Thinking about buying a CMP Garand in the next month. Besides choosing the grade, I have a caliber choice to make if I choose the Special grade. They come in either 308 or 30/06... I'd like to shoot this possibly compete in the reduced range service rifle matches at my club.
I would like some opinions on what to choose, good, bad, etc. I have my own ideas, but then, I don't really think like everyone else, and always benefit from other points of view.
Thanks,
Mike.
I stayed with 30/06. But end of the day really there no difference.
The few that say 308 is more accurate is untrue.
308 is just updated 30/06.
I was thinking it might be easier to get 308 in good quality/quantity for target practice and shooting. I also wondered if there was a functional difference between the two in the same platform.
Never know what you might learn if you just ask!
One thing to keep in mind is that during all the ammo shortages over the last seven years, in my experience, stores always had 30/06 on the shelves. Sometimes it was the only ammo they had.
UL
And I already have a 308, while there is a 30/06 sized hole in my safe...some decisions are easier than others I guess...
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
Quote from: jrturbo on January 30, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
I don't believe this is correct. 308 is as issued for navy. I see 308 used all the time in as issued. Hell I see people use brand new Kreiger barrel. So CMP wants butt in chair.
Funny by a paperwork mishap I shot m14 in garand as issued in the western games. So cmp loose to say the least.
Quote from: mjkten on January 30, 2015, 05:38:11 AM
And I already have a 308, while there is a 30/06 sized hole in my safe...some decisions are easier than others I guess...
If it's so hard get both lol :---
Only real benefit to 308 will be surplus ammo. It's newer and will be around longer. But hell I'm still shooting ammo from the 50s. So ya.
All other there equal.
308 uses different chamber and spacer only difference in garand.
Also keep in mind that modern 30-06 is not surplus 30-06.
From what I understand, the following is true.
-5.56x45 is a military version of the .223 Rem. The headspacing is bigger on the military round, the case is thicker, so less powder does more, and there is more power in it. The solution is to use rifles made for 5.56 and step down to .223 if you wish.
-.308 Winchester is a civilian round designed to mimic the ballistic performance of M2 Ball 30-06. This was done with the same bullet, a shorter cartridge, and hotter powder. The 7.62x51 is a military equivalent, with bigger headspacing and thicker case, but has less power than the .308 civilian round. The solution for this situation is to use chambers spaced for 7.62x51 yet can shoot .308 power. The FNAR, M1A, HK91, and I think FAL can do that.
-.30-06 was revamped with the .308's hotter powder into a modern hunting load. This is different than surplus 30-06 in terms of power, as it it has much more. Do not run modern 30-06 in a Garand less you bend the op rod. Run surplus ammo, or get a gas valve to replace the gas block bolt.
Short version: running a Garand may not help you in an ammo shortage unless you have an adjustable gas plug to take advantage of modern 30-06.
Quote from: Big John on January 30, 2015, 12:07:26 PM
Also keep in mind that modern 30-06 is not surplus 30-06.
...-.30-06 was revamped with the .308's hotter powder into a modern hunting load. This is different than surplus 30-06 in terms of power, as it it has much more. Do not run modern 30-06 in a Garand less you bend the op rod. Run surplus ammo, or get a gas valve to replace the gas block bolt.
Short version: running a Garand may not help you in an ammo shortage unless you have an adjustable gas plug to take advantage of modern 30-06.
Good point John. Here is the one I have: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/777146/schuster-dcm-adjustable-gas-plug-with-wrench-m1-garand-steel-parkerized?cm_vc=ProductFinding They work well. One of our Kentucky cadre took a deer with modern ammo in his Garand this past season.
UL
Quote from: viperrt1 on January 30, 2015, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: jrturbo on January 30, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
I don't believe this is correct. 308 is as issued for navy. I see 308 used all the time in as issued. Hell I see people use brand new Kreiger barrel. So CMP wants butt in chair.
Funny by a paperwork mishap I shot m14 in garand as issued in the western games. So cmp loose to say the least.
Had you placed highly you would have found them not nearly so lax. A new barrel is perfectly legal for a JCG match as long as it matches the GI profile. Obviously an M14 is not. :). I actually never asked about 308 Garands but I would guess they would be fine.
They really don't care all that much what you shoot, as you observed. If you place highly, however, a rifłe inspection takes place immediately. Trigger weight, correct sights, no bedding, etc. Most accuracy enhancements on a Garand can be spotted easily, and I'm sure they would DQ a winner who shot an illegal rifłe. Those matches are a blast to shoot!
Quote from: Agrivere on January 30, 2015, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: viperrt1 on January 30, 2015, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: jrturbo on January 30, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
I don't believe this is correct. 308 is as issued for navy. I see 308 used all the time in as issued. Hell I see people use brand new Kreiger barrel. So CMP wants butt in chair.
Funny by a paperwork mishap I shot m14 in garand as issued in the western games. So cmp loose to say the least.
Had you placed highly you would have found them not nearly so lax. A new barrel is perfectly legal for a JCG match as long as it matches the GI profile. Obviously an M14 is not. :). I actually never asked about 308 Garands but I would guess they would be fine.
They really don't care all that much what you shoot, as you observed. If you place highly, however, a rifłe inspection takes place immediately. Trigger weight, correct sights, no bedding, etc. Most accuracy enhancements on a Garand can be spotted easily, and I'm sure they would DQ a winner who shot an illegal rifłe. Those matches are a blast to shoot!
Your right if I won they might have cared but I think they only inspect the winner. I was 3ed in garand unlimited they just said good job. And hardy hand shake. The did trigger weight day be for and gave little yellow sticker.
I know few of the winners. They look them over but nothing to close. Mostly because end of day it's the shooter not the gun.
All top guns will clear x ring. But was there perfect score no.
But that way she goes. I'm sure if someone jumps up and down and calls foul they look at it harder.
Quote from: viperrt1 on January 30, 2015, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: jrturbo on January 30, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
I don't believe this is correct.
308 M1s are most definitely NOT Garand Match legal. You can take that to the bank.
CMP Games Rulebook Section 4.2.2
QuoteAs-issued M1 Garands must be chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. No rifles chambered for the 7.62mm NATO (.308) cartridge may be used.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf
The only CMP match in which 7.62x51 M1 rifles are legal are Excellence In Competition (Leg) Matches. They are also legal as a service rifle in NRA Highpower Rifle.
When it comes to NRA and CMP competition, It doesn't matter what the services issued. All that matters is what the rulebook says.
NM
You can shoot the .308 M1 under the Unlimited class. Though it is actually pretty darn limited.
Unlimited Garand Match for M1 Garands that do not comply with Rule
4.2.2, but comply with Rule 5.2.6.
4.2.2
4.2.2 As-Issued M1 Garand
The rifle must be a Caliber .30 U. S. M1 Garand rifle that was issued by the
U.S. Armed Forces and be in as-issued condition. A Caliber .30 M1941
Johnson rifle or a U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 M1 may be fired in matches
designated as M1 Garand matches.
Rifles must be as issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, with standard stock
and sights.
Trigger pulls may not be less than 4.5 lbs., except that the M1941
Johnson may have a trigger pull of not less than 3.5 lbs.
National Match (NM) Garands with synthetic bedding or NM sights may
not be used. NM rifles with no synthetic bedding or no NM sights or
other rifles with NM operating rods or NM gas cylinders may be used.
The use of shims made of any material in the action and barrel bedding
areas of the stock is prohibited.
As-issued M1 Garands must be chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. No
rifles chambered for the 7.62mm NATO (.308) cartridge may be used.
M1C and M1D Garands, with telescopes detached, are considered asissued
M1 Garands, provided that they comply with other requirements
for As-Issued M1 Garands. Cheek pads may not be used on these or
other M1 Garands.
M1 Garand or M1941 Johnson rifles may not weig
5.26
5.2.6 Unlimited M1 Garand
An Unlimited M1 Garand is an M1 Garand-type rifle that does not fully comply
with Rule 4.2.2 for As-Issued M1 Garands. Unlimited M1 Garands must have
an M1 Garand external configuration, may weigh no more than 10.5 lbs. and
must have a trigger pull of at least 4.5 lbs. Unlimited M1 Garands include, but
are not limited to the following:
National Match M1 Garands or M1 Garands with synthetic bedding or
NM sights. Garands with no synthetic bedding or NM sights, but with NM
operating rods and gas cylinders may be used in the As-Issued Garand
category (Rule 4.2.2).
M1 Garands modified to fire the 7.62 mm NATO cartridge.
M1 Garands with accurizing modifications such as glass bedding, sight
adjustments finer than one minute of angle, modified upper hand guards,
etc.
Commercial, replica or foreign manufactured M1 Garands.
M1 Garands with U. S. Government glass bedding or shims.
The use of cheek-pads on these rifles is not permitted.
Quote from: proneshooter on January 31, 2015, 05:46:57 PM
Quote from: viperrt1 on January 30, 2015, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: jrturbo on January 30, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Keep in mind that if you every want to compete in a John C. Garand as-issued, you will need it to be in .30-06.
I don't believe this is correct.
308 M1s are most definitely NOT Garand Match legal. You can take that to the bank.
CMP Games Rulebook Section 4.2.2
QuoteAs-issued M1 Garands must be chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. No rifles chambered for the 7.62mm NATO (.308) cartridge may be used.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf
The only CMP match in which 7.62x51 M1 rifles are legal are Excellence In Competition (Leg) Matches. They are also legal as a service rifle in NRA Highpower Rifle.
When it comes to NRA and CMP competition, It doesn't matter what the services issued. All that matters is what the rulebook says.
I stand corrected