Garand before, you might want to try that in your living room with some dummy rounds before heading out to the range. This is easy enough with time on your side, but when you're on the clock ... well, things have a way of changing.
Same is true of any rifle that doesn't load with a detachable box magazine.
Then again, if all you're after is some real distance dope on your rifle, then bring them all and a good data book for each rifle.
It's less about the rifle, and more about your skill. Bring whichever one you like.
Take the M1 and the FN. SBRs are silly at range, and SKS's really lack in a lot of areas. Once you've made KD rifleman, play with the SKS if you want a challenge.
The test was designed for the M1, and there's not that many out there. I have yet to see more than one on the line at a time.
Take the Garand! The timed stages will really force you to improve your rifle handling skills. By the end of the shoot you'll be loading 2 round clips with ease and confidently manipulating the bolt while avoiding "M1 Thumb". Apply your standard come ups and you'll be good to go!
Quote from: viperrt1 on March 04, 2015, 01:05:32 AM
Quote from: grunt soldier on March 04, 2015, 01:03:02 AM
Pick whatever you want. I shoot to 400 with a 10-22. 20 moa base and a decent scope. Any centerfire will.do the trick if you do your part!
Don't take it as personal shot. Will all due respect 400 yards AQT with 10/22 would be sight to behold.
Ive never done a AQT with my 22 (outside of 25 meter), but I can keep them all on a torso target at 500 yds. A torso target is 18x36, so thats roughly 3 moa wide, and 7 MOA tall. So figure in the 4 moa standard, and I probably would not qualify (most miss's are on the elevation side due to match ammo still being pretty inconsistent at that range) but I would knock on its door
The question is, will a 22 pentrate the paper at that range? It pretty much scratch's steel.
A 22 will penetrate paper at 300 and 400. The NRA used to hold 300 yard prone smallbore matches. We sometimes shoot a 200 yard smallbore match locally.
Quote from: jmdavis on March 04, 2015, 12:27:03 PM
A 22 will penetrate paper at 300 and 400. The NRA used to hold 300 yard prone smallbore matches. We sometimes shoot a 200 yard smallbore match locally.
Good to know. Ive never shot anything besides steel north of 200.
I might take my CZ to a KD shoot this year just to hear the people tell me if cant be done.
Don't spend so much time worrying about the rifle. Bring the one your shoot the best.
Believe me, if it were as easy as "which rifle" to make Riflemen, our job would be boring. It is rarely the hardware...it is almost always the software that is the problem.
I ask one thing let us know how it goes. Good bad or ugly
Looks like Military Arms Channel did a video on my question a few months ago.
http://youtu.be/np31PVyZ1Gk
And a 100 yard range video:
http://youtu.be/g-flsGj0stQ?t=11m20s
Nice
Quote from: Big John on March 04, 2015, 09:17:33 AM
Take the M1 and the FN. SBRs are silly at range, and SKS's really lack in a lot of areas. Once you've made KD rifleman, play with the SKS if you want a challenge.
The test was designed for the M1, and there's not that many out there. I have yet to see more than one on the line at a time.
Sage words of advice right there.
Do it first with a rifle set up for those distances. Then, after you've done it with one, try it with the others.
There's nothing wrong with a 20" or even 14.5" or 16" AR getting it done, but I'd say that 11.5" has an even shorter sight radius, and would be a problem, unless you're using optics.
I have some friends that have consistently gotten torso hits out to 800 meters, with a 14.5" AR. Using optics (ACOG or Aimpoint CompM4 red dot) of course. On the range, and for real.
Quote from: Nickle on March 08, 2015, 10:25:11 PM
Sage words of advice right there.
Do it first with a rifle set up for those distances. Then, after you've done it with one, try it with the others.
There's nothing wrong with a 20" or even 14.5" or 16" AR getting it done, but I'd say that 11.5" has an even shorter sight radius, and would be a problem, unless you're using optics.
I have some friends that have consistently gotten torso hits out to 800 meters, with a 14.5" AR. Using optics (ACOG or Aimpoint CompM4 red dot) of course. On the range, and for real.
Don't get hung up on the short barrel having a shorter sight radius, it has a carbine length gas system (and sight radius) just like (almost) every other 16" barrel AR out there. No difference in sight radius.
My hang up was accracy out to 400 with sbr not sight. 223 was intend to be at lest 20 inch. Will 16 get done at 400 yes. But much shorter the fps keep falling and accracy will to.
Like winchester 3030. 20 inch was very accurate. But the 16 and 14 where not so much and had lot unburned powder.
But sbr have there place. But not idea for target/marksmanship
In the fall of 2009 Boltgun71 who was both an AS instructor and a Military Marksmanship instructor ran an Squad Designated Marksman class for a unit of the SCNG. That class combined US Army Marksmanship Unit SDM Training with Appleseed training. In the end the shot for familiarization out to 700 yards. Using M4's with Acogs, the first round hit probability for the students on E type Silhouettes was 70% at 700 yards.
The military M4 is a 14.5" inch barrel.
I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.
Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.
Quote from: viperrt1 on March 10, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.
Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.
I agree with your last part completely. You absolutely can not do the stuff talked about in this thread unless you have a very strong grasp on the fundamentals. very very good point sir.
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy, along with the Appleseed event(s) you have attended and the name of the shoot boss, and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticle types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.
Quote from: viperrt1 on March 10, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.
Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.
These were not experts, they were selected from an Artillery Unit of the SCNG that had been repurposed. The 5 day program that they went through used only 300 rounds and the end results were excellent. These troops were taught the fundamentals, they applied the fundamentals and they proved the accuracy of the M4 system to 700 yards and beyond.
The best advice that any of us could give the Original poster is for him to shoot the rifle he shoots best. That's been said several times. KD is not a coolness test or a beauty contest. It is the practical application of the laws of physics.
Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticule types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.
Pm sent
QuoteIt is the practical application of the laws of physics.
Exactly - that and a little bit of "voodoo". ^-^
I know for a fact:
Wind doesn't matter until it makes 10MPH+ / full value and you are at 300 yards or more.
If I zero at 25M - I will be high at 100 yards and on again at about 300.
If the "mirage" is boiling straight up - means zero value wind, but target is slightly lower than it appears.
If I zero an A2 (20", chrome-lined, 1:7 fixed carry handle) at 100 yards with 69gr HPM and want to go to 200, I add two clicks on BDC drum. to 300, I add 3 more, to six hundred, I add 17 more.
How do I know this? Did I read it on the internet? Nope. Shot KD over and over, recording DOPE all the way. O0
Quote from: modeler on March 08, 2015, 10:59:47 PM
Don't get hung up on the short barrel having a shorter sight radius, it has a carbine length gas system (and sight radius) just like (almost) every other 16" barrel AR out there. No difference in sight radius.
Correct.
If you're using optics, sight radius is irrelevant.
The barrel length itself is irrelevant.
The position of the front sight is very relevant.
Not saying it can't be done with a sight radius shorter than "carbine length", just saying it's a little harder, if and only if, you're using iron sights.
Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments
PM sent. Thanks!
It's looking to be a wet weekend, so figure that into your plans. Last year the wood on my already tight Garand swelled up in the rain and it stopped cycling. I plan to bring a Garand and an AR, and there should be plenty of opportunity to shoot both. Based on what I've seen around the region recently, I expect to see several Garands, a couple of M1A's, probably a SCAR or two, some AR's in various calibers, and maybe some FN's.
I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.
Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?
Quote from: modeler on March 17, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.
Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6_o-5vOm-A
Try it with dummy rounds and practice at home until you get it down.
When you load the 2-round clip into the rifle, you need to hold the slide back with the edge of your hand while you seat the clip in the bottom of the magazine.
George
You twist the two rounds relative to each other at about a 90-degree angle. The case isn't quite straight-walled so this cams them against each other, and friction against the sides of the clip will hold both rounds in place. Then when you put it into the magazine, the follower pushes up on the rim side and bring them back in line where it belongs. http://www.spirainternational.com/pictures/garandclip.jpg
Or you get lazy, like I did, and get a couple of these: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1895311304/aggressive-engineering-m1-garand-clip-steel-parkerized
But for most people it's not that difficult. Depends on how worn your clips are. New production clips should be able to do this pretty easily.
Quote from: George Hacker on March 17, 2015, 12:52:24 AM
Quote from: modeler on March 17, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.
Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6_o-5vOm-A
Try it with dummy rounds and practice at home until you get it down.
When you load the 2-round clip into the rifle, you need to hold the slide back with the edge of your hand while you seat the clip in the bottom of the magazine.
George
Thanks!
I ended up going with the M1 Garand for the whole weekend. I learned a lot and became much more comfortable with it's operation with my marksmanship improving as the weekend went along. Special thanks to TheSquirrelPatrol for all the help with sighting and answering general Garand questions. My shoulder was pretty sore by Saturday evening so I stopped by Bi-Mart and got a slip-on buttpad, which made the gun much (much!) more comfortable to shoot on Sunday. After this weekend's shoot I think I'll be making the Garand my primary target rifle.
For anyone searching and seeing this thread in the future: If you're going to take a Garand to an Appleseed shoot be sure you have 5 and 2 round clips with you! Loading less than 8 rounds with a full-sized clip is possible but not easy and can end up costing you precious seconds on the timed shoots.
Looking forward to next Spring's KD shoot!
Modeler,
It was a pleasure watching you shoot the Garand all weekend. The sound of a .30 caliber rifle is much more satisfying than just listening to ARs all weekend.
By Sunday, it did look like you were getting very comfortable running the Garand and your grouping was very nice.
Don't forget about this summers KD event. There will be a one day KD event on July 16th. AS was able to get use of the range on this day, as it is a normal long distance day at their club, and the day corresponds with the Camp Perry match week. Since all of their normal long distance guys will be at Camp Perry, they give AS the range for the day. There will be no instruction during this event, it will all be just full distance KDs.
Quote from: Prescott on March 23, 2015, 02:37:50 PM
Modeler,
It was a pleasure watching you shoot the Garand all weekend. The sound of a .30 caliber rifle is much more satisfying than just listening to ARs all weekend.
By Sunday, it did look like you were getting very comfortable running the Garand and your grouping was very nice.
Don't forget about this summers KD event. There will be a one day KD event on July 16th. AS was able to get use of the range on this day, as it is a normal long distance day at their club, and the day corresponds with the Camp Perry match week. Since all of their normal long distance guys will be at Camp Perry, they give AS the range for the day. There will be no instruction during this event, it will all be just full distance KDs.
Thanks for the kind words Prescott. I know about the KD shoot in July and the one in September (Vale?), but I'm headed to Alaska in early May for a summer of guiding and salmon fishing and won't be back until October. There's a KD shoot in Idaho on Halloween, but missing Halloween is like missing Christmas as far as my wife is concerned. There's one in California, but I don't go to California $$-0
I'll keep practicing and get things ironed out and will be back at next Spring's KD shoot at Douglas Ridge!
Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticule types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.
PM sent