Please don't get upset if your favorite one isn't listed. These are the ones in which I am interested. It's quite sobering if you're looking for a .308 MBR versus an M1 Garand.
Hey,
Is there any way you can send this over as a PDF file?
I can't access Excell on my computer any longer.
Thanks either way.
CM
Here's the PDF version.
How about this.....
1 solid battle rifle, ten mags, 1000 rounds of ammo...... $2000. Subtracted from your approximate monetary commitment = $7,500 left over.
$7,500 = 25 brand new LTRs or 20 LTRs with 3 bricks of ammo each... or 4 LTRs, travel, food and lodging at 5 AS events, and 20 new Riflemen in your neighborhood.
Not kocking what you're doing, just saying, if you're really looking to "invest wisely" in powering up, think software, not hardware.
And just two more cents..... If I had an extra $10,000 laying around I wouldn't have an M1A with a couple extra Garands to lend to my buddies, I'd have an M1A with Gen 3/4 night vision on top, the best kit (by "kit" I mean your gear and equipment) money could buy, and then matching sets for my two or three best buddies.... all after they'd been to an Appleseed or two, of course!
Given its inferior power and ammunition handling capability, the comparison sheet doesn't say much at all for the M14 derivatives does it.
Give me about 5 M1's and huge pile of ammunition any day ;D
M1 with M2 ball ammo (common issue/surplus ammo) = 152 gr. flat based FMJ round at 2,800 fps muzzle velocity
M1A with M80 ball ammo (common issue/surplus ammo) = 147 grn. boat tail FMJ round at 2,750 fps muzzle velocity
Either will get the job done without being able to tell which is which when they hit something.
However, if you reload your own shells, and you take the time to install an adjustable gas plug on your M1, you can work with heavy bullets and slower burning powders and then the M1 (30.06 cartridge) will strut it's stuff compared to the M1A (.308 cartridge). The adjustable gas plug is a real necessity to keep from damaging your oprod.
I like'em both, but the last year or so the M1 goes on the road with me and the M1A (I've owned for 30 years) stays at the house.
OK, I'm hitting the light switch, and all you guys lurking over here in the dark, bashing M1As, will have to scurry quickly, to get back to Appleseeding!
Actually, the post about putting any extra funds into LTRs is prob the best idea. LTRs will be rifleman-makers, and then the riflemen can decide what MBR to get, if they want one. Remember, ammo prices go up and down, and M1As can be bought used, not new, etc, etc...
[No implied criticism in that first sentence, guys...well, not much, anyways - maybe look on it as a needed-comment by an M1A-lover to maintain emotional equilibrium when dealing with this thread ;D ;D ;D...]
Longjohn,
I'm hurt. You left out one of Longshot's hot-rod SKS's, $550, mags$300, 10,000 rds. ammo$1750.
Really, the best rifle is the one you've got with you 'cause you wouldn't go anywhere without it.
You're an IIT, you have opportunities to SHOOT them all, then make a decision. A high-dollar M1A is worthless if you don't get along with it, and CMP M1 isn't a bargain if you find out you hate en-blocs.
I'm in love with my M1A, but of late I have developed a relationship with the afore-mentioned tricked out SKS.
LS
The slam-firing had me a little jumpy with those. Good point on the M1, or any rifle for that matter.
Quote from: SamD on November 07, 2008, 10:05:04 AM
Given its inferior power and ammunition handling capability, the comparison sheet doesn't say much at all for the M14 derivatives does it.
You are joking, right? ;)
QuoteYou are joking, right?
Actually, no.
I won't get into the doctrinal differences that came up or the logistics issues either.
In my mind the most important consideration is that of Mr. Patrick Henry, a man of much greater intellect than I ,
Quote"The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every one who is able may have a gun."
Given strict comparisons between the two, I'd much rather see all those 6 MILLION M1's out among the citizenry, than the few hundred thousand available M14/M1A.
The M14/M1A has never been as easy a rifle to keep in service as the M1. It was even a royal pain in testing adn development. When the man that developed the base rifle walks off in disgust with the project, I find it hard to loudly champion it. Eventually like ALL service weapons, even the M1, the bugs were worked out of the 14 and it went to being a rifle as opposed to a replacement for everything under the sun from BAR to submachine gun
I'm not an M14/M1A basher, nor an AR basher. I do not believe that our government conspires to adopt inferior weapons. What I believe is that the M1 with it's long history of reliability and much higher availability of parts and weapons, is the better rifle for "everyman". I would really have no issue with "everyman" having an SKS as the preferable weapon.
Until our government adopts the "Swiss system" (which is closer to the military envisioned by our forefathers), adopts and issues a common weapon for everyone, we'll have these little debates of meaningless conclusion.
It's an iceberg, a fun one to talk about, and an easy one to gore the oxen of the world with, but an iceberg none the less.
Face it, If we spent more time with our wives than our rifles, we really, truly wouldn't give a D@mn would we? ;D
Sam
Since this is the Rifle Knowledge Bank, it's the appropriate place to discuss this.
Yes, some of us do believe the M1 Garand is superior to the M14 (including the civilian copies).
I am one of them. I've read up well on the subject, and I tend to agree with Sam. I'll give you some history on the subject. It isn't pretty, but it's pretty much true.
Don't blame me for the content, this is a repetition of what I read about the M14.
The M14's origin was a small calibered, light rifle, to replace the M1, M1918A2 BAR and the M3 SMG. The M14 was such a compromise that it really didn't do as well as any one of the items it was to replace, because it was well, a compromise.
The Army wanted less recoil, and a smaller cartridge, without sacrificing velocity or bullet weight. (See a problem here?) Can't have it both ways.
They wanted a select fire rifle lighter than (or near) the M1, but wanted the stability and function of the M1918A2. (See a problem here?) The M15 was adopted, but never built. A heavy version of the M14, it was determined the M15 wasn't needed. Truth be known, the M60 MG did the job, right up until the M249 SAW was adopted (another piece of equipment that doesn't do it's job well). Look deeper into the subject and the T20 series didn't work so hot either.
They wanted a replacement for the M3 SMG, which finally got replaced when the M4 Carbine was adopted. (Now, how they ever figured a 42" long rifle was going to "replace" an SMG is beyond me.) Yup, we had M3's in the Guard up until about 10 or less years ago. Our Recovery Vehicle (M88A1 and M578) crewmen carried them. I would have been saddled with one, but, I carried an M16A1 until we went to the M16A2, and the M4's were gone by then, so I got an M9 pistol instead.
The M14 was adopted mostly because of a stupid and hide-bound National Armory system (Dr Carten and others). We actually agreed to adopt what became the T48 when the Brit's adopted the 7.62 NATO, but they found a way to rig the trials and conveniently reverse the agreement. For those that don't know what the T48 was, it's an FN/FAL, US version, made by H&R.
Now, I do like my M14 clone, but I absolutely LOVE my M1.
Longjohn,
I have a FAL, M1A, and a Garand (or so). I will bring them to the IBC in Ottawa if you want to try each out. Like everyone else I have my own opinions. Each has it's good points as well as it's detractors. The M1 and the M1A are superior for a Rifleman. You can maintain a solid anchor point (for NPOA ) while manipulating the action, clearing malfs, and or mag / clip changes. For an infantryman who might be "runnin' and gunnin'", the ergonomics of the FAL are nice. Similiar to the AR-15. Trigger hand stays on the grip and off hand does everything else.
As for M1 vs. M1A...box mag vs. enbloc clip. If you feel you will be changing type of ammo (ball, match, AP, tracer, etc) for the task at hand, then the M1A rules. Like was said earlier, unless you do some serious modifications...hit 'em with an '06 or an 308 and then ask them if they felt any difference. Neither will answer.
Let me know if you want to try out the 3. If you're not making the IBC, we can hook up. You're not that far from me.
Comes down to....get one that feels right to you, you're comfortable with it, trust it, and the other costs don't enter into it, really. Not that money isn't an issue, but, how much is your and your families lives worth? Skip a pizza and movie and get what works for you.
EEL
Let's continue the hijack over here... ;D
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4475.msg42844;topicseen#msg42844 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4475.msg42844;topicseen#msg42844)
I'm tellin you guys, the LTR is a formidable battle rifle, especially when you think about the 30 others that'll be out in the field with you for the same price as some of the other options listed above.
slim, I've seen you go from "newbie" to "senior member" - and you get better all the time... 8)