Someday, I'd like to have my own chunk of property to hunt and whatever on, and if I could stick a range on it,
that'd be nice. I was looking at some of the steel targets for sale and I had a thought of how nice it would be
to have an Appleseed range with 25m one way, and 500 yards another way at right angles with a pavilion sort
of thing in the middle.
If one were to have steel AQT targets hanging at actual range, it would be neat to, while discussing the red coat,
step over to the 500 yard line and have an instructor's full power rifle staged there and have him or her demo the
shingle shot, cold barrel, one shot, and he/she'd better not miss. Then, back to describing the red coat target and
over to the 25m line.
So, my question is, which position? The prone would yield the best chance of a hit, but the standing would yield
the most impressive shot. Seated in between the two. Does anyone know what Morgan actually asked for, or did he care, or did they lean on a fencepost?
I just assumed standing...more impressive. :~
We don't have any requirements on positions to use shooting the first red coat of the day, so I say anything that is comfortable goes. Prone for me, especially if I'm going to be ribbed by my fellow instructors for the rest of the weekend if I miss. ;) ;)
You should talk to hawkeye about the 460 yard standing shots with the 1917 on the popup. But, I would look at the scores that most instructors shoot on the target at 400 yards before scheduling a demo for 500.
On this forum you can find period accounts of riflemen before and during the siege of Boston. It is not easy to load a flintlock rifle in the prone or seated position. Tim Murphy was in a tree and likely resting the rifle for the shot at Frasier. That too was a difficult reload.
I thought he was talking about one cold bore shot, that's why I said standing. My bad.
I can't answer your question John, but I recently had a Facebook message "conversation" with a carpenter at Colonial Williamsburg about what size a shingle would have been. My intent was and is to make a replica as a visual. I present the exchange here for what it's worth.
The Historic Carpenters of Colonial Williamsburg
Q: Can you please tell me the dimensions of a typical colonial-era wooden roof shingle?
A: 18" length, 3-5" width, tapering from 3/4"- 1/8" in thickness
Q: Thank you! In Virginia, what species would have been most common?
A: Cypress, Atlantic White Cedar and White Oak were the most common.
This size and shape is quite different from what is on our Redcoat target.
UL
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2014, 04:38:17 PM
So, my question is, which position? The prone would yield the best chance of a hit, but the standing would yield
the most impressive shot. Seated in between the two. Does anyone know what Morgan actually asked for, or did he care, or did they lean on a fencepost?
Highly recommend the prologue to the Long Rifle
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Rifle-Stewart-Edward-White/dp/0878422307
yes you can get it on Amazon for "free" (one penny and what, $3 for shipping).
Plus it is one of the books that Jeff Cooper says is worth reading more than once (how I found it).
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on November 13, 2014, 09:36:22 PM
I can't answer your question John, but I recently had a Facebook message "conversation" with a carpenter at Colonial Williamsburg about what size a shingle would have been. My intent was and is to make a replica as a visual. I present the exchange here for what it's worth.
The Historic Carpenters of Colonial Williamsburg
Q: Can you please tell me the dimensions of a typical colonial-era wooden roof shingle?
A: 18" length, 3-5" width, tapering from 3/4"- 1/8" in thickness
Q: Thank you! In Virginia, what species would have been most common?
A: Cypress, Atlantic White Cedar and White Oak were the most common.
This size and shape is quite different from what is on our Redcoat target.
UL
You need to be careful not to confuse Appleseed terminology with Colonial terminology. Here is a report from 1775 describing what was often shot...
"When Cresap's company arrived at Lancaster, they put on an exhibition of marksmanship for the townspeople. An eyewitness described the performance in a letter printed in the Pennsylvania Packet of August 28th, which says in pare "On Friday evening last arrived here, on their way to the American Camp, Captain Cresap's Company of Riflemen, consisting of 130 active, brave young fellows, many of whom had been in the late expedition under Lord Dunmore against the Indians. They bear in their bodies visible marks of their prowess, and show scars and wounds... two brothers in the company took a piece of board, five inches broad and seven inches long, with a bit of white paper about the size of a dollar nailed in the center, and while one of them supported this board perpendicularly between his knees, the other at a distance of upwards of sixty yards and without any kind of a rest, shot eight bullets successively through the board, and spared his brother's thighs....the spectators, amazed at these feats, were told that there were upwards of fifty persons in the company who could do the same thing; that there was not one who could not plug 19 bullets out of 20 within an inch of the head of a ten-penny nail...."
and...
The Loyalist Bradford brothers, Philadelphia printers, wrote the following story which appeared in the London Chronicle on August 17, 1775: "This province has raised 1,000 riflemen, the worst of whom will put a ball into a man's head at a distance of 150 or 200 yards, therefore advise your officers who shall hereafter come out to America to settle their affairs in England before their departure".
These are from http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/longrifle.html. Longer versions have been posted elsewhere on the forum by both AZMinuteman and myself.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 13, 2014, 10:14:48 PM
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on November 13, 2014, 09:36:22 PM
I can't answer your question John, but I recently had a Facebook message "conversation" with a carpenter at Colonial Williamsburg about what size a shingle would have been. My intent was and is to make a replica as a visual. I present the exchange here for what it's worth.
The Historic Carpenters of Colonial Williamsburg
Q: Can you please tell me the dimensions of a typical colonial-era wooden roof shingle?
A: 18" length, 3-5" width, tapering from 3/4"- 1/8" in thickness
Q: Thank you! In Virginia, what species would have been most common?
A: Cypress, Atlantic White Cedar and White Oak were the most common.
This size and shape is quite different from what is on our Redcoat target.
UL
You need to be careful not to confuse Appleseed terminology with Colonial terminology. Here is a report from 1775 describing what was often shot...
"When Cresap's company arrived at Lancaster, they put on an exhibition of marksmanship for the townspeople. An eyewitness described the performance in a letter printed in the Pennsylvania Packet of August 28th, which says in pare "On Friday evening last arrived here, on their way to the American Camp, Captain Cresap's Company of Riflemen, consisting of 130 active, brave young fellows, many of whom had been in the late expedition under Lord Dunmore against the Indians. They bear in their bodies visible marks of their prowess, and show scars and wounds... two brothers in the company took a piece of board, five inches broad and seven inches long, with a bit of white paper about the size of a dollar nailed in the center, and while one of them supported this board perpendicularly between his knees, the other at a distance of upwards of sixty yards and without any kind of a rest, shot eight bullets successively through the board, and spared his brother's thighs....the spectators, amazed at these feats, were told that there were upwards of fifty persons in the company who could do the same thing; that there was not one who could not plug 19 bullets out of 20 within an inch of the head of a ten-penny nail...."
and...
The Loyalist Bradford brothers, Philadelphia printers, wrote the following story which appeared in the London Chronicle on August 17, 1775: "This province has raised 1,000 riflemen, the worst of whom will put a ball into a man's head at a distance of 150 or 200 yards, therefore advise your officers who shall hereafter come out to America to settle their affairs in England before their departure".
These are from http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/longrifle.html. Longer versions have been posted elsewhere on the forum by both AZMinuteman and myself.
No confusion here. And your point is?
UL
So....ok..and I thought we were talking about a shooting position. Hey thats pretty good detail on that target UL. We should make one!
UL- I can't figure out what he's getting at or what he thinks you're confusing, either.
John- Be careful. Ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with your exercise. Disassociate for a moment and consider it as a teacher. What do you want the students to learn from your display? Are you trying to connect them to the history? Are you trying to impress them with your ability? What is the purpose of that? Remove the marksman from your train of thought and focus on the pedagogy. Ask the question , "Why?".
The point is that the period reports didn't call it a shingle. They called it a board and then went on to describe the size.
Two very similar sizes are mentioned 5x7 inches and the size of a head. The term shingle does not come from the reports of the time, it is a term applied by Appleseed instructors to describe the actual object in more modern terms.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 13, 2014, 11:31:04 PM
The point is that the period reports didn't call it a shingle. They called it a board and then went on to describe the size.
Two very similar sizes are mentioned 5x7 inches and the size of a head. The term shingle does not come from the reports of the time, it is a term applied by Appleseed instructors to describe the actual object in more modern terms.
Cresap was from Maryland and the story you cited is when they were passing through Lancaster, PA on their way to Boston. Did I mention that I lived in Lancaster and I know a lot of people there? But I digress.
I'm familiar with the account from the book Daniel Morgan Revolutionary Rifleman where a one foot square board was propped against a tree 150 yards away (page 23). But there are no citations for that account.
Anyway, thanks for the information from Lancaster and Philadelphia. When you find a report from the time period relating directly to Daniel Morgan's test in Virginia, report back here and give us the details. Please do let us know what you find.
UL
Perhaps you can educate us on where the whole idea of Morgan's shingle is derived? Just what resource did you draw it from? It would be great to be able to refer people to a source for the story.
Targets as described in the above quotes were still being shot 150 years later in rifle matches. Cline's "Muzzleloading Rifle" referenced in the article that I linked discusses such contests as they were held in TN, OH, and IN. The reason they were happening so many years later is that they were a common occurrence where frontiersmen came together.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 14, 2014, 01:13:52 AMPerhaps you can educate us on where the whole idea of Morgan's shingle is derived? Just what resource did you draw it from? It would be great to be able to refer people to a source for the story.
"Morgan's Shingle" comes from churching up our program when we were trying to cater to kids and soccer moms while simultaneously distancing ourselves from the camo-clad militamen. Prior to that it was called "the head shot."
My own mom wouldn't let my (then) eight-year-old brother come to Appleseed because, "she didn't want him learning to make head shots." Fast forward a few years and he's been to Appleseed and his three other brothers are Riflemen. Our mom's been too. She's shirked off the disgust of things like "head shots" and even asked for an AR-15 for Christmas. Times are a changin!
But, as a program, it's important for us to appeal to the largest audience possible and that's why head shot was dumped in favor of "Morgan's Shingle." It gave us the opportunity to distance ourselves from "milita-esque training" and appeal to the broader spectrum of society who would rather hear about history. Those head shot dudes are still coming out although it takes us a bit more marketing because they think we're a program for kids and soccer moms and not tactical operators like themselves (who can't make head shots at 250 paces).
As for the actual size of Morgan's Shingle? Who cares. I've heard it as a board, a bucket, a shingle... I've also heard it posted at 250 paces, 250 yards, 70 yards, about 125 yards, 25 yards, etc. If we're striving to be historically accurate (and I think many of us are) the point is, like all things Appleseed, get it "close enough" and get the point of the story across. If people want to debate whether size really matters there are many sites on the internet to do so.
Big John, I hear what you're saying and understand what you're trying to accomplish. I've even seen it done on Sunday (by a 17-year-old using an old FAL and banging steel at 500 from standing!) but I'm not sure "showing off" on Saturday morning would set the right tone for shooters who could, quite possibly, struggle to get on paper for the rest of the day. I like "feats of marksmanship" but not on Saturday morning.
Timothy Murphy was reputed to be able to hit a 7 inch target at 250 yards.
http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/articles/murphy.htm
There were also "shingles" on the sides of houses. Roof shingles were usually larger, being overlapped for water to run farther away from the square nails that were nailed in at the top of the roof shingle, that would be on the roof, to be overlaid by the next shingle in the next row higher. The shingles on the sides of houses were quite a bit smaller, with much less water resistance being required. From the NY state article, the "Morgan's Shingle" size sounds more like a shingle from the side of a house, not from the roof.
It would be interesting to learn what the Williamsburg carpenter would say would be the size of a shingle for use on the side of a house! It would avoid us calling it a head shot, which is really what it was!
-- gb
I see no need for the acrimony that has seeped into this thread. There isn't enough documented evidence to say for certain whether Morgan's target was a plain board, or any other specialized wood product such as a house shingle. Fixating on the word "shingle" confuses the issue.
Modern siding shingles are nominally 8" wide and 18" long. The "reveal" (part of the shingle that is not covered by another shingle) of a standard 18" long shingle is 8".
Possibly we have some blackpowder enthusiasts that own and shoot flintlocks? I would like to see someone post up some video of making the "shingle shot" at 150-250 yards. I've heard the story so many times I can't count, but have never seen it done with a flinter.
I can not say "shingle shot" without smiling a bit.....but, then I am from Oklahoma, where silliness is usually reserved for religion and liquor laws.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 14, 2014, 01:13:52 AM
Perhaps you can educate us on where the whole idea of Morgan's shingle is derived? Just what resource did you draw it from? It would be great to be able to refer people to a source for the story.
Targets as described in the above quotes were still being shot 150 years later in rifle matches. Cline's "Muzzleloading Rifle" referenced in the article that I linked discusses such contests as they were held in TN, OH, and IN. The reason they were happening so many years later is that they were a common occurrence where frontiersmen came together.
I have no idea where the shingle story comes from. It has been told at every Appleseed I have been to. I was hoping you could educate us on the matter. I agree that it would be great to have a reference to give to instructors and shooters.
UL
Quote from: Guntuckian on November 14, 2014, 01:36:40 AM
Timothy Murphy was reputed to be able to hit a 7 inch target at 250 yards.
http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/articles/murphy.htm
There were also "shingles" on the sides of houses. Roof shingles were usually larger, being overlapped for water to run farther away from the square nails that were nailed in at the top of the roof shingle, that would be on the roof, to be overlaid by the next shingle in the next row higher. The shingles on the sides of houses were quite a bit smaller, with much less water resistance being required. From the NY state article, the "Morgan's Shingle" size sounds more like a shingle from the side of a house, not from the roof.
It would be interesting to learn what the Williamsburg carpenter would say would be the size of a shingle for use on the side of a house! It would avoid us calling it a head shot, which is really what it was!
-- gb
GT- I just sent them another message asking this question. I'll report back here what I find out.
Here you go, from The Historic Carpenters of Colonial Williamsburg-Q: Hello! Can you please tell me the dimensions of a typical colonial-era wooden shingle that would have been used on the side of a house?
A: In Massachusetts the law said 18 inches long, 1/2 inch at the butt, average 4 1/2 inches wide, no narrower than three inches. We don't see shingles on the sides of Tidewater Va houses, but it's common in other colonies
Back to John's question, sort of. I would think that for an Appleseed instructor, hitting a 12x12 board at 150 with a flintlock would be very doable from the standing position. Likewise in kneeling. This may be a nice demo for, say, a hot Sunday afternoon while the shooters are taking a cold drink break in the shade. Or for an unofficial "third day" get-together like we are doing at Crittenden, KY on Thanksgiving weekend.
UL
Why would you not want to take the shot when your telling the story?? I think it would put it in perspective...just asking.
The reason not to take the shot is the high chance of failure and what that could show the students. It's one thing to put on a demo of an instructor shooting a transition stage of the AQT. The point of that is to provide an example that the students can follow when they shoot (see, hear, do) and the score is irrelevant. It is certainly possible to hit small targets at 500 yards with modern rifles in offhand. Hawkeye has done it as have others and silhouette shooters do it every weekend across the country. But you do need to ask why you are doing it.
The 1ft square board is not a bad idea, but I would note that most offhand muzzleloader matches take place at 100 yards or less. The board is historically accurate because wood was free or cheap and paper was very expensive. But mastering a fixed sight muzzleloader well enough to consistently hit the board will take some time and practice. I know that I couldn't do it 90% of the time right now, though I take deer with lung shots with those rifles to 100 yards and with a smoothrifle flintlock out to 75 yards.
The historical context for shooting matches at boards etc, dates back to before the revolution. Shooting matches were popular whenever men came together. In the mountains of TN, that popularity continued until the 20th century and to this day a match is held on the Alvin York Farm that looks much like the shooting match in the movie "Sgt. York" (target at 60 yards, roundball muzzleloader, shot prone over a log). The targets are paper rather than boards these days. And, the winner of that match will put the center of 10 .45 or .50 roundballs within .3 inches of the unseen X in the center of the target. Each of the 10 shots is a separate match and is measured for distance to center to determine the overall winner. The total of the 10 distances is called the string and the shortest "string" wins. It is not unusual to have the matches judged by divider tools to determine the winner of any one string.
Here is an example of a target that didn't win. It's pretty good but not good enough to win in the mountains of TN shooting against competitors from throughout the US and Canada.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/10689York_shoot_06_056.jpg
I am reminded of a target that VAShooter shot at an offhand Muzzleloader match when we shot at the same club in the early 90's. It was a 100 yard Highpower target and his score was 100 (I don't remember the X count) using his .36 caliber Squirrel rifle. That target remained on the wall of the club for many, many years. The 10 ring of that target is 3.35 inches wide and the X ring is 1.35 inches.
So it is absolutely possible to shoot the foot square target. But like anything it will take some dedication and practice to do it well.
Quote from: SPQR on November 13, 2014, 11:29:50 PM
UL- I can't figure out what he's getting at or what he thinks you're confusing, either.
John- Be careful. Ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with your exercise. Disassociate for a moment and consider it as a teacher. What do you want the students to learn from your display? Are you trying to connect them to the history? Are you trying to impress them with your ability? What is the purpose of that? Remove the marksman from your train of thought and focus on the pedagogy. Ask the question , "Why?".
Quote from: slim on November 14, 2014, 01:31:08 AM
Big John, I hear what you're saying and understand what you're trying to accomplish. I've even seen it done on Sunday (by a 17-year-old using an old FAL and banging steel at 500 from standing!) but I'm not sure "showing off" on Saturday morning would set the right tone for shooters who could, quite possibly, struggle to get on paper for the rest of the day. I like "feats of marksmanship" but not on Saturday morning.
My thinking was to do a few things immediately in the Sat AM.
1. Root the Redcoat target a little more into history.
2. Firm foundation for the "yes, this 25 meter .22 rimfire stuff DOES translate to big boy rifles and real ranges"
stuff to combat any "playing pop gun for women and kids" perceptions any shooter may have.
3. Establish instructor "street cred" early on.
But, like both Huff and Slim said, perhaps Sat AM is not the best time to do that. Similar to how I see some
instructors dress, with the red hoodie on Sat and the olive drab shooting jacket on Sun, perhaps it is best to
not go full power first thing Sat AM. Also, perhaps better "street cred" is how well you teach on Sat, maybe
show off on Sunday.
That being said, perhaps the demo shot has an "if time available" spot on Sunday AM or PM. I had not imagined or
intended the proposed idea to be a period correct rifle. I was thinking an AR or a .308 of some flavor.
I think that, although the standing shot would be most impressive, if hit, the prone position would be more
appropriate, and doable by a rifleman. A foot square target is ~4.8MOA at 250 yards. A 7 inch target is ~2.8MOA.
I would bet money on a AS instructor being able to cold bore shot from prone a 7 inch square at 250 yds with
their personal KD rifle.
The shingle shape discussion is enlightening. Did we actually start calling it a shingle shot based on churching
it up, or because that was the actual target that was used to represent a headshot?
Down in Myakka FL, we usually post a steel "stage 1" silhouette out at 100 yards, making it a 400 yard equiv. and let everyone shoot it right after KD on Sunday. Everyone gets 1 shot from standing, including instructors, who occasionally have to suffer ribbing the rest of the day if they miss. It's also fun to watch friends and family members turn it into a little friendly competition. Last time we did it, about half the line actually hit the shot. BTW, if you take a wine cork and place it at 25 yards, it also mimics the plank almost perfectly ,if a little tall. I stick a 1 inch orange dot on them.
If you wanted to place a steel "plank" at 500 yards, the same scale as our redcoat target, it would be 20 inches tall by 15 inches wide.
Quote from: Big John on November 14, 2014, 02:33:54 PMI would bet money on a AS instructor being able to cold bore shot from prone a 7 inch square at 250 yds with their personal KD rifle.
I'd almost be willing to hold it between my knees for any of the Hoosier IC. They're that good.
Quote from: Big John on November 14, 2014, 02:33:54 PMThe shingle shape discussion is enlightening. Did we actually start calling it a shingle shot based on churching it up, or because that was the actual target that was used to represent a headshot?
It's a little of both.
When I first started Appleseeding it was the head shot and there were no apologies. About two years later it started getting a little apology with it, "Now, I know the head shot sounds gruesome, but it has historical significance. When Morgan raised his companies, the test was...." and it was presented as either a board or a bucket, sometimes a shingle, but it was placed out there at 250 paces (or whatever arbitrary distance the presenter decided was historically accurate that day) and King George's nose was drawn on with chalk or painted and then the fellers would step up cold bore and shoot it. Fast forward another two years and Morgan's company was 40 men and the 41st did not fire. About a year later we had it drawn up on the target and it was officially, "Morgan's Shingle."
I'd reckon in two more years we'll have even more details because we can't seem to contain ourselves from adding, "one more thing" to the manual or our targets and everyone wants "their thing" to be officially part of Appleseed POI for posterity.
The only person who really knows is Morgan. And those 80 men. Heck, the 81st man probably doesn't even know.
"...we can't seem to contain ourselves from adding, "one more thing" to the manual or our targets and everyone wants "their thing" to be officially part of Appleseed POI for posterity.
Speak for thyself, kemo sabe.
I've heard just about every type of target imaginable for the time...
The common denominator - whatever the object may, be it was chosen to convey the size of the target.
Which would approximate the size of a human head.
The only actual link that I know of is the historical evidence that they were able to do so.
A Hasidic Parable
When the great Rabbi Israel Baal Shem-Tov saw misfortune threatening the Jews it was his custom to go into a certain part of the forest to meditate. There he would light a fire, say a special prayer, and the miracle would be accomplished and the misfortune averted.
Later, when his disciple, the celebrated Magid of Mezritch, had occasion, for the same reason, to intercede with heaven, he would go to the same place in the forest and say: "Master of the Universe, listen! I do not know how to light the fire, but I am still able to say the prayer," and again the miracle would be accomplished.
Still later, Rabbi Moshe-Leib of Sasov, in order to save his people once more, would go into the forest and say: "I do not know how to light the fire, I do not know the prayer, but I know the place and this must be sufficient." It was sufficient and the miracle was accomplished.
Then it fell to Rabbi Israel of Rizhyn to overcome misfortune. Sitting in his armchair, his head in his hands, he spoke to God: "I am unable to light the fire and I do not know the prayer; I cannot even find the place in the forest. All I can do is to tell the story, and this must be sufficient." And it was sufficient.
God made man because he loves stories.
-- Elie Wiesel, The Gates of the Forest
Quote from: slim on November 14, 2014, 08:32:07 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 14, 2014, 02:33:54 PMI would bet money on a AS instructor being able to cold bore shot from prone a 7 inch square at 250 yds with their personal KD rifle.
I'd almost be willing to hold it between my knees for any of the Hoosier IC. They're that good.
slim do you remember my last atterbury shoot! please don't hold it for me lol :) well I guess only if I'm in the seated. the rest you would probably be safe with :)
Regarding the Morgan's Shingle and shooting it....
I was curious as to the actual size of the shingle myself. So after a bit of research I found that it apparently was about 7" by 9" in size. To confirm that...DO THE MATH.
The AS shingle is 3/4" x 1" and shot at 25 meters. 250 meters is 10 times that distance so simply multiply the postage stamp sized shingle we shoot on the redcoat target by 10. You get pretty close to the 7x9 inch rectangle I found in my search.