Art of the Rifle blog has done a series of posts about the standing position which I think will be directly applicable to us in AS and to High Power and smallbore shooters. Here is a link to the latest article: http://artoftherifleblog.com/structural-refinement-balance-in-the-standing-position-part-1/2014/12/structural-refinement-balance-in-the-standing-position-part-1.html (http://artoftherifleblog.com/structural-refinement-balance-in-the-standing-position-part-1/2014/12/structural-refinement-balance-in-the-standing-position-part-1.html)
Balance is huge.
Had a guy on the line this weekend who kept dipping his head down to the sights and when he brought the rifle up (and balanced his ears) he said, "Oh! And now I'm not swaying as much either. Much better." He and his buddies were "tactical operators" and all wanted to do the door kicker stance because "it was steadier that way." I had them hold their rifles out to their sides using only their support hands. They tried their position for about four seconds....and ours for about 30.
When I coach individuals I walk up and stand across from them as they're 90 degrees to the line. I hold their rifle. I say, "Stand here and talk to me like we're having a normal conversation. How would you stand." Invariably they stand as described in the link with feet shoulder width apart and fairly even. Then I tell them to "Hold out your support hand like you're a waiter holding a big tray of food." They do.... and that elbow ends up right by their support side hip. I place the rifle "up on the shelf" and high into the shoulder pocket telling them to replicate that adding the sling into it. They try it a time or two to get the sling just right and then they say, "Oh yeah. Now I see what you're talking about."
This stuff works. There's no trick or gimmick needed. The fundamentals are all it takes.
Slim that is a great way to present the standing position. Going in the tool box. Thanks
I do like that.
At my first Appleseed this past weekend, I was taught the standing position with a hasty sling. I did well enough with it, but I had to be reminded regularly to chicken-wing my trigger-arm and to raise my rifle up to my face. I noticed, however, in this position my support arm's elbow was away from my body, since I was holding the rifle up more. Is this right? It seems like the support arm would be more stable with my elbow at my side instead of floating out away from my body. There didn't seem to be a way to relax my stance into a stable NPOA; I had to keep muscles tensed to keep the rifle up at my face. What should I try to fix this? Was my sling too tight?
Freeside: Yes, it sounds like your sling was too tight. Depending on your build, you might need a little more than an open hand-span between the trigger guard and the sling.
While using a hasty sling is different from the offhand position used by high-power and ISSF shooters (who don't use the sling in standing), loosening the sling a little so that you can bring your hand back and make your arm bones more vertical, will increase stability. As you relax your shoulders and allow your support elbow to drop, you will feel the sling tighten to the correct tension.
Ok, thanks! That's what I get for trying to optimize my preparation time between sling positions. :) I didn't want to risk messing up my prone sling length. :P I guess I can mark the positions with a sharpie or something.
Freeside, I suspect your sling was too loose. When that is the case, frequently there is a tendency to stick your support elbow out to tighten up the sling. Your support elbow should be directly under your rifle, with your sling snug. Firemanbob is correct that it is better to bring your support hand back closer to your body for more stability. In fact, I adjust my sling so that I can bring my upper support arm back solidly in contact with my ribs. This means that my support hand is usually directly under the trigger guard. This gives me the maximum stability. You may have to take care that your support fingers don't get hit by the charging handle on rifles like the 10/22.
Freeside,
"I guess I can mark the positions with a sharpie or something."
Since I am always experimenting with sling positions I use masking tape to mark the sling. I have lost track of how many times I have adjusted the sling. Mercifully each time gets better!
Works slick!
After watching DonD in standing position I tell shooters if their rifle is heavy it's because your sling is too loose. I can stand holding my 9 pound M1 Garand for a very long time and not get tired IF my sling is tight enough.
Wreck
I had several epiphany's regarding the Standing position. It is great that Appleseed allows the use of the hasty sling, unfortunately CMP and NRA do not.
What was the first gem to me, was scoring awfully my first big CMP match in standing during the CMP Eastern Games. They hold a BBQ for competitors after a match, and it is good food. At least it smelled real good to me. What I did at the BBQ was I approached every shooter I could that had the "Distinguished" badge/device on their hat. One of those competitors, is Greg Ficklin, he has a post on the CMP forum that is titled "What it takes to be competitive".
Greg started to explain it to me like this, and it was a great analogy as I am retired Navy and attended boot camp. He said, "Remember when the DI would make you hold your rifle with the arms out, and balance it"? It was a painful exercise for sure, it can also be done with a pencil, makes no difference. When arms are extended, arms will tire out. Does not really matter how much weight one is holding. Eventually the shakes will start, and the arms will start to drop...OR....the arms will start to come in closer to the torso. Closer and Closer in, WOW....I can hold this thing a lot longer. That was the first lesson. BRING the hands in close on the stock. For an AR15, my support hand is under the delta ring. For the M1 Garand, my support hand is right up against the trigger guard.
Second lesson came from Sgt Chubb, great guy that is a staple at Butner and Perry. Chubb was talking with me outside my hotel as he was travelling back home. He asked me, "How are you shooting"? My response was "Awful in Standing", Chubb asked me if I had some time (I tell you these competitors are some of the best people I have ever met), and he came up to my room with me, and worked on my standing position.
The hotel had a long tall mirror. He asked me to shoulder the rifle as I would on the firing line. He then told me to stand in front of the mirror and do it. WOW! For me, and many others I have been told, this is a MUST CHECK. Do the mirror thing, it will reveal a LOT on your head position. My head was no where near erect, but I thought it was.
Next day scores went from 50's to mid 70's in standing. Still more to learn.
Got with Greg Ficklin again, and he gave me some more pointers, as did Johnny Fisher. These will contradict Appleseed instruction somewhat, as we preach to never move that support foot when in position. Well, it must be moved when establishing NPOA, both feet must be moved. But, the movement is so slight, it is akin to shimmy'ing a heavy refridgerator in the home. Slight shimmy on right side, slight shimmy on left side. Close eyes, shoulder rifle.....inhale/exhale, open em up. Are you DEAD center on the target? Probably not, in my case likely on another target number. Rinse/and Repeat until its there. This takes up ALL of my 2 minute prep, and sometimes a minute or so into live fire (we get 10 minutes for 10 shots). Once NPOA is established, then we are frozen in concrete. If a shot is wide, and it was called wide. Check NPOA again.
Trigger control, once NPOA established, as soon as I come down on the target, I take up the first stage of the trigger. I hold that, until I am ready to start my squeeze. Front sight enters the black, I squeeze a little more, exits the black, I NEVER give what I squeezed back to the target. Give away nothing. Enters the black, squeeze some more. Greg Ficklin likens the trigger control in sanding to waiting for a ripe apple to fall from a tree directly into your hands. No need to PLUCK that apple....let it fall naturally into your hands, and give nothing back.
The above paragraph describes what should happen in 5-7 seconds. If it does not happen, (still working on this one), take the rifle out of your shoulder and start the process over. I throw all of my bad shots, because I try to force em.
One of BeSwift's friends Steve A, helped me with this last gem on the topic. Steve noticed my standing position, and had a bit of advice for me. Maybe it is because I am prior military, but we tend to walk around with our heads up, and shoulders erect/up as well. Kiss of death in standing on the shoulders part. Before I get ready to shoulder the rifle, I RELAX my shoulders. Let em droop naturally. Especially if you are wearing a hardback shooting coat. Let the coat do the work for you.
I've experienced this a few times, but this is the position I am working on the hardest. The shot should go off subconsciously, in other words your muscle memory and training over time, will know what a 10 or an X (or a 5 or a V) looks like, and the rifle will simply go off.
Hope this helps some of you, as stated Greg Ficklins post on the CMP forum is a great resource. As are the YouTube videos of Ken Roxburgh on this position as well.
R/
Chris
Quote from: Freeside on April 20, 2016, 12:21:16 PM
Ok, thanks! That's what I get for trying to optimize my preparation time between sling positions. :) I didn't want to risk messing up my prone sling length. :P I guess I can mark the positions with a sharpie or something.
I have considered using two slings. One for prone and seated, one for standing. I don't think there would be any problem with that. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I guess the only thing one would lose doing that is learning how to adjust the sling.
GOF: You don't need two slings. It's easy to mark one sling, with a Sharpie or tape, as said above, and adjust it. A sling costs as much as 3-4 boxes of .22LR. That's 4 AQTs you could shoot.
Mr. FiremanBob,
Thank you sir. I understand that I don't need 2 slings. I was just thinking for the convenience factor of not having to adjust them when switching from usage modes. Might be something I try to help me stay in the bubble. That is where I was going with my thoughts on the sling.
Your point is well made. By the time I get another one and put the QD connectors, I might be close to a box of Federal Auto Match in cost. I will have to carefully consider this.
I have been struggling with my sling lately. I don't think I have it set up right and I am frustrated. I guess I just need to get out and dry fire and make adjustments until I find what works.
GOF: You will find it much easier to adjust your sling than to get to the line in prep, find you have the "wrong" sling, and try to run back to the loading table to swap them. Trust me, adjusting the sling will be trivially easy once you get the hang of it. This is true whether you have a web sling or a 1907 sling.
You can lay your mat down on any floor in your house and practice the positions at home, any time you want.
Quote from: FiremanBob on August 06, 2016, 05:27:28 PM
You can lay your mat down on any floor in your house and practice the positions at home, any time you want.
LOL, I know. As long as the Shoot Boss of the house doesn't freak out. She is getting much better about all of it.
She was very gun averse and asked that I not own a firearm until my kids were adults. I obliged. When they were 18 I got my first Ruger 10/22. I did not really shoot it until I found the Appleseed forum and Slim met me at the Wilmington range. My daughter and I went to an event later that year.
I invited her to the range, she declined a couple times. Then she went and stayed in the car. I guess she observed how safe everyone was because the next time she got out.
Then, one day after shooting, I went to a retailer that has many firearms. I had been researching .22 LR pistols. I decided on a Beretta Neos with a 6 inch barrel. She was with me and asked what I was doing. I told her I was buying her a pistol. Her eyes lit up and she said, "Really?"
She goes to the range with me a couple times a month to shoot her pistol. She loves it. She still won't do an Appleseed because she doesn't want to get down on the ground.
So, if she asks me to not dry fire in the house, I will probably abide by her wishes.
Anyway, way off topic.
I will probably stick with one sling and keep working on working it out.
Thanks for the encouragement and help.