These guys have a sale on the Black Aces Pro 5 Mossberg receiver. These things are normally $450 on sale for $99. I checked with Black Aces and they are a legitimate dealer for them. This receiver converts a Mossberg to take Saiga 12 mags and drums. So if you happen to already have a Mossberg 500 (perhaps a beater one you bought at a police auction 30 years ago really cheap ;) ) this would make a fun project. You could probably sell off your Mossberg parts on ebay to recoup some or most of the cost. Of course Saiga mags aren't cheap but if you already have some for your Saiga that's a bonus. O0 (and yes I ordered one of these)
http://www.reapercamo.com/receiver_kits.html?utm_source=Early+Black+Friday%2C+Black+Aces+Sale&utm_campaign=Early+Black+Friday&utm_medium=email
Here is an interesting slant on this. Since this is a virgin receiver you could make it into a short barrel "firearm" that is neither a short barrel shotgun (SBS) or an Any Other Weapon (AOW). And yes they are legal in Mich and most other states. I've looked into it pretty thoroughly.
More info about that if interested.
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
Do these have to ship through an ffl?
Quote from: 509gman on November 11, 2014, 03:33:02 PM
Do these have to ship through an ffl?
Unfortunately yes.
And....you will need a donor gun for the barrel, slide etc, etc or buy those parts from Mossberg directly or off ebay.
If you go the short barrel route you can get the 14" bbl, tube, slide and other parts from Mossberg for about $200.
Otherwise you will need to cut a barrel down to about 15" minimum to clear the mag tube cap.
Is "tactical" shotgun discussion allowed on this forum?
Quote from: dragit on November 12, 2014, 11:22:55 AM
Is "tactical" shotgun discussion allowed on this forum?
Why not?
And by the way, Black Aces Tactical got approval from ATF to make their mag fed receivers into "firearms" i.e. less than 18" bbl with an OAL of over 26" not requiring any kind of NFA forms or taxes. So, yes you can have a short barrel smooth bore firearm. Black Aces will be offering an 8" bbl mag fed smoothbore with a Sig brace. And since they have gotten approval for one with a Sig Brace you cna do it yourself with this receiver. Mine is waiting at my FFL for pickup.
From what I just read, they've approved the "firearm" with the brace, but only if you use it as a brace. On this particular firearm they said that if you use the brace to shoulder it, it will become an SBS.
http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/
There is a picture of the ATF tech branch letter in the article above. I believe they are wrong in the way they worded it.
I've still got a couple of Black Aces receivers on the way, one Mossberg 500 and one Maverick 88. Looking for cheap used shotguns for parts. I'm not planning on using a Sig brace with them, but I'd like to know that I have the option. I already have a Saiga and some mags, and I already have a Mossberg 500 "firearm" using the shockwave birdshead grip. This will be a nice melding of the two.
Quote from: jwebster on November 19, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
From what I just read, they've approved the "firearm" with the brace, but only if you use it as a brace. On this particular firearm they said that if you use the brace to shoulder it, it will become an SBS.
http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/
There is a picture of the ATF tech branch letter in the article above. I believe they are wrong in the way they worded it.
I've still got a couple of Black Aces receivers on the way, one Mossberg 500 and one Maverick 88. Looking for cheap used shotguns for parts. I'm not planning on using a Sig brace with them, but I'd like to know that I have the option. I already have a Saiga and some mags, and I already have a Mossberg 500 "firearm" using the shockwave birdshead grip. This will be a nice melding of the two.
ATF tends to make stuff up as they go without my rhyme or reason. Ask three different people get three different opinions which often contradict each other with convoluted logic. Since a stabilizing brace is a non regulated accessory, adding it to a pistol or "firearm" doesn't change the status of either i.e, you can eat cake with a spoon but that doesn't make it a fork. They basically said that for the pistols.
The wording of the letter is absolutely convoluted. I don't know if the guy who wrote that is simply stupid or it was written that way on purpose to obfuscate the meaning.
I also bought a couple Black Aces receivers. One is intended to be used with the SW birdshead grip, and the other WAS intended to be used with a pistol grip/Sig Brace. In fact I already have the pistol grip and tube parts for the Sig Brace. Of course one can always just use the pistol grip and tube w/o the SB to get the proper OAL. Post photos when you build yours.
Quote from: mac66 on November 20, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
ATF tends to make stuff up as they go without my rhyme or reason. Ask three different people get three different opinions which often contradict each other with convoluted logic. Since a stabilizing brace is a non regulated accessory, adding it to a pistol or "firearm" doesn't change the status of either i.e, you can eat cake with a spoon but that doesn't make it a fork. They basically said that for the pistols.
The wording of the letter is absolutely convoluted.
That is exactly my thought. The wording of the letter is poor. They said that holding the arm brace to your shoulder is not OK because "the brace would have been made/remade, designed/redesigned, from its originally intended purpose." The problem is the brace is not what the law defines or regulates as a firearm, the actual firearm is. The brace is an accessory only and even if used differently, still has an intended purpose of being attached to your arm for stabilization. The actual firearm in this case was not redesigned, remade, or intended to be fired from the shoulder.
Quote from: mac66 on November 20, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I also bought a couple Black Aces receivers. One is intended to be used with the SW birdshead grip, and the other WAS intended to be used with a pistol grip/Sig Brace. In fact I already have the pistol grip and tube parts for the Sig Brace. Of course one can always just use the pistol grip and tube w/o the SB to get the proper OAL. Post photos when you build yours.
Sound pretty much like we're working on the same projects. I already have the Mossberg 500 with a birdshead grip so that it maintains the 26"+ OAL. With the 5+1 tube it's actually a little longer than the absolute minimum it could be because the barrel was only taken back to the end of the tube. I didn't feel that ordering the replacement foreend and short barrel was worth the 1" in savings. Since the Black Aces receiver is actually a little longer than a standard receiver, I am going to see if the Maverick with a 5+1 tube and a standard pistol grip will maintain 26" OAL or not. If so, it might work better than a birdshead since the Maverick has a trigger guard mounted safety rather than than on the tang like the 500. If not, the PG with AR tube and Sig brace was the plan. The 500 works well with the birdshead because of the tang mounted safety, so I wouldn't likely install a standard PG on it at all.
Also, I'm looking forward to seeing if the Shockwave Technology blade stabilizer gets ATF approval. Half the weight, a third the cost, and more ergonomic than the Sig brace.
Quote from: jwebster on November 20, 2014, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: mac66 on November 20, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
ATF tends to make stuff up as they go without my rhyme or reason. Ask three different people get three different opinions which often contradict each other with convoluted logic. Since a stabilizing brace is a non regulated accessory, adding it to a pistol or "firearm" doesn't change the status of either i.e, you can eat cake with a spoon but that doesn't make it a fork. They basically said that for the pistols.
The wording of the letter is absolutely convoluted.
That is exactly my thought. The wording of the letter is poor. They said that holding the arm brace to your shoulder is not OK because "the brace would have been made/remade, designed/redesigned, from its originally intended purpose." The problem is the brace is not what the law defines or regulates as a firearm, the actual firearm is. The brace is an accessory only and even if used differently, still has an intended purpose of being attached to your arm for stabilization. The actual firearm in this case was not redesigned, remade, or intended to be fired from the shoulder.
Quote from: mac66 on November 20, 2014, 12:28:19 PM
I also bought a couple Black Aces receivers. One is intended to be used with the SW birdshead grip, and the other WAS intended to be used with a pistol grip/Sig Brace. In fact I already have the pistol grip and tube parts for the Sig Brace. Of course one can always just use the pistol grip and tube w/o the SB to get the proper OAL. Post photos when you build yours.
Sound pretty much like we're working on the same projects. I already have the Mossberg 500 with a birdshead grip so that it maintains the 26"+ OAL. With the 5+1 tube it's actually a little longer than the absolute minimum it could be because the barrel was only taken back to the end of the tube. I didn't feel that ordering the replacement foreend and short barrel was worth the 1" in savings. Since the Black Aces receiver is actually a little longer than a standard receiver, I am going to see if the Maverick with a 5+1 tube and a standard pistol grip will maintain 26" OAL or not. If so, it might work better than a birdshead since the Maverick has a trigger guard mounted safety rather than than on the tang like the 500. If not, the PG with AR tube and Sig brace was the plan. The 500 works well with the birdshead because of the tang mounted safety, so I wouldn't likely install a standard PG on it at all.
Also, I'm looking forward to seeing if the Shockwave Technology blade stabilizer gets ATF approval. Half the weight, a third the cost, and more ergonomic than the Sig brace.
Same wavelength for sure. One of mine with the birdshead was simply going to be cut down to the end of the mag tube. Inch longer, 14" vs. 15" bbl. $200 cheaper LOL. The other one is going to be cut down to 9 or 10" and the buffer tube on the other end. I hadn't heard of the SW blade stabilizer so I'll have to look into it. What Sig and other should do is simply name, rename their stabilizers as firearm stabilizer and not pistol stabilizer. Kind of pulls that rug out from under ATF's feet. Good luck with you project . Mine receivers are at my FFL, just haven't had time to pick them up since I was deer hunting until yesterday.
Picked up my receivers today, as well as a used Maverick 88 for a parts donor. Not going to be able to put it together right away, but thought I'd post a couple quick pictures. With the Black Aces receiver, Mossberg factory pistol grip, and a 5 shot magazine tube, the OAL is just at 26" right past the end of the tube. The barrel is right at 16" at that point. I'll probably cut it a quarter inch long just to be safe.
(http://i.imgur.com/8sY7ocTl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/r6WnXfBl.jpg)
Interesting. So with a SW birdshead grip you could go 14" on the barrel if you had the short Mossberg barrel. 15" or so (by my measurement) if you used the stock barrel/tube and 16" or so if you used the standard pistol grip.
I have an Omega stock adapter and extended buffer tube for one of mine. Together they are about 10" long. I figure I could cut the barrel and tube down to about 10" and also shorten the one piece slide/grip. Use a barrel/tube clamp to hold them together. Looking for a cheap tube on ebay now to cut down,
Yep, that looks about like the measurements I found as well. Post pictures and a guide when you get something put together. Even with just a birdshead grip I think you could get to under 14" on the barrel.
Quote from: jwebster on November 21, 2014, 11:07:17 AM
Yep, that looks about like the measurements I found as well. Post pictures and a guide when you get something put together. Even with just a birdshead grip I think you could get to under 14" on the barrel.
The Shockwave site says the birdshead grip and the 14" bbl gives an OAL of 26.5". We have to keep the OAL over 26" so whatever you take off the barrel you have to put on the other end.
The Black Aces receiver is about an inch longer than a standard receiver, so you should be able to go to a 12.5-13" barrel and still maintain 26".
Quote from: jwebster on November 21, 2014, 06:04:56 PM
The Black Aces receiver is about an inch longer than a standard receiver, so you should be able to go to a 12.5-13" barrel and still maintain 26".
That's good to know. Picking mine up from my FFL in a hour. Hopefully will get a chance to plug some parts into it this weekend. Got some parts ordered as well.
I got a couple pictures of the receiver/barrel/birdshead. Keeping the OAL at 26" you can cut down to about a 13" barrel.
(http://i.imgur.com/TBW8dALl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cFblDxSl.jpg)
Picked my receivers up last night. Cobbled one together today. The birdshead grip for one and the buffer tube stock converter thing for the other are on order. I did put an 18" bbl on it with no stock and got it working. Interestingly, my 10 round Saiga mags and drums work but the 5 round stock Saiga mag won't seat. Going to have to tweak it some. I did notice BA includes an extended mag follower. I could hand cycle rounds from my stick mags without modification, but it wouldn't pick up shells from the drums.
BTW, I ordered a green one and a black one. This one is marked green on the package but came out goldish looking.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/36ee4197-c9c5-4ad3-817b-b5de0c834bd6_zps7f2cf0c6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mac66/media/36ee4197-c9c5-4ad3-817b-b5de0c834bd6_zps7f2cf0c6.jpg.html)
What would be cool is if you could load the tube and feed from it when a mag is not there.
Quote from: Big John on November 22, 2014, 10:53:50 PM
What would be cool is if you could load the tube and feed from it when a mag is not there.
Ha, I thought of that but to make the mag work you have to remove the shell stops, shell lifter etc. I suppose one could still store shells in the tube somehow though getting access to them might be a problem.
I got my Maverick 88 version put together this weekend. Had a couple small issues. First, the slide release was too tight to the bolt, and when the trigger group was installed the release would not budge. Had to take just a little material off the release lever where it contacts the bolt to make it operate correctly. Second, when I fully retract the slide so that the bolt is behind the ejector, there is some interference when trying to close the action again. I have to physically push the ejector in slightly so the bolt can ride over it. I'll look into that more a bit later, and possibly add an overtravel stop to the slide/forearm. Before I do that I'm probably going to add a Mossberg action slide tube assembly so that I can change out the forearm. The Maverick has a single pinned connecting rod/arm and I want to have two arms and the ability to change the forearm. Since the rear of this firearm has a pistol grip I'll also change the forearm to have a pistol grip for better ergonomics. Whenever I actually get around to putting together the Mossberg version, I'll probably use the 14" barrel, birdshead grip, and standard horizontal forearm (again, for better ergonomics).
Here is the Maverick with the PG from a Mossberg 500 factory PGO firearm.
OAL: 26.5"
Barrel: 16"
(http://i.imgur.com/AUxqaBQl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2kEK8k5l.jpg)
nice jwebster.
The ejector from my 500 did not fit flush in my BA receiver. A couple minutes with a file (on the ejector) got it to sit flush
My omega stock adapter came in today. Fitted with a standard length buffer tube it makes the back end 17 3/4" long. That give me about 9" to work with on the barrel/tube end. Not sure if I am going to do it like that but it is a possibility.
I'll have to take a closer look at the ejector.
Looking forward to seeing how yours comes out.
OK, I took it apart again and realized that I must have bent the ejector a little when I removed it from the original receiver. I bent it back to normal shape and now it doesn't bind at all. Seems to be working just fine.
I put the birds head on it to see how it looked/felt and what the measurements were. With the birdshead grip and 16" barrel the OAL is 29.25", so 2.75" longer than with the factory pistol grip.
(http://i.imgur.com/15nTqlnl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/75ikWIOl.jpg)
Here is mine with the stock adapter and a buffer tube. OAL with the mag tube/slide is 32" so some cutting is needed to get it down to 26" or so. Not sure if I am going to end up using the stock adapter thing, I may just put it on my regular 500. Still fishing for a tube and barrel to cut down on ebay.
Trying to decided how to retain the barrel if you cut it off behind the retainer and also cut the tube down. Thoughts?
In regard to the tube, if you cut it down at the barrel end you loose the part that the barrel screws into. One could probably use a clamp that hold the tube and barrel together, but holding the barrel in by friction seems sketchy. I suppose one could drill and tap or pin the barrel to the clamp.
I think I have someone who can move the barrel retention loop back on a barrel. It is apparently silver soldered on so should be able to be removed.
If you cut the tube at the receiver end you would either have to rethread it or perhaps hold it in place with a cross pin or screw since you don't use it for ammo anyway. The would save the barrel retention at the other end.
I do like the look of the birdshead grip and ordered one. Should be here this week. I think the second receiver will be like the one you are showing.
Anyway, here's mine so far...If you look at the yard stick between 26 & 27" is how long it would be with the barrel and tube cut back.I would have to cut the slide handle back as well, but it is a one piece deal with the rails molded into it so not a problem.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/d4e8eac8-93d0-45af-bafe-e2ac90c26e55_zpsed015e3f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mac66/media/d4e8eac8-93d0-45af-bafe-e2ac90c26e55_zpsed015e3f.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/0ca991b1-d2de-429e-a7ae-90c266985987_zps01299ed6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mac66/media/0ca991b1-d2de-429e-a7ae-90c266985987_zps01299ed6.jpg.html)
Definitely an interesting looking adapter. Would look even better with a stabilizing brace.
For retaining the barrel, the easy way would be to use a clamp. There are a couple out there:
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/shotgun-sling-mounts/forward-sling-mount-mossberg-500-590-remington-870-prod54745.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/flashlights-accessories/accessory-mounts/magazine-extension-support-clamp-prod25705.aspx
But you're right, a friction fit may not be the best. You could have it permanently attached to either the tube or the barrel, but that still leaves one friction fit. If I was going to do it, I'd have a clamp soldered/epoxied to the barrel, then use a set screw (or two) to attach the clamp to the tube, since the tube won't be used as a magazine. That way you just cut off behind the barrel retention screw assembly and don't need to worry about removing and reattaching. Removal of the barrel would be done like normal, after removing the set screws from the mag tube.
As for your slide...I thought only the Maverick 88 had the single piece with pinned rails?
Quote from: jwebster on November 25, 2014, 11:07:50 AM
Definitely an interesting looking adapter. Would look even better with a stabilizing brace.
For retaining the barrel, the easy way would be to use a clamp. There are a couple out there:
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/shotgun-sling-mounts/forward-sling-mount-mossberg-500-590-remington-870-prod54745.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/flashlights-accessories/accessory-mounts/magazine-extension-support-clamp-prod25705.aspx
But you're right, a friction fit may not be the best. You could have it permanently attached to either the tube or the barrel, but that still leaves one friction fit. If I was going to do it, I'd have a clamp soldered/epoxied to the barrel, then use a set screw (or two) to attach the clamp to the tube, since the tube won't be used as a magazine. That way you just cut off behind the barrel retention screw assembly and don't need to worry about removing and reattaching. Removal of the barrel would be done like normal, after removing the set screws from the mag tube.
As for your slide...I thought only the Maverick 88 had the single piece with pinned rails?
Good idea about securing the clamp to the barrel, Didn't think of that.
The older 500s have the tube with the slide retaining things in it which uses the metal slide, removable wood fore stock and screw on thing. The newer ones with plastic stocks use the 88 type. I had an old parts gun 500 I got at a police auction back in the 80, it was missing the front end. Last year I finally got around to piecing it back together with parts from ebay and learned about the difference between my other old 500 and the new ones. I ended up buying a smooth mag tube and 88 slide etc and put those on my good 500 with the wood stock etc going on the beater. For this project I pulled the tube and plastic slide off the good one until I can order another. A new slide and plastic stock is about $40 on ebay which is what you would pay for just a used slide alone.
Oh, and here is a cropped photo of what mine might look like without the tube but the proper length. The problem with the stock adapter is that the stock would be too high to see the sights. You would need an optic on it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/f7851a9c-6df9-461a-93a8-3774c6ba5e61_zps6b3e8d4f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mac66/media/f7851a9c-6df9-461a-93a8-3774c6ba5e61_zps6b3e8d4f.jpg.html)
BTW, that pistol grip came with the adapter though I didn't realize it when I ordered it. Any AR15 type pistol grip will fit on it however.
Boy, if you could combine that with this kit... >:D. You'd "solve" the reloading issues with a bullpup
I suspect the mag would interfere with the pistol grip however.
http://www.bullpuparmory.com/BPU500_Bullpup_Shotgun_Kit_p/bpu-500.htm
Quote from: SteelThunder on November 25, 2014, 12:19:38 PM
Boy, if you could combine that with this kit... >:D. You'd "solve" the reloading issues with a bullpup
I suspect the mag would interfere with the pistol grip however.
http://www.bullpuparmory.com/BPU500_Bullpup_Shotgun_Kit_p/bpu-500.htm
Hey Kris welcome to the party! I kinda wondered if a bullpup would work with this receiver. I think you should buy one and try it. ;)
Quote from: jwebster on November 24, 2014, 01:49:38 PM
OAL: 26.5"
Barrel: 16"
(http://i.imgur.com/AUxqaBQl.jpg)
Dangit... I told myself I didn't want one of these. Then you go and post pictures... Gonna have to call a FFL tomorrow and ask if their fee is per item or per transaction!
http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-12-gauge-12-round-magazine-sgm-tactical-p-369.html
12 rounds, $20.
I've heard that the SGM mags don't work well with the Black Aces receivers. Promag seems to be good though.
Black Aces is also selling their own mags. Don't know how they work in the Saiga but they had good introductory price on them a couple weeks ago.
Well, I had ordered the SGM mags before posting here... Yeah, they don't work. At least not out of the box. The feed lips hold the shells too low and the bolt carrier just rides over the top round. Looks like it may work with the steel feed lip kit that came with the receiver since that should let the top round up higher. Shame with such a good price on them. Maybe I need a Saiga now.
Are you guys using the pro-mags with no modification, or installing the feed lip kit?
Ok, I just checked my mags and the regular stock 5 round Saiga mags don't work. My after market 10 round mags are marked AGP Arms and they do work.
What goes wrong with the stock Saiga mags? On the SGM mags, the feedlips are all polymer and hold the round a bit too low. The bolt carrier just rides over the top round and never pushes it out of the mag. I'm trying carefully modifying the SGM mags to install the metal feedlip piece that came with the receivers to see if that fixes things.
Quote from: Caliper on January 03, 2015, 02:19:23 AM
What goes wrong with the stock Saiga mags? On the SGM mags, the feedlips are all polymer and hold the round a bit too low. The bolt carrier just rides over the top round and never pushes it out of the mag. I'm trying carefully modifying the SGM mags to install the metal feedlip piece that came with the receivers to see if that fixes things.
Saiga mags are the same, the bolt rides over the shell without stripping it out.