I'm assuming the eponymous Itsansks has. After some brief trigger time last week I do believe it's possible and have set it as my new marksmanship goal. The only mods I've done to mine are the trigger job by kivaarri, a Murphy's spring return firing pin (shouldn't affect accuracy + or -) and a GI sling on an hk style hook. So I'm looking for testimonials, who's done it? Whos done it at full distance? Who's done it with an AK47 for that matter (last event we had one come close)?
We had an instructor in IN. that shot rifleman scores with an SKS regularly yes even KD. I also believe Unbridled Liberty shot rifleman scores with his as well.
I have done so with an AK bot 47 and 74, Rifleman Ben shot KD rifleman with a scoped 74, XD man has done it with a 47 and a 74, I'm sure there are many more who have put in the effort to learn their rifle or just met the challenge. It is not an easy task but very doable and repeatable as you get to know your rifle.
The other Russian rifle the Mosin Nagant, I have never personally seen anyone who has shot a Rifleman score with one. It has probably been done but not often.
The rifle is certainly capable of it, but I have not quite done it yet. Next time I shoot at Atterbury I am going to use it. The Kivarri trigger job is a waste of money IMO, as is the firing pin spring "upgrade". I highly recommend the Tech Sights though. Mine are 1 click per minute on windage and elevation. I removed the sling swivel from the side of the buttstock and attached it to the forestock, and I use a GI web sling. Good luck and let us know how you do.
UL
Agree on the firing pin, heartily disagree on the trigger job. Mine had about three "grit points" where it would hang up before getting to the actual release before I sent it in. Now it's like a mushy two stage, there's a liiitttle bit of travel after taking up the slack but it is much much better than before. Tried the tech sights but I couldn't get properly indexed enough to get em to quit punching me in the eye pro when firing. User error/preference, but I can get 4moa groups sling unsupported with the stock sights and silver bear ammo anyway. I'm finding ammo selection at 25M isn't super critical either, that guy with the AK was using Tula to good effect. Maybe at full distance I'll find it might come into play, I dunno.
Quote from: 509gman on October 23, 2014, 04:38:37 AM
Agree on the firing pin, heartily disagree on the trigger job. Mine had about three "grit points" where it would hang up before getting to the actual release before I sent it in. Now it's like a mushy two stage, there's a liiitttle bit of travel after taking up the slack but it is much much better than before. Tried the tech sights but I couldn't get properly indexed enough to get em to quit punching me in the eye pro when firing. User error/preference, but I can get 4moa groups sling unsupported with the stock sights and silver bear ammo anyway. I'm finding ammo selection at 25M isn't super critical either, that guy with the AK was using Tula to good effect. Maybe at full distance I'll find it might come into play, I dunno.
Oh yeah. I forgot, I added about 2" LOP to the buttstock to give me enough eye relief. Those Chinese must not shoot much from prone.
UL
You guys doing changes to your SKS will want to remember that if you change one thing on it you have to change multiple things to keep it legal. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble, but I don't think it's worth the trouble to risk it.
This is sort of true. Sights, length of pull, and slings are not part of 922r. There are 20 items
that are, and USC 18 922r law was designed to avoid a person buying a sporterized and legal
semi auto AK47, then adding the evil features back with a parts kit.
Quote922(r) cover assembly of rifles and shotguns from imported parts in the case of the SKS rifles with 10 rd. fixed mag as in your Russian for example it covers after market modification you make to the rifle.
The Russian SKS rifle has 14 original imported parts in it's original military configuration,here is the list of parts the BATF counts. Removing any one of the listed parts then put you under 922(r) and you will have to remove the required number of the original imported parts (4) and replace them with (4) US MADE parts so that the rifle only has 10 of the original imported parts remaining on it. So basically if your rifle is in it's original configuration 922(r) doesn't apply to you until you do something to the rifle to alter it.
1. Receiver.
2. Barrel.
3. Muzzle attachment. Yugo M59/66A1 Only
4. Bolt.
5. Bolt carrier.
6. Gas piston.
7. Trigger housing.
8. Trigger.
9. Hammer.
10. Sear.
11. Disconnector.
12. Buttstock.
13. Forearm/handguard.
14. Magazine body.
15. Follower.
So, if one were to replace the trigger pack with an American one, one would have replaced items 7-10, and have gone from a "foreign rifle" to an "American rifle with less than ten counted parts."
HOWEVER, and this is a big however, a stock SKS does not fall under this because it is not a "semi auto assault weapon."
QuoteSemiautomatic assault weapon. (a) Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as:
(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models),
(2) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil,
(3) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70),
(4) Colt AR-15,
(5) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC,
(6) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12,
(7) Steyr AUG,
(8) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22, and
(9) Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
(b) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,
(3) A bayonet mount,
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and
(5) A grenade launcher;
The SKS is not on the list and, as long as you keep the stock magazine OR don't have a bayo lug and a flash suppressor, it is not a SAW, and thus exempt from 922r.
If you DO restock it and run detachable mages, then you had best comply with 922r. If you just want to do an Appleseed sling, sights, and trigger job, then you will be ok with the stock SKS.
Quote from: 509gman on October 23, 2014, 04:38:37 AM
Agree on the firing pin, heartily disagree on the trigger job. Mine had about three "grit points" where it would hang up before getting to the actual release before I sent it in. Now it's like a mushy two stage, there's a liiitttle bit of travel after taking up the slack but it is much much better than before. Tried the tech sights but I couldn't get properly indexed enough to get em to quit punching me in the eye pro when firing. User error/preference, but I can get 4moa groups sling unsupported with the stock sights and silver bear ammo anyway. I'm finding ammo selection at 25M isn't super critical either, that guy with the AK was using Tula to good effect. Maybe at full distance I'll find it might come into play, I dunno.
Glad you are happy with yours. Of course every rifle is different, but here is what Kivaari claims: "With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency".
Safety: can't say my reworked trigger is safer than the original. Who's to say?
Clear 2 stage operation: Absolutely
not. It is one long mushy pull until it breaks. No feedback whatsoever as to when you are approaching release.
Lowered pull: Can't really say for sure but if so, it is not dramatic.
Much less creep: Nope.
Smoothness: Definitely
yes.
Repeatability: Perhaps, but without any 2-stage tactile feedback, who's to say?
Consistency: OK, it is consistently long and smooth.
For me, it was not worth the money. I would encourage anybody contemplating this trigger job to shoot it as-is for several hundred rounds and just work on the SHF, 6 Steps, and NPOA, unless of course you have money to burn.
UL
Quote from: Big John on October 23, 2014, 11:54:15 AM
This is sort of true. Sights, length of pull, and slings are not part of 922r. There are 20 items
that are, and USC 18 922r law was designed to avoid a person buying a sporterized and legal
semi auto AK47, then adding the evil features back with a parts kit.
Quote922(r) cover assembly of rifles and shotguns from imported parts in the case of the SKS rifles with 10 rd. fixed mag as in your Russian for example it covers after market modification you make to the rifle.
The Russian SKS rifle has 14 original imported parts in it's original military configuration,here is the list of parts the BATF counts. Removing any one of the listed parts then put you under 922(r) and you will have to remove the required number of the original imported parts (4) and replace them with (4) US MADE parts so that the rifle only has 10 of the original imported parts remaining on it. So basically if your rifle is in it's original configuration 922(r) doesn't apply to you until you do something to the rifle to alter it.
1. Receiver.
2. Barrel.
3. Muzzle attachment. Yugo M59/66A1 Only
4. Bolt.
5. Bolt carrier.
6. Gas piston.
7. Trigger housing.
8. Trigger.
9. Hammer.
10. Sear.
11. Disconnector.
12. Buttstock.
13. Forearm/handguard.
14. Magazine body.
15. Follower.
So, if one were to replace the trigger pack with an American one, one would have replaced items 7-10, and have gone from a "foreign rifle" to an "American rifle with less than ten counted parts."
HOWEVER, and this is a big however, a stock SKS does not fall under this because it is not a "semi auto assault weapon."
QuoteSemiautomatic assault weapon. (a) Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as:
(1) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models),
(2) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil,
(3) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70),
(4) Colt AR-15,
(5) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC,
(6) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12,
(7) Steyr AUG,
(8) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22, and
(9) Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
(b) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,
(3) A bayonet mount,
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and
(5) A grenade launcher;
The SKS is not on the list and, as long as you keep the stock magazine OR don't have a bayo lug and a flash suppressor, it is not a SAW, and thus exempt from 922r.
If you DO restock it and run detachable mages, then you had best comply with 922r. If you just want to do an Appleseed sling, sights, and trigger job, then you will be ok with the stock SKS.
Interesting that the bayonet is not listed. ???
UL
If it has a bayo it's supposed to be a C&r and cannot be altered. If it doesn't have a bayo it is illegal to put one on.
I shot an expert score with mine awhile ago. Here is a picture of my setup and the target. I attached a USGI websling by using the leather strap from a Chinese SKS sling and attached it to the front swivel on the gas block, then filed the rear clip down so that it would fit the 1" rear swivel. I used the standard open sights when I shot this target but I've since then had Tech-Sights installed on it. This has been a great set up for me. I would say the best ammo for this rifle is the brass cased Yugoslavian M67 ammo (though it is corrosive). I love the SKS and it was my bread and butter for awhile until I got my M1A.
(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll302/anthonyjb04/IMG_1660_zps3f03a41b.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/anthonyjb04/media/IMG_1660_zps3f03a41b.jpg.html)
QuoteGlad you are happy with yours. Of course every rifle is different, but here is what Kivaari claims: "With my match/target SKS trigger work, you get it all--- safety, clear 2 stage operation, lowered pull, much less creep, smoothness, repeatability, consistency".
Safety: can't say my reworked trigger is safer than the original. Who's to say?
Clear 2 stage operation: Absolutely not. It is one long mushy pull until it breaks. No feedback whatsoever as to when you are approaching release.
Lowered pull: Can't really say for sure but if so, it is not dramatic.
Much less creep: Nope.
Smoothness: Definitely yes.
Repeatability: Perhaps, but without any 2-stage tactile feedback, who's to say?
Consistency: OK, it is consistently long and smooth.
I second that. I had Kivaari work on mine. Wasn't too impressed with it. It made the trigger marginally better but that was it. Wasn't really worth the $60 in my opinion.
Ul, the bayonet is technically a rifle accessory, the mount is part of the rifle.
509, ok, that makes sense. Upshot of all this is no one is going to check your sights or trigger pack for originality,
but high speed low drag banana mags might be a different story.
SKSrifleman, nice setup. My Norinco has minute of barn door. I don't know whether to work on it or my Mosin first.
(http://s7.postimg.org/48z8lw12j/Picture1109141712_1.jpg)
You asked about AKs? Both my Polish Tantal (bottom) and my brother (RifleBen's) Saiga will and have shot rifleman- any error or fault is on the shooter! These are both 5.45 AKs, we use 7n6 surplus ammo. Last week Ben was home and we went out and did some shooting at 100 yards, I tried the Wolf 69 gr commercial ammo in my Tantal, and got some very impressive results- three separate 1.5-2 MOA groups prone with the loop sling ;) Both of these guns typically shoot under 4 MOA, often well under, in field matches.
The myths about the inaccuracy of AKs, and SKSs, are greatly exaggerated. The more real truth is that most people don't really bother to put effort into shooting them like a rifleman, and the don't come ideally set up for an Appleseed. But with a little work, these guns will hold their own against or even beat a fancy AR. Set up a good swivel for a GI sling, get a stock set up that truly fits you and your optic, and *if* necessary for you, use a more IMC and precision friendly sight like Tech Sights or a Red Dot, or a scope. I could never shoot my Tantal better than 3-4 MOA with the irons, but can shoot much better with a dot with my bad eyes.
Quote from: Noah2A on November 09, 2014, 06:27:49 PM
(http://s7.postimg.org/48z8lw12j/Picture1109141712_1.jpg)
But with a little work, these guns will hold their own against or even beat a fancy AR.
I was with you right up until you said that. Sorry, that's going a bit far IMHO.
Quote from: Niskibum on November 10, 2014, 10:10:21 AM
I was with you right up until you said that. Sorry, that's going a bit far IMHO.
I only say that because I see it happen. Maybe a more accurate and detailed sentiment would be, "with a little work, these guns can get to the point that the difference in performance between them and a good AR can be made up by the shooter". The shooter is not limited by the right AK. A good AR will beat it on paper, but both guns are more accurate than the shooter. AR iron sights knock AK irons out of the park for sure.
A good AR will beat it on more than paper. It will beat in in KD with more hits at longer ranges. At the first milseed run for a group of Designated Marksmen from the SCNG, at the end of training developed by Boltgun71 and using both AMU DSM and Appleseed methods the students shot on the MG range to 700 yards with M4's and Acogs. Their first round hit percentage was around 70% on a C target at that range.
I have shot AR's and AK's for almost 30 years. AK's just don't shoot that well. They were never made to do that. That's not to say that you can't hit something that far, but you wont run anywhere near a 70% first round hit rate. We have seen this in popup shoots at Ramseur and I think you guys saw it in OH as well. There you were using 6 moa bullseyes and I think that the high AK shot a 383 of 500 in a 200 yard reduced with only 10 shots at slow prone. For reference that is a 77% on a reduced course.
I have seen AMU trained designated marksmen with custom AK's and electronic and optical sights make only 60% hits on popups at 400 yards. Now those popups were not full exposures, but the winning shooters were hitting 90%+.
That said, with good ammo, an good sks or an ak can shoot a rifleman score. But at distance, they are not generally a match for a similarly configured AR.
Go***mn it! Now it's an ak vs ar thread! Thanks guys.
#1 problem with an SKS or an AK is whether or not the rifle barrel is in good condition. The typical Russian 7.62x39 ammo (along with just about every other caliber they make) has a bi-metallic jacket, comprised of a lead core surrounded by a (very thin) steel jacket, gilded with copper. I'll say that again. Their bullets have a steel jacket. Steel jacket vs steel rifle barrel- the barrel will lose accuracy very quickly, especially if it is subjected to full-auto fire. Find an AK or SKS with an as-new barrel, and you'll have a nice, accurate rifle on your hands. Find one that's been fed a healthy diet of Russian ammo, and you'll be hit & miss.
#2 problem is ammunition consistency. Even when you've got a great rifle, it can be a daunting task to achieve sub-four-minute accuracy with these rifles, and the problem can be the ammunition. When I first started reloading, I tried loading a batch of 7.62x39, and found that my groups shrank from ~4moa prone to ~2moa. The velocity spread on a single box of factory wolf "military classic" ammo spanned over 150fps. Bullet weights on a pulled box of ammo varied by a full 3 grains, and the powder charge varied by nearly as much. Since everyone "knows" that the SKS/AK rifles are only capable of minute-of-garbage can, the ammo manufacturers don't seem to hold their 7.62x39 ammo to strict quality control standards- as long as it goes bang safely, it has done its job. That said, there are some outliers in the quality control department: PriviPartizan (PPU) makes a fantastic load, Silver Bear isn't far behind (in the 154gr bullet weight, never tested any of their 124gr FMJ's) as well as the Yugoslavian surplus ammo. Winchester, Wolf, Tula and many others that I've personally tested were found to be worthless for any distances beyond 100yds.
With regards to making the Rifleman score on an AQT, with an SKS. Yep, been there, done that, got the patch to prove it. My rifle (a 1978 Yugo) was wearing the full complement of Tapco gear at the time, plus a set of tech-sights. I used a short rail section attached to the bottom of the hand guard to mount a sling swivel to, and used a USGI sling; with factory ammo (Golden Tiger) I was able to achieve a score of 218. With my hand loads, that score went up to 231.
I then traded the rifle for a wonderful 1911.
Since that time, I have had the opportunity to handle and shoot a number of different SKS rifles, and find myself being drawn back to the stock trim- no tech sights, no detachable mags, just a solid, inexpensive rifle that gets fed a healthy diet of good ammo. The hardest part to really master about this rifle is feeding it from stripper clips. Takes a good bit of practice to become proficient, and much longer to become fluid.
Those with marginal eyesight will have a helluva time using the factory irons, but those with good eyes should not find the sights to be a hindrance. I have found that the sliding elevation adjustment tracks pretty closely when using M67 surplus ammo, not so much for the commercial-grade stuff. Dealing with this is simply a matter of learning your rifle and its come-ups with a particular brand and type of ammo- that is to say, a standard Rifleman task with ANY rifle.
My sks came looking pretty new, willing to bet unfired. Slugged the bore this weekend. Grooves are at .312 and the lands are right at about .300 . Has anyone had experience with the sellier and bellot load?
Quote from: jmdavis on November 11, 2014, 01:10:33 AM
There you were using 6 moa bullseyes and I think that the high AK shot a 383 of 500 in a 200 yard reduced with only 10 shots at slow prone. For reference that is a 77% on a reduced course.
That said, with good ammo, an good sks or an ak can shoot a rifleman score. But at distance, they are not generally a match for a similarly configured AR.
I'm sorry for the AR/AK war- never my intention and I doubt it was jmdavis's intent to argue either. I had to laugh here because that 200 yard AK score of 383 was mine in September! **) I just found that intensely ironic and humorous. small world of Appleseed. When I said "compete with an AR" I meant 3-4 MOA consistently, able to shoot rifleman. Accurate enough you have to be a very good shooter to out pace the rifle.
I'm excited for next season's matches because I improved my score at every match and I know I can do much better!
back to AK/SKS stuff- my brother has shot over 3500 rounds of 5.45 7n6 corrosive, bimetal jacketed ammo through his Saiga and it is as accurate as ever. Obviously, that was a new gun. Anyone have an idea what sort of bimetal round counts it would take to wear the barrel enough to lose accuracy?
Itsansks has worn his psl barrel to that point, he'll have to pipe up with the round count, but I know it's pretty high. It would be higher if regular copper jacketed lead bullets had been used is the point being made. But you'll prolly save more than the cost of the new barrel by shooting the cheap stuff.
509 is right about my PSL. I've personally fired over 5k rounds through it, and what started as a sub 2MOA rifle, with surplus ammo, is now a 4MOA + rifle with hand loads. It was fed a healthy, consistent diet of Russian surplus 7.62x54r, and while well maintained, (externally, the rifle is as-new) its barrel is now beyond the point of usability.
QuoteAnyone have an idea what sort of bimetal round counts it would take to wear the barrel enough to lose accuracy?
The folks over at luckygunner.com have done an extensive test, comparing the differences between Federal 5.56 ammo and the Russian commercial imports; testing was done with four rifles, each fed 10,000 rounds of specific manufacturers ammo. The results of that test can be found here:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
While their final tabulation shows that it is cost effective to shoot the Russian Bi-metal ammo in an AR, the cost differences in rebarreling an AK/SKS/PSL vs rebarreling an AR are likely to make a significant difference. I'll be able to tell you shortly what it costs me to rebarrel the PSL.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on November 11, 2014, 10:34:00 PM
509 is right about my PSL. I've personally fired over 5k rounds through it, and what started as a sub 2MOA rifle, with surplus ammo, is now a 4MOA + rifle with hand loads. It was fed a healthy, consistent diet of Russian surplus 7.62x54r, and while well maintained, (externally, the rifle is as-new) its barrel is now beyond the point of usability.
:'( That was a sweet rifle, hope you can get it rebarreled.
New barrel (stainless steel, heavy profile, 18", 1:10 twist, threaded) is in-hand, waiting for the 'smith to have an opening. Hope to have it back in action by Christmas.
Thanks for the info guys. Sub 2 MOA shooting surplus x54r? that's very impressive. I wonder when my brother's 5.45 Saiga will start to show the effects of wear. I shot it in the September 200y field match, both my prone groups were around or under 3 MOA still, when the gun was at about 3500 rounds. My brother has shot 2 MOA and under with it many times including KD.
It would be a real pain to rebarrel an AK.
PSL set up for Appleseeds? That's something I would like to see haha. My brother has considered a 7.62x54 semi before.
Usually with a barrel will start to lose it's long range accuracy long before it loses it's 100 and 200 accuracy. 3000 is often the point that good shooters will see a falling X count at 600 yards. At that time many will make that upper a practice gun and get another 3000+ rounds out of it. I would shoot it until the accuracy really showed issues. That may be difficult to tell though with surplus ammo.
I recommend way more dryfire and .22lr practice than live fire with a centerfire rifle. Even if you ignore the ammo cost, even cheap barrels and having them fitted run a few hundred $.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 11, 2014, 11:31:20 PM
Usually with a barrel will start to lose it's long range accuracy long before it loses it's 100 and 200 accuracy. 3000 is often the point that good shooters will see a falling X count at 600 yards. At that time many will make that upper a practice gun and get another 3000+ rounds out of it. I would shoot it until the accuracy really showed issues. That may be difficult to tell though with surplus ammo.
I recommend way more dryfire and .22lr practice than live fire with a centerfire rifle. Even if you ignore the ammo cost, even cheap barrels and having them fitted run a few hundred $.
Dry fire is the best. Not too often you find free fun and practice like that in this world. I dry fired the entire match the day before, had to shake the cobwebs off after a month at school.
It is helpful both as a shooter and as a teacher to dryfire a stage or part of a stage before you actually shoot it. I have found that my performance always is above average when I do this. The secret is making sure that you do it.
It helps if you dryfire and visualize at the same time. In the house sometimes I imagine that I am on the 200 yard line at Viale at Camp Perry and the Sun is just starting to come up over Lake Erie to my front, right. Knowing the effect of the sun on my front sight, I put on a click of windage to the right. Rehearse the shot as accurately as you can. Try to feel it. I think about how it feels to shoot a ten, and how I know a good shot before ever checking the scope. Then I bring the rifle up, seat it in my shoulder, go through my shot process and break the shot. Ten like that is a good score on a National Match Course. Twenty like that is a good score on a Regional 800. But, thirty like that, taxing both your body and your concentration, thirty good shots like that is a GOOD dryfire practice.
Using the crawl, walk run analogy, you start with 10 perfectly executed shots (even if it takes you 20 to get them). Once you have mastered 10 perfect dryfires in a row, you go to 20, then to 30. This is not casual training. It is how national champions train. But the results can benefit every shooter.
Concentrate, be critical and believe in yourself.