So, I just started building my first AR, and I have some questions. I would like to use this at AS and hope to go to a KD shoot sometime this year.
I bought a Bushmaster lower and flat top upper with BCG from Brownell's, that stuff should be here in a few days.
Barrels and sights, though, have been a little baffling.
Brand name carry handles with A2 sights, like DPMS or High Standard, seem pretty expensive, or dirt cheap with no one being willing to say what brand they are. Is that a good sight system, or should I just get one of the rear sights that goes on the flat top without a carry handle? Is there a difference between cheapo and brand name?
Barrel: I was initially looking at getting a 16" M4 profile barrel assembly from Olympic, but the more reading I did, it started to seem like I might want a longer barrel, like 18", and the rifle length gas system. Does the longer barrel dictate a different rear sight? What I've been reading is that the barrel is what is most important to get right, and be willing to spend money to get a good one. I'm just not sure exactly what a "good one" means! Is there any reason to go for the longer barrel and gas system, especially for KD distances, or is that case being overstated in the articles I've read?
For shooting at 400 yards, do I want heavier bullets, and therefore a different twist rate than 1:9?
Wylde chamber, or regular 5.56?
thanks!
If you read the internet you'll get a host of different things you "must have."
Here's the real deal - You "must have" an AR-15. That's it. Barrel length, sights, bullet weight/twist rate, etc., are all up to you because AR-15s in any configuration are plenty good to get the job done out to 400 yards. Any "debate" over what you need is simply personal preference.
Since this is your first one, build it as cheap as you can and as you shoot it you'll realize what you want (There will be more builds! There are always more builds!) and it's modular enough you can swap out whatever you'd like. Keep an eye on Palmetto State Armory for good deals on everything AR-related.
If you like the 16" M-4 configuration go with that. It's plenty good for Appleseed. Don't sweat the longer gas systems or even worry about bullets/twist. Just buy an AR and shoot it.
My input would be don't skimp on the sights. The no-name sights will be less expensive ($20-30 vs $80-110) but they may not have great internal structure -- e.g., they may variable click values, may not be repeatable, may have soft metal and wear out if you are adjusting a lot.
You don't need to get a carry handle if you don't want it as you can get a rear click adjustable sight alone. If you are going to be shooting with irons for KD, you need a sight that is adjustable for both elevation and windage. Note the BUIS style rear sights are NOT elevation adjustable. True...you can adjust the front but that is not a viable / practical solution for frequent adjustments.
I believe the difference for different barrel lengths means you'll have a different "zero" marking on the rear. I don't recall the differences but a little Google-fu will answer that question. If you have questions on front sights, e.g., the F marked front sight, you can look here http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=329435
Barrel length. I like you choice of 18" RLGS but specifically for 3-Gun. The length and gas system won't do anything for you from an "accuracy" standpoint.
Length = velocity = slightly flatter trajectory...but if you know you come ups, within 400 yards, who cares?
Gas system length -- I like mid length for 16" barrels and RLGS for 18"/20". That has more to do with the recoil impulse and gas pressure curves...they are tapping into lower pressures the longer they are and that effects the mechanical dynamics. If you have a fixed front sight as part of your gas block, then I'd recommend the longest gas system possible but that is because it gives you a longer sight radius. That means more "practical" accuracy because of the relationship of the front and rear sights.
400 yard shooting. I've shot full distance rifleman 4 times with "junk" 5.56 ammo using 55 gr bullets. Within 400 yards, the heavier bullet is not giving you much advantage. The 2 advantages of a heavier bullet are both related to higher ballistic coefficient = better velocity retention at 500+ yards
1) gives flatter trajectory "way out there", and
2) less wind deflection "way out there"
I'm all for 68 and 77 gr bullets in 5.56...but you don't HAVE to have them.
A 1:9 will technically shoot these just fine. I shoot 1:8 and 1:7 in all my rifles...they do fine with 55 gr bullets and handle the 77 gr and higher well.
Wydle chamber or 5.56? Depends. 5.56 chamber will be "more reliable" with all ammo. Wydle technically is supposed to bridge the gap between a tight target chamber and a looser one and handle 223 and 5.56 both. I have both. Both shoot fine.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the idea of chrome line, non-chromed barrels. The Call of Duty kids that have never fired a rifle outside of one range trip where they shot a box will tell you only a chrome lined chamber and barrel are worth anything. Your barrel will melt and corrode if you don't get one...uh, right. No, you don't need chrome lined but also don't listen to the people that say a chrome lined barrel will have terrible accuracy. Not for the shooting we do...there may be a little effect but it is the Indian, not the Arrow. Or....you could just get a stainless steel barrel and have the best of both worlds.
I agree about the carry handle sights being a little puzzling. If you get, say a DPMS national match carry handle for something a little above $100, you know you're getting a good quality set of sights with repeatable clicks at 1/4moa. If you get the cheap sights, you are going to get....who knows? One big difference apart from any quality issue will be that the cheap sights will have larger apertures. One will be ghost-ring sized, and the other will be smaller, but still much larger than the apertures on NM sights. At 400 yards, you might find those big apertures make sight alignment a little less precise. And, again, that's leaving aside the question of whether the clicks will be reliable and repeatable.
The non-carry-handle iron sights I know of for AR's are often specifically back up sights. Like the Magpul ones. I wouldn't want to use back up sights as my main sights. I am sure they're good sights, but if they were meant to be your primary sights, they wouldn't call them back up sights! :-) For an extra few bucks, you can get a good NM carry handle.
And there's a lot to be said for a relatively low power scope instead of iron sights. I haven't gone this route myself, but I am sometimes tempted.
On barrels, I don't really have a lot to say, having little experience with different options. Differences in the gas systems shouldn't make a difference that I can think of. Barrel length will affect sight radius and probably have an impact on your moa click adjustments. It will also affect velocity, of course, but out to 400 yards, known distance, I don't know that there's any serious reason to prefer a longer barrel to a shorter one. But as I said, I'm not the voice of experience here. I shoot 55 grain bullets to 400 in my 1/8 twist 20 inch barrel, with acceptable results. (Any problems I've had so far at 400 yards have been shooter-related, not equipment-related.) I'm eager to get some time to try out some 77grain bullets at 400 yards and see how they do. Because I'm interested in trying out the heavier bullets, I am glad to have a slower twist rate than 1/9. I don't see what you'd be losing by going with 1/8 over 1/9.
Carbine length gas systems require carbine length sights and rifle length gas systems require rifle length sights.
The gas system controls the sight radius as the front sight is typically on the gas block. The barrel length does
not affect the sight radius directly. There are carbine gas systems and barrels, rifle gas systems and barrels, and "mid length" gas systems on, I think, carbine barrels.
If you build a carbine, get an M4 style carry handle. If you build a rifle, get an A2 style carry handle, it's the rear sight elevation/windage clicks that vary, I believe, on the two styles of systems, for the two separate radii.
Of course, a scope won't care.
"Since this is your first one, build it as cheap as you can "
That's what I'm trying to do. I got the lower and upper and BCG pretty cheap, on sale. Trying to stay as cheap as I can so I can have a little larger budget for a good barrel. I'll try to get an adjustable butt stock used somewhere. Got my lower and upper parts kits pretty reasonable. I was surprised by what the carry handle and sight costs, but was thinking that would probably also be a place to spend money on a good one. High Standard costs $129, DPMS costs $99, but the el cheapo ones cost $30? I'm guessing that this is a case of getting what you pay for.
"you could just get a stainless steel barrel and have the best of both worlds."
That's the one I was originally looking at at Olympic Arms. It is a 16" with a carbine length gas system, but it sounded like the longer gas systems were preferable. Not for accuracy, but for cycling and function. I'm totally new to the AR platform, so don't have much practical knowledge to apply. I fired a friend's AR once, in about 1989... :-[
Quote from: Moylan on December 17, 2014, 04:20:00 PM
I'm eager to get some time to try out some 77grain bullets at 400 yards and see how they do. Because I'm interested in trying out the heavier bullets, I am glad to have a slower FASTER twist rate than 1/9. I don't see what you'd be losing by going with 1/8 over 1/9.
Fixed it for you. 1:8 is a faster twist rate than 1:9 (e.g., you're getting 1 revolution of the bullet in 8 inches vs 9).
So, after a few days of scanning around and shopping for barrels and parts, it seems like my best deal is going to be one of the complete barrel assemblies from Olympic Arms. They come with everything forward of the upper, including a standard front sight, which is what I want, and which seemed expensive as a separate part from Brownell's or Midway. I can get a stainless 16" M4 profile, with carbine length gas system for $270 or a 20" stainless barrel with a rifle length gas system for $275. Both are 1:9.
For a 5$ difference, is there any reason to prefer the shorter barrel? I'm not taking it into close quarters urban combat or anything. It's likely to be mainly a range gun and a plinker, and maybe a coyote gun.
Also, I forgot to ask earlier: About the upper receiver vice blocks, is there any reason I couldn't take a couple of chunks of hardwood lumber ( I have a lot of that laying around ) and a router, and just make a set of these? I assume the goal is to hold the receiver steady on all four sides, while torquing the barrel nut. Seems like I could just draw the outline of the receiver onto a couple of pieces of oak, and rout each half out to the right depth, and I'd have saved myself $60.
Thanks again!
Go with the long one for your first build. Longer sight radius is a plus and the felt recoil will be less. (Doesn't really matter about the recoil though since you won't feel much of a difference anyway.)
You can make a vice block. Don't overtighten!
Another option is to put an add on Craigslist or your local gun board and see if anyone in the local area has one you can borrow. Typically this is the type of thing someone buys and then sits on the bench for two or three years. Armorer's tool, too. It's a good way to connect with someone who's done it before and also introduce someone else to Project Appleseed. Plus, guys who have vise blocks, tools and stuff also typically have a "drawer of stuff" they've tinkered with on various builds. I bet you could get a rear sight for fairly cheap or trade something you have for one.
$60 for vise blocks?? Where are you looking?
Nevermind. Get them from palmetto for $15. I had to make a small relief cut in mine to fit the upper I was using. But I certainly wouldn't consider makeing a set of blocks when they can be had cheap.
If you're building this rifle for KD, get the 20" barrel.
Palmetto State Armory makes a good quality carry handle sight for less than some of the ones you're looking at.
I would agree with not going cheap on the sights. I bought a cheap carry handle sight and it had so much lash as to be essentially worthless. IMO the sights are the one thing to NOT go cheap on. I've used cheap barrels and other cheap parts and still had great shooting guns. But if the sights aren't good you'll never know how well it could shoot. Especially considering you bought a flat top upper, I would look at a carry handle sight and think of it as something I'll never get rid of. Even if you sell the rifle, or build more, you can always move a quality carry handle sight from one rifle to another.
The barrel, on the other hand, is a consumable item. It may seem like a long ways away, and depending on how you shoot it may be a long ways away, but barrels wear out and are replaced. I'll share my thoughts on barrels, though like many such things opinions will vary.
The barrel will absolutely affect the accuracy potential of the rifle. A better barrel will shoot more consistently well for a longer period of time. You can look at barrels as generally falling into three tiers.
At the top, you've got the premium barrels from Krieger, Bartlein, Lilja, and a few others. These barrels will cost you the best part of $500. They are absolutely the best you can get. Whether or not it's worth it is your call, but I would probably think not worth it for a first rifle.
In the middle you've got good quality barrels from well known barrel makers. Wilson, Douglas, Criterion, and some others. These are top quality barrels, but they are not (or may not be) air gauged, hand lapped, match grade barrels. In my opinion that's okay. If you can swing the price, this would not be a bad choice. They will run in the $250 to $350 range. Creedmoor Sports for example sells a match grade Criterion service rifle barrel, which is hand lapped and already chambered with a .223 match chamber, for $285. That would be an outstanding barrel choice if you want to spend that much.
If you want to keep the cost below that (IMO not a bad decision whatsoever, especially for a first build), then the next tier of barrels you'll find "everyone else", basically. Keep in mind that most companies in this tier who are selling barrels are buying barrel blanks from a large maker of barrel blanks, and then contouring and chambering them. I wouldn't spend a lot of time fretting over (as an example) a YHM barrel versus a Palmetto State versus a Model 1 Sales barrel. They are probably all ER Shaw blanks, and will probably all shoot about the same, which is not to say they will shoot badly at all. Buy whatever is cheapest that has the features you want.
We could endlessly debate the merits of Wylde chambers, rifle length gas systems, and so many other possible barrel features, but I'll offer my opinion.
Get a barrel with a Wylde chamber. You can shoot both 5.56 and .223 ammo in it, and it give you better accuracy than a NATO chamber. If you're planning to take your rifle into combat, the NATO chamber definitely has it's place (as others have said, it's got more generous tolerances which make it somewhat more reliable), but for most of our purposes, the Wylde chamber is my preference.
If it were me, I'd also get a 20" barrel with a rifle length gas system, and a heavy barrel contour. You'll get a longer sight radius with a rifle length gas system, so that for me is a must. The AR15 sight radius is short enough as it is. Barrel length isn't as big of a deal, if you decide you prefer 18" don't sweat it, but 20" is standard and will give you a bit more velocity. That's about it there. Barrel contour will affect weight a great deal, so be careful there. As a general rule, the heavier contour barrel will shoot more consistently (i.e. it won't change as much as the barrel heats up), and it will be less picky about ammo. It will shoot everything pretty well, but heavy match contour barrels are quite heavy, so keep that in mind. I would also try to shoot for a stainless steel barrel, but honestly it's not a huge deal. If you find a deal on a chrome moly barrel you like, don't sweat it.
I would absolutely get a 1:8 or 1:7 twist. There's just no reason not to. A 1:8 or 1:7 twist will stabilize any bullet you can realistically buy for an AR15. With a 1:9 twist you're pretty much limited to 69 grain and smaller. Yes, a 1:9 twist MIGHT stabilize a heavier bullet, then again it might not.
One barrel source I'd look at it Classic Firearms. I actually just bought some barrels there for some more inexpensive builds I'm doing. They have a 20" heavy barrel with a 1:8 twist and a Wylde chamber for $90. It's chrome moly and not stainless, but it's got everything else I want in a barrel. Haven't installed one yet, but for $90 you can't go wrong. They do have many other barrels, so you can likely find something that will meet your goals. As far as I'm aware these are "Bear Creek" barrels, which means they are probably ER Shaw barrel blanks that are contoured and chambered by Bear Creek. For a first build that ought to be a great barrel.
Hope that helps!
Agrivere
wow! Thanks for all the great information.
Where do I find a gas block/standard front sight that isn't over $100, or needs to be drilled and fitted by an expert? It seems like most of the gas blocks are picatinny style, or low profile for rifles using scopes. Part of what makes the Olympic barrel seem like a good deal is that it comes with the standard front sight already on, and all the other necessary parts. If I could find an affordable, easily installed front sight/gas block, it would open up my barrel possibilities somewhat. There's some really affordable ones on the classic firearms site.
If you're still looking, PSA has 20" complete upper (including upper receiver, front sight base, etc.) for $310
Link: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/12908/category/4233/ (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/12908/category/4233/)
That's only $30 more than the barrel assembly you were looking at through Olympic.
You can even throw in a bcg and charging handle with this deal for $430: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa/5-56-nato-223/20/psa-chf-20-5-56mm-1-7-rifle-length-a2-profile-w-bcg-charging-handle.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa/5-56-nato-223/20/psa-chf-20-5-56mm-1-7-rifle-length-a2-profile-w-bcg-charging-handle.html)
You might be able to do a little better if you look out for a deal for a charging handle and bolt carrier group, but I think it's hard to beat either of these deals. Everything I've seen from PSA has been great quality.
PSA makes good quality stuff, and sells it at reasonable prices--and occasionally sells it at
extremely good prices. However, I think PSA is such an awful company to do business with, that I have decided I will never buy from them again. Last time I dealt with them, I ordered a blemished 16" midlength upper. What I received in the mail was a 14.7" upper. I am very glad that I decided to measure it, because I honestly couldn't just
see that it was too short.
I called them and said, "hello, you folks sent me the wrong upper, so I'd like to arrange for the swap." After a conversation particularly surprising to me for this agent's apparently strong commitment neither to apologize for the error, nor to attempt to be polite or helpful, I was instructed to take a picture of the upper (you see, they wouldn't believe me about it being the wrong upper), and that they would send me a label to send it back. To make a long story a little shorter, it took several more unpleasant phone calls--
none of which involved an agent ever apologizing to me for the mistake or the inconvenience--and several weeks to get my upper back. I had sort of expected they'd at least throw a magazine in the box with it, or a note saying "we're sorry for the mix-up," or something. Nope. Nothing. You might get lucky with them and get the thing you ordered, promptly. But I pity you if you have to try to deal with this company's CS department.
Quote from: SteelThunderFixed it for you.
Oops! Thank you. Brain cramp.
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on December 18, 2014, 01:38:25 PM
Where do I find a gas block/standard front sight that isn't over $100, or needs to be drilled and fitted by an expert?
The one I usually use is the Armalite A2 GUN CLAMP-ON SIGHT KIT. It's part number EU0240MPKIT or EU0240NMPKIT with no bayonet lug or sling swivel. I've used them several times, and they work just fine. Pinning a front sight base has advantages I suppose, but I don't have the equipment to pin them, and nobody makes a cheap 20" upper that's put together the way I want it done, so I generally just use the Armalite FSB. They are seemingly always out of stock, but when I've ordered them it hasn't taken that long to get.
If you go that route keep in mind that's JUST the FSB, and you'll also need to order the small parts. They are:
EU0210 FRONT SIGHT POST (SQUARE) $4.00 EA
EU0231 FRONT SIGHT DETENT $1.15 EA
EU0185 FRONT SLING SWIVEL RIVET $2.00 EA
EU0230 FRONT SIGHT DETENT SPRING $0.50 EA
EU0190 FRONT SLING SWIVEL $2.75 EA
I've been playing around a bit lately with building inexpensive National Match / NRA Highpower / CMP style Service Rifle uppers, and so far they shoot quite well. I use the Armalite FSB on all of them. It works fine, and doesn't require any machining to install.
I've already bought a stripped upper and BCG from Brownell's, so I don't need those parts now. I would consider the $80 18" barrel from Classic Firearms if I could figure out the gas block/front sight thing, and find a reasonable kit for the handguards and associated parts.
Quote from: Agrivere on December 18, 2014, 04:43:33 PM
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on December 18, 2014, 01:38:25 PM
Where do I find a gas block/standard front sight that isn't over $100, or needs to be drilled and fitted by an expert?
The one I usually use is the Armalite A2 GUN CLAMP-ON SIGHT KIT. It's part number EU0240MPKIT or EU0240NMPKIT with no bayonet lug or sling swivel. I've used them several times, and they work just fine. Pinning a front sight base has advantages I suppose, but I don't have the equipment to pin them, and nobody makes a cheap 20" upper that's put together the way I want it done, so I generally just use the Armalite FSB. They are seemingly always out of stock, but when I've ordered them it hasn't taken that long to get.
If you go that route keep in mind that's JUST the FSB, and you'll also need to order the small parts. They are:
EU0210 FRONT SIGHT POST (SQUARE) $4.00 EA
EU0231 FRONT SIGHT DETENT $1.15 EA
EU0185 FRONT SLING SWIVEL RIVET $2.00 EA
EU0230 FRONT SIGHT DETENT SPRING $0.50 EA
EU0190 FRONT SLING SWIVEL $2.75 EA
I've been playing around a bit lately with building inexpensive National Match / NRA Highpower / CMP style Service Rifle uppers, and so far they shoot quite well. I use the Armalite FSB on all of them. It works fine, and doesn't require any machining to install.
That looks like exactly what I need, thanks! And yeah, they're out of stock... :(
I assume that this is also a gas block, right?
Quote
I assume that this is also a gas block, right?
Yup, that it is.
QuoteWhere do I find a gas block/standard front sight that isn't over $100, or needs to be drilled and fitted by an expert?
Fulton also makes these. You just need to know the diameter of the gas block portion of your barrel.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/frontsightbaseforgedpowerwedgewsetscrewswbayolug.aspx (http://www.fulton-armory.com/frontsightbaseforgedpowerwedgewsetscrewswbayolug.aspx)
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on December 17, 2014, 02:51:28 PM
So, I just started building my first AR, and I have some questions. I would like to use this at AS and hope to go to a KD shoot sometime this year.
I bought a Bushmaster lower and flat top upper with BCG from Brownell's, that stuff should be here in a few days.
Barrels and sights, though, have been a little baffling.
Brand name carry handles with A2 sights, like DPMS or High Standard, seem pretty expensive, or dirt cheap with no one being willing to say what brand they are. Is that a good sight system, or should I just get one of the rear sights that goes on the flat top without a carry handle? Is there a difference between cheapo and brand name?
Barrel: I was initially looking at getting a 16" M4 profile barrel assembly from Olympic, but the more reading I did, it started to seem like I might want a longer barrel, like 18", and the rifle length gas system. Does the longer barrel dictate a different rear sight? What I've been reading is that the barrel is what is most important to get right, and be willing to spend money to get a good one. I'm just not sure exactly what a "good one" means! Is there any reason to go for the longer barrel and gas system, especially for KD distances, or is that case being overstated in the articles I've read?
For shooting at 400 yards, do I want heavier bullets, and therefore a different twist rate than 1:9?
Wylde chamber, or regular 5.56?
thanks!
I'll address your issues:
1. Carry handle sights: The major brands are probably going to be good to go although I have never bought one. Beware of the brands made in china. There are lots of them out there and they are inexpensive. I will say that the ones I have seen seem to be well made. I have bought all my carry handle sights off of ebay. I just look for ones that are new and have a Forge Code on the sight. Means that they are true .mil sights.
2. should I just get one of the rear sights that goes on the flat top without a carry handle? LMT makes one that I use on my rifles. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-Tactical-Rear-Sight-p/lmt%20rear%20sight%20l8a.htm. Anything else that looks like it that is not LMT is cheaper and made in china and there is a difference in quality. That advantage to this sight is that it is lighter and if you decide to add a red dot, you can mount it with the BUIS already there. It is also heavy duty enough to use as a stand alone.
3. Ask 20 different Appleseeders and you will get 20 different answers to barrels. It boils down to Mission Drives the Equipment. If you are only going to be doing AS style/competitive style shooting then a longer barrel (with a longer sight radius) will serve you best. If you are building a rifle to use as a GO-TO fighting rifle, then you are better served with a 16 inch. For purposes of accuracy in AS, hunting, competition a match-grade stainless steel is probably better; however, if you are looking for something for hard field use (combat) and longevity then you want to consider a chrome lined barrel. It is said that chrome lining reduces the accuracy of the barrel. Probably true, but I have not seen that much difference between the two in real life. IE: my 20 inch DMR with a PSA CHF CL (a barrel that would send a match shooter into apoplexy) shoots .75 Moa with 69 gr GMM and about that with my 62 grain reloads. Chrome lining (or maybe even ferritic nitriding) probably doubles barrel life and its corrosion resistance is worth it.
4. SHould you spend your money on a quality one? Hell yes. A cheap barrel will cost around 200$ after shipping and fitting. You can get good to best barrels starting at 250$ (or cheaper from PSA when it's on sale). Match grade stainless starts around 300$ One thing: If you are going the Chrome lined (pr ferritic nitriding) route for a fighting rifle then try to get 4150 or better steel. If it is chrome lined (or not) and doesn't say 4150 then it is 4140. Both good steels but there is more shooting life in the 4150 for only a few bucks more typically. Keep in mind that stainless does NOT mean rust free. They rust.
5. Gas system length? Don't sweat it too much. They all work. If you are shooting irons, then you will probably want a rifle length system for the increased sight radius; however, there are 16 inch barrels that have a separate gas block and the front sight at rifle length distances.
6 For shooting at 400 yards, do I want heavier bullets, and therefore a different twist rate than 1:9? 55 grain bullets are adequete out to 600 meters. That being said 69 grain bullets are preferred by match shooters out to 600. I don't know what the interwebz say, but 1:9 has adequetely stabilized everything for me in the 55-69 gr range. If you move up to 77 gr then you may need 1:8, 1:7.7 or 1:7. Most military barrels will come in 1:7 anyway.
7. Wylde chamber, or regular 5.56? Regular 5.56 for reliability, Wylde for accuracy. Either way, I doubt the average shooter (even me) could tell much if any difference. IF you benchrest, handload, set the lead long on the bullet then probably will be able to tell difference.
8. Does the longer barrel dictate a different rear sight? technically yes. If you put carbine rear sight (most if not all carry handles) on a rifle length sight radius then there will be some small distance. How much? Not much. It is close enough for Rifleman's work. Like I said before: I dunno what the interwebz say, but it works well enough for me at full distance.
Here's what I ended up with. My goal was to do this as inexpensively as possible, without getting into chinese made and other cheapo parts. I also wanted to order things that were in stock, and this was all in stock and available. DTI seemed to get good reviews everywhere, and they and Olympic were the only companies who answered my email inquiries and both were very friendly and helpful. So far, with no buttstock, sling or mags, I'm right at $600, which was affordable to me. The nice barrels were just a little, or a lot, out of my financial reach this time around.
Bushmaster stripped lower and High Standard LPK
Brownell's stripped flat top upper and BCG with DPMS forward assist and dust cover and High Standard charging handle
Del-Ton government profile 20" barrel kit, 1:9, no chrome, phosphate finish, rifle gas system and standard handguards
Del-Ton carry handle rear sight and standard front sight
I got some cheap vise blocks off of Amazon; Palmetto State never answered any of my emails, and after reading a lot of bad feedback about their CS, I decided I didn't want to deal with them. My brother has an armorer's wrench, and I already have a lot of punches and other tools. Now I just have to wait for the UPS truck...
Awesome!
A grown man's LEGO set! That is what it is. Give it some time, and you will likely gravitate to one like pictured in Agrivere's photo!
I WISH I had attended a few Appleseeds before I started on my AR style rifle builds. Most of them are now "safe queens".
As of late I have limited myself to only A2 style builds (LEGAL for service rifle competitions).
My A2 in its current config weighs in at 13.5 pounds!
On your upper vise, whatever you choose to use, make sure you tighten that barrel nut down (torqued), and loosen......then repeat a few times.
Get some painters tape, and tape up your lower.....lots of opportunity for scratches and gouges.
YOUTUBE is your friend.
Best of luck!
R/
Chris
I've never had a problem with Palmetto. But if I want a question amswered I ALWAYS call. Email can be lost, or filtered to a spam folder. They will answer the phone. I have bought uppers, lowers, parts kits, and ammo there.
Another option that I personally like for a gun that will be both accurate and handy is a mid-length 1-8 barrel in chome-moly steel (ie, not chrome plated). You have to take care of it, but it is very accurate and meets most people's budgets. I generally shoot 62's or 69's from them, but mine had no problems with Hornady 75 BTHP either.
Quote from: navybowhunter on December 22, 2014, 01:36:34 PM
My A2 in its current config weighs in at 13.5 pounds!
My new one (not the one in the picture I just got a new Krieger upper from White Oak) weighs in at 16.7 lbs and balances beautifully at that weight. The one in the picture was 14.2 and was a little heavy to the rear.
Your build sounds great! I built a pretty similar rifle recently with a YHM chrome moly barrel for the kids to shoot matches with and it shoots great! I'm sure yours will too!
Agrivere,
Will you be at the Eastern Games?
I'd be honored to meet you.
R/
Chris
Got the LPK and the upper and BCG in the mail yesterday, so I got my lower all assembled this evening. Now I'm going to be all twitchy until the rest of it gets here... :(
Quote from: navybowhunter on December 23, 2014, 07:37:40 PM
Agrivere,
Will you be at the Eastern Games?
I'd be honored to meet you.
R/
Chris
My current thoughts are yes to the Eastern games. Haven't totally finalized anything yet though. I'd certainly love to meet you guys!
I've built 8 or 9 ARs and this is the best discussion on building one I've ever read. Great stuff guys. O0
Good stuff, Red Alder Ranch! Like slim said in his original post, shoot the heck of it, and you'll see what you want. I have a Custom Bushmaster that I got all rigged up ready to go, right out of the box. I didn't change a thing when I got it, but after an AS, I changed a few things. My rifle is now set up for a lot more than prone shooting at 400 yds (as I believe every AR should be). After several years now, I've changed quite a bit on it to what DEH said, fulfill my 'mission' requirements, because I've put thousands of rounds through my rifle, taken a few classes, talked to guys who know a heck of a lot more than I do (Major John Plaster, Chris Costa, Rob Pincus, and AS instructors hawkhavn, YHJ, slim, Slow2Speak, MeanStreaker, and the list goes on), learned and practised many techniques, and of course, dry-fired it to death.
Learn from every shot.
Red,
Good choice getting the pre-assembled front sight and barrel, drilling and reaming those holes is not for beginners. It looks like you chose correctly on the barrel as it comes with an F marked front sight base that is compatible with flat top uppers. The difference is the sights are mounted slightly higher with a flat top and the post needs to be a little taller.
I think the DPMS National Match carry handle is expensive only because they put a high price on the 1/4 MOA adjustments. It is equally expensive to buy their 1/4 MOA adjustment pieces for installation on an A2 upper. I think 1/2 MOA is fine enough. Buy something that is from a reputable manufacturer, and don't get bent out of shape about 1/4 MOA. Any cheap carry handle sight can be upgraded with better peeps if you want. You may notice the sight has some side to side wiggle; this is OK because there is a spring that always keeps it to one side. All the back-up sights I have looked at also wiggle, but shot to shot it may be on a different side.
Another common compatibility issue is the M4 feed ramps, but I think you got that right as well. The cuts for M4 ramps extend into the upper receiver and must approximately match. M4 ramps on receiver but not on barrel extension is a no-go.
Have you looked at a parts diagram and checked that you have all the little items covered? You will probably also need a delta ring assembly to attach your handguards. Also ejection port cover, charging handle, front sight post detent and spring, sight adjusting tool, gas tube, flash hider, crush washer, buffer...
Also consider the grease you will use when installing the barrel. If you are a mil-spec guy, you will probably need to order the stuff. I got a manageable quantity (enough to build 50 ARs instead of 5,000) from Umbrella Corporation. Be cautious about using standard anti-seize grease because it contains graphite which can cause corrosion in aluminum.
55 grain bullets will make it to the target at 400 meters and you can probably keep them inside of 4 MOA even in a wind. Match shooters will make up special loads with 80 or 90 grain bullets that are so long they must be single loaded. All this is get a little advantage in the wind from the higher ballistic coefficient (they are also shooting for a 2 MOA 10 ring at 600 yards). If you hand load or buy specialty ammunition, 77 grains is said to be the heaviest you can go and still feed from the magazine.
Finally got all the rest of the parts in the mail today, and put it all together this evening. Wow. Sure didn't take that much time at all!
Yes, this has the feed ramps in barrel and receiver. I used the Del-ton carry handle sight, which they said matched the front sight tower that it came with.
I do need to buy another sight adjustment tool for the front sight; the one I have for my 10/22 Tech sights does not work.
I had some lubromoly cv joint grease in the toolbox, and put a very light coat of that on the barrel nut threads.
Just under $700, including two mags, sales tax and shipping on everything.
Anything special I need to know about breaking in a new barrel?
(http://www.redalderranch.com/pictures/arpic.jpg)
Nice rig!
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on January 10, 2015, 12:46:26 AMI do need to buy another sight adjustment tool for the front sight;
Use a bullet. The AR was designed with sights that could be adjusted by using the point of a bullet. Always with you in the field!
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on January 10, 2015, 12:46:26 AMAnything special I need to know about breaking in a new barrel?
No.
If you read the internet you'll hear mumbo jumbo about shootin a round, cleaning it, shooting another cleaning it, pushing up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, b, a, select, start but the truth is, advances in modern metallurgy have rendered all that bull unnecessary. Just shoot it!
Good job! Thanks for sharing. O0
First three shots, kneeling at 25 yards. Still needs a little dialing in, but that was good enough to hike out to the back and plink some cans and check basic functions.
I did run into a glitch that I'm not sure I've solved. Shots 19 and 20 both ejected the case and chambered the next round, but then it acted like the safety was on, and wouldn't fire, even though the selector was still set to "fire". Next mag started doing the same thing, and in between each shot, I would flip it to safe, and then back to fire, and when I flipped it to safe, you could hear and feel the trigger reset and then it would function fine. After about five of those, then it started resetting the trigger like it was supposed to, and worked fine for the rest of that magazine.
I need to get more ammo now, before I can check and see if it is really solved. What would cause that?
(http://www.redalderranch.com/pictures/sightin.jpg)
OK, picked up some more ammo (man this thing is sure easier shopping for than the 10/22s!) and if it doesn't rain too hard I'll get out to try again this weekend.
Regarding that malfunction, (rifle goes on safe in between shots without the safety selector switch moving) what should I be looking for?
thanks!
check your cross pins (for the tigger). I had this happen with a build and the problem was the the pins were moving under recoil. My solution was some lime green duct tape on each side of the receiver. Many thousand rounds later, no additional problems. When the problem is bad the pin may shift so much that you cannot fire the rifle at all. I ate 4 shots on a KD AQT because of this with a new build one day.
Sorry we missed the updates on this and glad to see you got to shoot it!
The malf sounds to me like your disconnector isn't functioning correctly. Typically the cheap LPKs (not to disparage, just saying) have something missing or tolerances that allow something to slip or walk-off.
I had one (don't even remember the brand name - I think it was so cheap it didn't have a name!) where the little spring inside the hammer was missing and it caused everything in there to hit all caddy-whompus and I'd get failures. I swapped out with an anti-walk pin and that fixed the issue by eliminating the lateral movement. (I see jmdavis posted the same issue/fix. That's my number one suspicion as well.)
Yours may be caused by something similar or maybe the little spring that's supposed to push up on the disconnector popped out. Pull your upper off and then go step by step through a YouTube video on the fire control group. You should be able to see if something is out of place.
I'll check those out when I get out shooting tomorrow.
Another newbie question:
I'm getting ready to order some ammo for a KD shoot, and I'm looking at 55 and 62 grain, for not much difference in price. Looking at PRVI and Federal American Eagle in the 55 grain, and Fiocchi in the 62 grain.
Any reason to prefer one or the other for a KD shoot? Barrel is a 1:9 twist. How many rounds do I need for a KD event?
thanks!
In a 1:9 you probably won't notice much difference between the two. Get what's cheapest. If you're not a reloader, buy even cheaper Wolf steel cased stuff.
For most KD events 250rds or so is enough. You may want to contact your Shoot Boss or State Coordinator to get an exact count.
Trigger spring. ;)
I got out this afternoon and ran another 20 rounds through it, and it was trouble free this time.
Sometimes ARs are just finicky. Shoot the crap out of it and you'll get all the bugs worked out.