Value this data as you please.
Interesting.
I wonder what the factual numbers would have been if Remington Golden Bullets were included?
How do feel about this numbers? I know some times I revisit test to check.
More asking about 2+ inch group.
It maybe I know 22lrs are picky guns and ammo.
Was that 2" or 2moa?
Error 404, units not clear.
All of the numbers represent MOA, benchrest with a scope. The 5 groups of 5 was chosen to help average out "good" or "bad" groups. Each number is an average of 25 rounds. What I found was consistency. The CZ 452 was "always" better. Federal Ammunition was "always" a poor performer. I am satisfied with the numbers.
I used what 22lr I could get. The Smith and Wesson was a used rifle, but a new barrel. All other rifles were new or like new. This data, of course, is only from my rifle. The data is only my conclusion.
My agenda was to find a better rifle/ammo combination for AQT and CMP rimfire. I share this information freely because, even though I am competitive, I believe in our cause. I want to see participants on the line succeed. I do not want to give a struggling student a rifle/ammo combination that is less capable of 4MOA.
The CZ 452 is a bolt action, you have to break position after every shot. Hard to do in 55 seconds even for the experienced shooter. But .64 MOA is less than 3/8ths of an inch at 50 yards! And that is an average! This is a rifle that will put five rounds into the same hole!
The Anschutz and Smith & Wesson have modern features so that the rifle can adjust to the shooter and not the other way around.
I will trade/sell the Ruger and Smith & Wesson.
The CZ 512 and Anschutz will be used hard (think 25 AQT's each) in the spring snow and mud to see how they perform in the real world with time and use.
O0
Nice work
Its the reason you should always check load and put it in the data book for each rifle.
Some of the rounds in your testing did worse or better than in mine but it was for a completely different set of rifles too.
One question did you shoot each clean bore or just shoot each type in order. I have found that the lubricate from the different bullet coatings will cause difference in the next batch tested. Making the rounds shoot better or worse untill the prior bullet lube was shot out of the bore and the current ammo had for lack of a better term 'had itself at home' in the barrel.
I have a hard time believing bulk Winchester is better than federal. In my experience it's the last accurate bulk pack I have, only my kids shoot it now.
I'd like to see a comparison of a design contest rifle and standard 10-22. At least with my two, the 50th is a good bit more accurate. A comparison between the 10-22 and marlin 795 would also be interesting.
Thanks. I enjoy seeing people post up results like this.
The performance of Federal ammunition was the most surprising.
These are only my results.
I did not clean the bore and I did not shoot in any particular order. This project was started a year or two ago when I noticed my AQT scores becoming erratic.
I believe any result from cleaning would have been negligible. I did not see any significant inconsistencies. Or I was consistently inconsistent. ;D
The more numbers in an average, the less affect any individual number has. I rarely found 4 groups that were "good" and then a "bad" group or vice versa. 14 types of ammunition, 5 groups each = 70 groups of 5 per rifle. The Ruger 10/22 and S&W almost never shot sub-moa. The CZ's almost never shot above 2MOA.
Very few (like 1 of 500) were discounted as flyers.
I did start each day with 10 rounds to "clear" the barrel.
IMHO, I have found "cleaning" or "breaking in" a barrel to not be as important as the many think it is.
IMHO, it is possible to outshoot your rifle. I believe shooting a 250 AQT is possible, but I could not get beyond 230's without a stringent look at the equipment.
The one thing that jumps out at me most is something I've also concluded in multiple rifles. It's really hard to beat the accuracy/value of CCI ammo in any rifle. I've also experienced far fewer feeding problems and I can run more rounds through between cleanings. As far as the Marlin vs Ruger, I'm convinced the Marlin (out of the box) has a more accurate barrel, but is more prone to function issues in the long run. I have 2 Marlins (one has a target barrel) and both are finicky. Neither will cycle "standard" or subsonic ammo reliably. The Ruger action is much more durable, easier to maintain and will still cycle through 100s of rounds with standard velocity ammo. (The Marlins start having problems after 100 rounds of CCI or as few as 50 rounds of other crap ammo. More if you keep the feed ramp clean.) I get the best groups from the Ruger with CCI standard velocity ammo (1070 fps).
Funny, my marlin ran flawlessly through a ~400-500 round count weekend with minimags. It had a one dud per 40 round rate with fed champion bulk pack tho.
Nvm, see you were talking about sv now.
Really interesting results. Thanks for sharing. The cheap Aguila in the CZ452 really stands out! The CZ512 looks like a real winner as well. The Anschutz was a bit of a surprise to me as this same model by ISSC is supposed to be a real dog, so Anschutz must have really upgraded the barrel.
I'm wondering, is the Anschutz suitable for CMP rimfire sporter or is it too heavy to scope? Are the irons peep or blade?
BTW, at shot show CZ announced a new tactical 512 with a completely redesigned and better trigger, which seems the only significant weak point of the current model. Should be out in the summer.
Anybody have direct experience comparing CCI mini-mag HP's to CPRN's?
Quote from: stoneknives on February 08, 2015, 04:58:18 PM
I have found that the lubricate from the different bullet coatings will cause difference in the next batch tested. Making the rounds shoot better or worse untill the prior bullet lube was shot out of the bore and the current ammo had for lack of a better term 'had itself at home' in the barrel.
Agree, I might have seen this. But you had to be looking for it. You are probably a more experienced shooter than I am.
Quote from: Bluesteel on February 08, 2015, 05:41:35 PM
Anschutz must have really upgraded the barrel.
I'm wondering, is the Anschutz suitable for CMP rimfire sporter or is it too heavy to scope? Are the irons peep or blade?
BTW, at shot show CZ announced a new tactical 512 with a completely redesigned and better trigger, which seems the only significant weak point of the current model.
Anschutz MSR RX-22 weighs 7lbs 0 oz. with 10 rnd mag empty, no sights, no sling.
I think the CMP weight restriction of 7 1/2lbs. will be hard if not impossible to meet. Peep sights.
CZ 512 had the best trigger of the group. The Ruger trigger was noticeably the worst.
Agreed about the CZ 512 set-up. A tactical set-up with adjustable length of pull, cheek comb and picatinny would be the ultimate "box" AS rifle.
I haven't owned the CZ 512 very long, but my first impressions are that it is a completely "better 10/22", except for the narrow magazine/well.
Agrivere's article "Six Ways Your Rifle is Hurting Your Scores" is spot on IMO.
Look at his MOA's, very comparable.
http://www.rimfireessentials.com/Six-Ways-Your-Rifle-is-Hurting-Your-Scores-Part-1_b_4.html
Quote from: Three'oEight on February 08, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
The one thing that jumps out at me most is something I've also concluded in multiple rifles. It's really hard to beat the accuracy/value of CCI ammo in any rifle. I've also experienced far fewer feeding problems and I can run more rounds through between cleanings. As far as the Marlin vs Ruger, I'm convinced the Marlin (out of the box) has a more accurate barrel, but is more prone to function issues in the long run. I have 2 Marlins (one has a target barrel) and both are finicky. Neither will cycle "standard" or subsonic ammo reliably. The Ruger action is much more durable, easier to maintain and will still cycle through 100s of rounds with standard velocity ammo. (The Marlins start having problems after 100 rounds of CCI or as few as 50 rounds of other crap ammo. More if you keep the feed ramp clean.) I get the best groups from the Ruger with CCI standard velocity ammo (1070 fps).
This is my experience also! Rifle and ammo selection is always a matter of finding the best combination of accuracy, reliable function of the rifle, and ease of use for the shooter in the AQT transitions. Based on my experience the best combination I have found is the Ruger 10-22 using CCI Standard Velocity ammo.
Went out to sight in a new scope this afternoon. It is a Centerpoint 2x7 mounted on a stock 10/22 with the exceptions of a auto bolt release and extended mag release. Ammo was Remington Golden Bullet out of a Bucket O' Bullets. Once I had worked the cobwebs out with a couple of groups and tightened up the mount, my groups went from 6MOA to about 4MOA. This was at 25M, slung up, but shooting from a bench. This is the same ammo I shot Rifleman with. I appreciate those who take the time to work these things out, but how accurate does our .22 have to be?
The lube thing is something I noticed many moon ago in my Bullseye day. The Remington Blue Box Target I practiced with groups would tighten noticeably for a couple 5 shot strings if I had been shooting Ely match just prior. Then they would quickly open to normal size. I thought I had discovered something new but the ol'guys said not.
I too have lousy groups with Win 36gr hphv with most of the groups looking more like shotgun patterns. But my daughters newer 10/22 LTR shoots them acceptably well. But then that rifle shoots everything i run through it acceptably well, but nothing outstanding. CCI 40gr plated hv and Federal AutoMatch are my goto ammo's excellent functioning and usually very good accuracy.
When I do my rimfire ammo/rifle test I don't run a clean bore, but before I run a group for real I'll put 10 of what I'm testing through the barrel. Just to prep the barrel thorough with whatever secret recipe gorilla snot the bullet manufacturer uses to coat the rounds.
That why its good to test.
And to answer 'how accurate does a 22 have to be" I'd ask how far out do you want to shoot it.
Many in the Militia were fine with shooting the Kings 68cal ball in the're 75cal barrels. But the marksman we tell stories about knew very well what their firearm, ammo and themselves were about.
I have always preferred the Blazer bulk ammo myself. It seems to run in almost anything and is cheaper than CCI. I know ammo is really rifle dependent but it is no secret that there are a few that will shoot pretty darn good out of just about anything. The fourth AQT out of this little rifle they are amazing shooters for a youth rifle. This rifle shot absolutely everything I put in in it great.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/mudcat47537/Savage%20rascal%20AQT_zps4fktnazu.jpg) (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/mudcat47537/media/Savage%20rascal%20AQT_zps4fktnazu.jpg.html)
Quote from: stoneknives on February 08, 2015, 04:58:18 PMOne question did you shoot each clean bore or just shoot each type in order. I have found that the lubricate from the different bullet coatings will cause difference in the next batch tested. Making the rounds shoot better or worse untill the prior bullet lube was shot out of the bore and the current ammo had for lack of a better term 'had itself at home' in the barrel.
Quote from: stoneknives on February 08, 2015, 09:14:17 PM
The lube thing is something I noticed many moon ago in my Bullseye day. The Remington Blue Box Target I practiced with groups would tighten noticeably for a couple 5 shot strings if I had been shooting Ely match just prior. Then they would quickly open to normal size. I thought I had discovered something new but the ol'guys said not.
So a possibly useful anecdote about that strange bullet lube...
Today I had a shooter using my venerable loaner Marlin 70 LTR. The only ammo he could find was Eley Subsonic. ;D For being the best you could do, that's not half bad...
Except, incredibly, my Marlin choked on it. Towards the end of the day and about 100 rounds, his groups suddenly disappeared completely. At first I thought the sight had come loose, or the action screws, or something, but no. Then I got suspicious of the lube. I ran a boresnake through it, and instantly his groups recovered. :slap:
If that lube can accumulate to the point that it makes rounds keyhole, then I'm not the least surprised that it would affect other rounds if shot as a mixture. Having said that, it appears very easy to clean out.
:sb:
From our own testing, including at various distances in support of our Rimfire KD classes, I would concur that (a) the CZ 452 owns (mine does, anyway), and (b) CCI is where it's at if you had to pick one manufacturer and stick to it. Blazer, SV, and Mini-mag all outperform in their price brackets. Jacob (pennys_dad) has some good numbers on .22 LR ammo that bears out our impressions. I think he's posted them here but not sure where they went... :-X
[/quote]
So a possibly useful anecdote about that strange bullet lube...
Today I had a shooter using my venerable loaner Marlin 70 LTR. The only ammo he could find was Eley Subsonic. ;D For being the best you could do, that's not half bad...
Except, incredibly, my Marlin choked on it. Towards the end of the day and about 100 rounds, his groups suddenly disappeared completely. At first I thought the sight had come loose, or the action screws, or something, but no. Then I got suspicious of the lube. I ran a boresnake through it, and instantly his groups recovered. :slap:
If that lube can accumulate to the point that it makes rounds keyhole, then I'm not the least surprised that it would affect other rounds if shot as a mixture. Having said that, it appears very easy to clean out. [/quote]
I've seen that also. Appleseed certainly will test equipment and ammo and bullet lube with tight chambers and tight bores can equal malfunctions.
Most matches and hunting situations have nowhere near the round count that an Appleseed does.
It looks to me like this AQT may not have been scored correctly....
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/mudcat47537/Savage%20rascal%20AQT_zps4fktnazu.jpg)
I'm getting a higher score than 226...
Vinnie
Quote from: Vinnie on February 09, 2015, 12:15:47 AM
It looks to me like this AQT may not have been scored correctly....
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/mudcat47537/Savage%20rascal%20AQT_zps4fktnazu.jpg)
I'm getting a higher score than 226...
Vinnie
No .30 cal rule, regardless It really doesn't matter as long as it is over 210. Ironically this is my highest open sight AQT score. :slap: I've got about an hour of looking through the irons until my eyes start to hurt and my groups open up. But it is fun to try different types of rifles and experience the difficulties a shooter may be experiencing. It's all fun and the challenge is what I enjoy, I never care if I shoot a 250, in fact I hope I don't. But right and left handed pump, lever, bolt, single shot and nearly any center fire rifle I can get a hold of except for the Mosin. THe Mosin is my lone failure to date. :wb:
Give other rifles a try sometime or yoiur off side maybe it will make you a better instructor when that odd rifle shows up on the line and the shooter needs help.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/
Tons of good info here. There is a link in that article to even more testing that he has done.
Thank you for posting what you have found.
CCI Blazer was my go to but they are hard to find now. I actually dryfire and shoot my pellet rifles now more than anything.
"Give other rifles a try sometime or yoiur off side maybe it will make you a better instructor when that odd rifle shows up on the line and the shooter needs help."
Agree with that statement. I've been shooting semi's a lot but at the last Clearwater shoot I pulled out my Ruger American 10/22 bolty. Picked it up last year when they first came out sighted it shot some Squares and Red Coats (it shoots great) then put it back in the rack. Had a chance to shoot an AQT and I blew it with only a 207. Targets don't lie can you say trigger, trigger and more trigger. First time I've blown an AQT since I took a hat. I've kept that target on the front seat of my truck to motivate me.
QuoteExcept, incredibly, my Marlin choked on it. Towards the end of the day and about 100 rounds, his groups suddenly disappeared completely. At first I thought the sight had come loose, or the action screws, or something, but no. Then I got suspicious of the lube. I ran a boresnake through it, and instantly his groups recovered.
How did it run? In my experience, I've seen signs that suggest Marlin's generally have a tighter chamber and possibly bore. I would expect, if the 70 has the micro-groove barrel as well, that the slower moving sub-sonics would leave much more lube behind and easily fill up the shallow rifling. But the fact that it even ran subsonic surprises me.
That Federal is a bit surprising - the Champ 40gr RN, is generally on par with Blazer which is generally not far off of Mini-mags.
Mudcat, that's some nice shooting - but what happened at the end of Stage 3?
It's a single shot I rushed just a little too much. I got 8 rounds off in both stages 2&3 I'll take it. It's just fun and games.
We should all be able to shoot a Rifleman score on demand with any rifle well just about any rifle laying on the line. Except a Mosin I gate Mosins lol.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on February 09, 2015, 09:53:52 PM
How did it run? In my experience, I've seen signs that suggest Marlin's generally have a tighter chamber and possibly bore. I would expect, if the 70 has the micro-groove barrel as well, that the slower moving sub-sonics would leave much more lube behind and easily fill up the shallow rifling. But the fact that it even ran subsonic surprises me.
It ran OK. Out of 100 rounds the student had 2 FTE's and a doublefeed, but the latter was probably caused by improper magazine seating. Marlins are a little sensitive about that. Both FTE's cleared after working the bolt -- I'm tempted to blame those on the lubricant as well.
It's a very well-loved rifle... first one I ever bought, back in 1993. I didn't keep a tight logbook then but the best I can figure is about 52,000 rounds down the pipe. It does have the microgroove barrel. I've recently replaced the bolt, mainspring is fairly fresh, DIP trigger guard, otherwise the internals are stock. Its favorite ammo is Mini-Mags but it tolerates most ammunition.
Light subsonics like CeeBee or CCI Quiet won't cycle, but the heavy ones will. These were Eley 40 gr hollowpoint rated at 1040 FPS. Decent amount of blowback. Similarly my Marlin runs OK on Remington Subsonic 36 grain, which I've stocked heavily because my CZ 452 particularly likes it.
Not a bad rifle for $99. :cool2: