Does anyone make a good one anymore? I'm building a multi purpose rifle and want a good chrome lined or melonite/nitrided 20 inch barrel but they seem to be scarce anymore. 16's and 18's are all over the place.... Thanks.
Depends on what you mean by good- and what your intended use is. ???
Criterion makes some very nice 20" barrels- I've been very happy with mine. Check out Fulton.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/ar-15-barrels.aspx (http://www.fulton-armory.com/ar-15-barrels.aspx)
Lots make good 20" barrels. Look at krieger, criterion, Wilson, Douglas, lothar walther, and the list goes on and on. I will say, though, that "good" and "chrome lined" is something of a contradiction, and I don't think you'll find anyone making a chrome lined barrel that's "good". Most will be stainless.
Thanks for the replies Gentlemen. I don't know how I missed Fulton, I used to buy lots of M1A stuff from them in the past. I was looking for a barrel assembly I guess. Agrievere, I have had very good luck with chrome lined barrels from Colt and Bushmaster (pre 2006).
Aye, there be good chrome lined barrels, but if ye be a true rifleman who takes care of his rifle before himself, I can't think of many situations where ye would need the main function of chroming (making the bore of the barrel more rust and corrosion resistant). There be an accuracy advantage to chf stainless barrels that do not typically come with a chromed option. If ye be only playing a 4moa game, chrome lined are fine and probably cheaper. I would build me AR with a chf stainless meself, tho. (Dang, this scotch I'm drinking is strong!)
Palmetto State Armory.
My DMR with a free floated CHF Chrome lined will do 1 moa with 69 gr GMM and 2 MOA with standard 62 gr reloads.
Krieger Barrels
Krieger Barrels, Inc. (http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/)
2024 Mayfield Rd
Richfield, WI 53076
262-628-8558 phone
262-628-8748 fax
Green Mountain used to carry and sell them. I run one on my primary service rifle upper. The problem with Kreiger is that you may find yourself waiting a significant time and then needing to have it chambered before install.
Give John Scandale a call at Keystone Precision. That is where I obtained mine.
Mike Davis
Eagle,
Agrivere speaks of match rifles and eating out X rings, and in that regard, he is right. No chrome bore can equal an air-gauged match barrel in stainless or CroMo with regards to accuracy.
However, for the Rifleman who merely seeks 4MOA, a mil spec 20" A2 chrome lined, 1:7 barrel will easily make 4MOA even with surplus ball ammo and will long outlast a match grade barrel in terms of maintaining that 4MOA. I have a Colt M16 A2 upper made in 1984 with well more than 8000 rounds through it (Agrivere is cringing along with all the other NRA HP shooters here) and it still shoots sub 2MOA with 55 grain hand loads from a rest. The brush literally slides through this bore with half the resistance of a new barrel.
Like any tool, a rifle is best chosen for its intended purpose. A match rifle should have a match-grade barrel and a battle rifle should have a chrome bore and gas system for wear and corrosion resistance. Yes, there are some new coatings that reportedly exceed chrome for wear and corrosion, but they are generally more spendy and surely there are a pile of new M16A2 barrels languishing about somewhere.
PH
BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) may have what you're looking for. I have one of their 20" A2 style uppers and I love it.
Quote from: 509gman on November 03, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
Aye, there be good chrome lined barrels, but if ye be a true rifleman who takes care of his rifle before himself, I can't think of many situations where ye would need the main function of chroming (making the bore of the barrel more rust and corrosion resistant). There be an accuracy advantage to chf stainless barrels that do not typically come with a chromed option. If ye be only playing a 4moa game, chrome lined are fine and probably cheaper. I would build me AR with a chf stainless meself, tho. (Dang, this scotch I'm drinking is strong!)
And again I drink from the bitter well of regret for introducing the Pirate Voice to the Alaska Appleseed crew at the Soldotna shoot...
Quote from: Medicus on November 04, 2014, 05:54:47 PM
Quote from: 509gman on November 03, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
Aye, there be good chrome lined barrels, but if ye be a true rifleman who takes care of his rifle before himself, I can't think of many situations where ye would need the main function of chroming (making the bore of the barrel more rust and corrosion resistant). There be an accuracy advantage to chf stainless barrels that do not typically come with a chromed option. If ye be only playing a 4moa game, chrome lined are fine and probably cheaper. I would build me AR with a chf stainless meself, tho. (Dang, this scotch I'm drinking is strong!)
And again I drink from the bitter well of regret for introducing the Pirate Voice to the Alaska Appleseed crew at the Soldotna shoot...
A true pirate would have been drinking rum, eh? Just sayin, matey.
+1 on the PSA 20" uppers. The only challenge is finding them in stock.
But Christmas is coming and they often have cool stuff available. Their 12 Days Sale will rip a huge hole in my wallet, it always does.
No experience on BCM stuff, but it has a good reputation... and if it can help even SPARTAN to shoot better - it's got to be awesome. **)
BF and I have ditched all the 20" BB and CMP/DCM/HP competition type barrels for our AR's.
We now run 20" PSA CHF chrome lined only with fast twist. They gobble any fodder, unlike some of the more accurate match barrels. For tough and unpredictable conditions, this style is hard to beat.
YMMV.
Mil-dot scopes and BUIS top them off.
Plenty good enough for a Rifleman and these will outshoot most folks under harsh field conditions.
If I can't get it done with these, I grab the 5R.
I got the uppers off GB and they were reasonably priced to boot.
Quote from: Medicus on November 04, 2014, 05:54:47 PM
Quote from: 509gman on November 03, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
Aye, there be good chrome lined barrels, but if ye be a true rifleman who takes care of his rifle before himself, I can't think of many situations where ye would need the main function of chroming (making the bore of the barrel more rust and corrosion resistant). There be an accuracy advantage to chf stainless barrels that do not typically come with a chromed option. If ye be only playing a 4moa game, chrome lined are fine and probably cheaper. I would build me AR with a chf stainless meself, tho. (Dang, this scotch I'm drinking is strong!)
And again I drink from the bitter well of regret for introducing the Pirate Voice to the Alaska Appleseed crew at the Soldotna shoot...
Yer full of yeself, that clearly be me highland accent bleeding through. Typical of ye, doctor; for tryin ta take tha credit.
If you're building piecemeal you may find a Colt take off. It will shoot well and maybe better, depends on luck of the draw.
Chrome will last longer from a user standpoint.
Thanks for the leads Gentlemen and Ladies, if any. I have always had really good results from chrome lined. Once they break in they all seem to shoot well, if it was a good barrel to begin with. I actually had Springfield, Inc. replace the worn out match barrel on my M1A with a new chrome lined and it's sub MOA with 168 handloads. My Bushmaster match rifle was ordered with a chrome lined 1x9 heavy an after breaking it in (500 rds) it shoots sub MOA with loads it likes also. The reason I want a CL barrel is to avoid replacing fragile match barrels at 6k to 7k rounds. The M1A NM rifle burned it's barrel at approx. 7500 rds. and I just like things that last. I do clean my equipment and want the chrome just for wear resistance.
Thanks again for the replies, I am still doing my homework on this project.
For those who might be curious, Glen Zediker (author and noted Highpower shooter) just wrote an article on AR-15 barrels. Some interesting and good information to be found here.
AR-15 Barrel Basics, Part 1 (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/ar-15-barrel-basics-part/)
AR-15 Barrel Basics, Part 2 (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/ar-15-barrel-basics-part-2/)
For what it's worth, here's what Glen has to say about chrome lined barrels:
QuoteWhat About Chrome-Lined barrels?
A lot of AR-15s have chrome-lined barrels. This is done to increase longevity. It also provides corrosion resistance. Chrome-lined barrels are dimensioned to allow for the application of the chrome layer. Thus, it's very unlikely to maintain superior dimensional consistency, if you think about it. Now, that's not to say it's a bad barrel. I've had Colt HBAR barrels that shot as well as all, and I've also had them that shot minute-of-washtub. I will say it's not a choice for anyone looking to build up a rifle he expects small groups from. It is a good choice for anyone else. They do, indeed, last a while.
Ultimately I think that choice comes down to what you expect from yourself and your rifle. As PHenry quite correctly pointed out, I expect 1/2 MOA or better accuracy from my match AR15's, and I expect to be able to put 10 shot groups on paper that are well under 2 MOA at 600 yards. The 10 ring on the 600 yard Highpower target is 2 MOA in size, so the more accurate my rifle and ammunition are, the more margin for error there is for me, the shooter, while still putting up good scores.
Different folks have different expectations from their barrels and that certainly factors in. While it's possible to find a chrome lined barrel or a hammer forged barrel that shoots great, the consistency of those manufacturing processes does not lend itself to high precision (and accuracy) with every barrel. Finding a really good barrel from those manufacturers becomes something of a lottery.
With a premium match grade barrel from Krieger, Bartlein, etc. you know every barrel will shoot great, every time. Of course the downside is you also pay a premium for them.
I built a AR last winter. I bought a 20" AR, HBAR, 1X8, Stainless, Match Quality, FA by Criterion from Fulton Armory for $249.95. The gas block is .750. The chamber allows use of .223 Rem & 5.56 mm NATO calibers. I've been feeding it 62 to 77 grain ammo, but haven't determined what it likes best yet as far as powder type and amount or exact bullet. When I get that figured out, that's the hand load I'll stick with for that rifle. Good luck with your build.
This is the setup I run, it works awesome! http://www.midwayusa.com/product/427098/dpms-ar-15-a3-upper-receiver-assembly-223-remington-1-in-8-twist-20-bull-barrel?cm_vc=ProductFinding
That looks interesting at a reasonable cost. Might you be able to quantify awesome?
Anyone here have any experience with the Windham Weaponry 20" 1:7 twist set up?
Quote from: scoutcamper on December 15, 2014, 01:16:44 AM
This is the setup I run, it works awesome! http://www.midwayusa.com/product/427098/dpms-ar-15-a3-upper-receiver-assembly-223-remington-1-in-8-twist-20-bull-barrel?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Quote from: Lonestar6 on December 15, 2014, 01:51:53 PM
That looks interesting at a reasonable cost. Might you be able to quantify awesome?
Anyone here have any experience with the Windham Weaponry 20" 1:7 twist set up?
Quote from: scoutcamper on December 15, 2014, 01:16:44 AM
This is the setup I run, it works awesome! http://www.midwayusa.com/product/427098/dpms-ar-15-a3-upper-receiver-assembly-223-remington-1-in-8-twist-20-bull-barrel?cm_vc=ProductFinding
I had no issues with it from day 1, I know NorCal22Gal ordered the same upper and she had a break in period of about 100rds before it started cycling correctly(standard DPMS). I have shot 3MOA with it, and it is capable of more. It also comes with a pre-installed sling stud and swivel for your convenience :--- .
I highly recommend Palmetto State Armory's 20" CL uppers. They use FN barrels, which are very high quality. The CHF one is quite accurate. My plain old button rifled one, the same thing FN puts on the M-16s they make for the Legions, is very good too, and after free floating holds 2 MOA with M855. No, it's not what you'd want on a game gun that doesn't get run hard, shot in adverse conditions, and always gets cleaned after every match, but for a 2A purpose rifle it is very hard to beat. CL makes for more reliable feeding as well as having a barrel life about twice that of SS barrels and 3x that of unlined CMV barrels.
The only thing I don't like about those barrels is the ass-backward gov't profile that is heavier after the gas block than before. I am planning on sending mine to Adco soon to remedy this, and turn it down to A1 profile.
I just ordered a 20" barrel kit from Del-Ton for my first AR build. They seemed to have good reviews, and it was a very good deal.
Chrome-Moly steel (ie, not chrome lines)has worked for the M1's for more than 70 years now and 1903's for over 100 years, launching 150gr bullets at 2600+ fps. It is my first choice for a non match accurate barrel generally with a wylde chamber.
1st choice for a match barrel is stainless with a Wylde Chamber.
Quote from: Red Alder Ranch on December 22, 2014, 12:59:53 PM
I just ordered a 20" barrel kit from Del-Ton for my first AR build. They seemed to have good reviews, and it was a very good deal.
How about a range review when you get her up and running?
I would be curious to know what Buttstock and Buffer you went with to support the 20" barrel.
Quote from: Lonestar6 on February 02, 2015, 03:15:49 PM
I would be curious to know what Buttstock and Buffer you went with to support the 20" barrel.
A2 stock and rifle buffer/spring.
I plan on sticking with an A2 also.
I'm running a Magpull CTR on my 20 inch A2. The rifle works just fine with the carbine buffer in my experience.
What weight buffer jm? I'm thinking about building a "20 inch carbine" myself.
No idea, it's the one that came with the CTR package when I bought it.
That pretty well answers the question. The buffer is likely in the 2.9 oz range. I was wondering how, with the longer barrel, the gas pressure was impacted; but apparently it is not impacted enough to need a different weight buffer in your set up. That to me is a useful bit of information, thanks!
I have heard the H2 is the equivalent of the rifle buffer system in a carbine receiver extension. however, I ran a plain old carbine buffer in my 20" AR for many hundreds of rounds and several Run 'n Guns. It always worked great, so I never bothered trying anything else.
I have since changed that rifle over to a Mapul fixed stock setup with A2 buffe. That was done mostly for improved cheek weld for scope use.
I have read about H2 and H3 buffers, but don't want to buy extra buffers than are necessary to switch between a 16 and 20 inch barreled upper. I prefer an adjustable carbine stock as my best LOP is a little shy of what the A2 stock accommodates. It is good to know I can start with the standard carbine buffer with some confidence.
I just built a National match AR-15 with a Shilen 4-ratchet 20" service rifle barrel (came with hand lapped matching bolt), a Giessele NM trigger, Ares NiB BCG, Armalite FF tube (with standard A2 handguards) and clamp-on front sight. For the buttstock, I bought a UTG A2 kit (comes with buffer, tube and spring) from Dvor.com for $50 (they're on sale there right now for $47) and then bought an A1 buttstock shell and top screw from Fulton Armory for around $25 and replaced the A2 with the A1. So now it's A1 LOP but with the A2 buttplate which has the checkered finish and sharper edges than the A1 so it won't slip when in the shoulder pocket. Been busy so haven't had the chance to shoot it yet but Shilen AR barrels are supposed to be sub MOA with match ammo.
That sounds like a sweet build. Thanks for the stock information.
LS6
The Magpul MOE fixed rifle stock is actually a little shorter than an A2 stock as well. I had to add an extra-thick PRS butt pad to bring mine to ideal length. It is a very nice stock -- I consider it a significant upgrade from the GI piece. It is better for storage, since the entire butt hinges open, instead of just a little trap door. Also it is set up to accept side mount QD swivels, which is how I like to mount my slings.
I have recently been drooling over the PRS stock for its adjustability for length and rise, but cannot justify the dollars.
I think that most average-sized folks would find the adjustable cheek piece on the PRS to be useless for Rifleman-style shooting, as it is well to the rear of where your cheek should be resting if you are turkey necked out. If it were in the right place, it would interfere with the operation of the charging handle. It is also inordinately heavy.
I had some of the same thoughts. With its charging handle, the m16/m4/ar15 platform was not meant to have a cheek riser.
I find that almost all AR offset optics mounts are too high to obtain a good cheekweld but I like the height of the standard iron sights. Armalite makes the only offset scope mount for an AR that is at the same height as the irons of an A2, and it's only $89 on their website. Probably will interfere with BUIS though, so likely a good option only if you remove the rear BUIS or don't run irons.
Thanks, I will check that out.
Quote from: Bluesteel on February 07, 2015, 10:56:56 PM
I find that almost all AR offset optics mounts are too high to obtain a good cheekweld but I like the height of the standard iron sights. Armalite makes the only offset scope mount for an AR that is at the same height as the irons of an A2, and it's only $89 on their website. Probably will interfere with BUIS though, so likely a good option only if you remove the rear BUIS or don't run irons.
Pm Itsansks. He's got a mount that gets you a perfect cheek weld and nose-to-charging-handle index.
Quote from: Bluesteel on February 07, 2015, 03:08:41 PM
I just built a National match AR-15 with a Shilen 4-ratchet 20" service rifle barrel (came with hand lapped matching bolt), a Giessele NM trigger, Ares NiB BCG, Armalite FF tube (with standard A2 handguards) and clamp-on front sight. For the buttstock, I bought a UTG A2 kit (comes with buffer, tube and spring) from Dvor.com for $50 (they're on sale there right now for $47) and then bought an A1 buttstock shell and top screw from Fulton Armory for around $25 and replaced the A2 with the A1. So now it's A1 LOP but with the A2 buttplate which has the checkered finish and sharper edges than the A1 so it won't slip when in the shoulder pocket. Been busy so haven't had the chance to shoot it yet but Shilen AR barrels are supposed to be sub MOA with match ammo.
Where did you find the clamp-on front sight? I've been looking for one for a while but can't find them anywhere.
Clamp-on is available from Armalite but you have to call them to get on a list as it's a special order now and not regularly stocked. It took about 3-4 weeks to get mine. The sales guys said that they probably weren't going to get stock in until spring, when folks are building up NM rifles. Their's is the best, as it doesn't use set screws that gouge into the barrel. They make 2 kinds, one with the sling mount and one without. You do have to be aware of the spacing from the rearward face of the sight to the gas port though, as this is made specifically for NM builds and would require a spacer for most barrels (to make up for the missing handguard endplate thickness)
http://www.armalite.com/Catitem2.aspx?Category=07033031-2a2e-439c-a701-edf0d7327c93
In my searches for a clamp-on, this appeared to be the 2nd best option for the $$:
http://www.shop.dezarms.com/product.sc;jsessionid=C805801312359885F8CB50FE8639EE3C.qscstrfrnt01?productId=27&categoryId=8
I found a way of mounting a scope on an AR that gives good cheek weld and eye relief. The 6" version of this YHM riser: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2696314296/yankee-hill-machine-extended-picatinny-style-riser-mount-ar-15-flat-top-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Plus Vortex Tactcal Low 30mm rings are perfect for me. It basically puts the sights at the same height as an A1/A2 rifle. No, none of the folding rear sights I've had will fit under the scope. That's OK -- I can zero a rear sight, remove it, and keep it in that Magpul buttstock (along with a full cleaning kit). The nice thing about the riser setup is that if your head size requires a different height, just use different rings. Here is what it looks like on one of mine:
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk201/henschman/guns/image_zps2caa7e55.jpg)