I've been having a problem on the firing line...and it's opening up my groups! :sos:
Fellow instructors have worked one-on-one with me on my prone position, but they can't seem to figure it out. My NPOA is spot-on, and I'm completely still--or so it seems-- from the beginning of the shot to the end (no flinching, bucking or jerking). Nobody can perceive any muzzle movement, and I feel completely relaxed and focused, mentally and physically. All my steady hold factors, they say, are perfect-- except one...
When acquiring my NPOA, I'll get my steady hold factors down, close my eyes, clear my mind, breathe in, breathe out, relax-- and my support elbow will roll out from under the rifle, until it's hyper-extended 3-4 inches to the right of my trigger guard (I shoot right-handed). It feels perfectly comfortable there, and I'm not even aware that it's so far to the right. I can't rest on my support elbow when it's directly under the rifle-- if I do, I get an unbearable, fiery shot of pain from my shoulder blade through my bicep and it feels like something's about to "give out." (You might be able to see the hyper-extension in my profile avatar.)
After a couple years of this, I'm convinced that it's not a sling tension issue, and it's not a handstop issue either. It's a joint problem. This happens on any rifle I shoot, including my Ruger 10/22 and my M1A. The targets downrange don't show any particular stringing; just a round, centered 5-6 MOA group (when my last qualifying AQT-- over two years ago-- had stacked shots! !@#) ).
Anyone have experience with hyper-flexible shoulders? If this helps, my support side shoulder (left) is hyper-flexible from side to side, but I do not have full "vertical" rotation in either shoulder. (I'm not even able to perform the motions for "Hitler" and "Eagle" exercises; raising either arm 90 degrees or higher, especially while lying down, will cause the adjacent shoulder to dislocate... very, very painfully.) Also, I have tendinitis in both biceps, and beginning stages of carpal tunnel in my right wrist. Will a Creedmor jacket or shoulder brace help keep my shoulder in place? Any suggestions?
Your support elbow does not need to be directly under the rifle. It needs to be as close to the center as you can get it without causing pain. Also, make sure that you are not on the elbow but rather the flat area above the elbow. When you go into position extend and invert the elbow without going to the other side of the rifle. This is something that you can practice at home. I don't think that the jacket will resolve your issue, but you could try to find a high power shooter around the same size as you and try the jacket. Make sure that the shoulders are tight for prone and generally one only buckles the top couple of buckles.
But try keeping your elbow as close as you can to the rifle while still on the left without pain. Also, if your group has opened to 5-6 moa that makes me wonder if you really have front sight focus. Are you using irons or a scope?
The elbow should be directly under the sling not the rifle, then you will be able to "relax into the sling" without the flop to the joint limit.
Thanks for your help, everyone! :)
Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2014, 04:57:02 PMYour support elbow does not need to be directly under the rifle. It needs to be as close to the center as you can get it without causing pain. Also, make sure that you are not on the elbow but rather the flat area above the elbow. When you go into position extend and invert the elbow without going to the other side of the rifle. This is something that you can practice at home.
True-- we've had Riflemen whose shoulders aren't flexible enough to get their elbows all the way underneath the rifle. This hadn't occurred to me before, actually. I'll definitely try this at home, though, and pay extra attention to the
flat part of my elbow (that hadn't occurred to me, either).
Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2014, 04:57:02 PM
I don't think that the jacket will resolve your issue, but you could try to find a high power shooter around the same size as you and try the jacket. Make sure that the shoulders are tight for prone and generally one only buckles the top couple of buckles.
Thanks for the tips. However, I'll only go for the jacket (or medical brace) as an absolute last resort... in my opinion, a true Rifleman needs nothing but a sling, a rifle, and some ammunition to get the job done. :)
Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2014, 04:57:02 PM
But try keeping your elbow as close as you can to the rifle while still on the left without pain. Also, if your group has opened to 5-6 moa that makes me wonder if you really have front sight focus. Are you using irons or a scope?
Will do. I first qualified with a scope, and then switched to irons (TechSights on my 10/22, and National Match sights on my M1A)...and yes, I do have difficulty with the sight picture. I'm horribly nearsighted, and despite wearing contact lenses while I shoot, I can focus on the rear sight, front sight-- but not the target. It's a blurry mess downrange. Maybe this is the source of my problems? :-[ I've been trying persistently to get used to irons, but maybe I should just acknowledge the fact that I can't shoot without a scope.
Quote from: V on September 08, 2014, 06:26:04 PM
The elbow should be directly under the sling not the rifle, then you will be able to "relax into the sling" without the flop to the joint limit.
Now, that didn't occur to me! I'll take another look at my position and see how my elbow falls in relation to the sling...
Quote from: Melissa on September 11, 2014, 01:13:50 PM
Will do. I first qualified with a scope, and then switched to irons (TechSights on my 10/22, and National Match sights on my M1A)...and yes, I do have difficulty with the sight picture. I'm horribly nearsighted, and despite wearing contact lenses while I shoot, I can focus on the rear sight, front sight-- but not the target. It's a blurry mess downrange. Maybe this is the source of my problems? :-[ I've been trying persistently to get used to irons, but maybe I should just acknowledge the fact that I can't shoot without a scope.
I too am horribly near sighted and wear contacts when shooting. First thing I do is put in a fresh pair of contacts if I'm shooting for score.
You also might check with your eye doctor that the prescription for your dominant eye (or whichever eye you're using behind the sights) is correct to focus on the front sight. That's it ... the front sight, nothing else, and nothing more. This might in fact result in a new prescription for a shooting contact lens rather than what you'd wear as a daily wear prescription where your eye is focusing all about.
The sight picture you describe isn't exactly correct ... you need to focus only on the front sight, and a 6 o'clock hold is preferred. A fuzzy blob sitting on top of a crystal clear front post outlined by a fuzzy circle is what you're after. Personally, I like this sight picture ... scopes distract me from just concentrating on my steady hold factors and shooting by the numbers since I can actually see the bullet holes appear ... squirrel!
To make that front post easier to focus on, it needs to be flat black in color. Any light that glints off of it will cause you distractions and focusing issues. Fer serious high power shooters use some sort of sight blackening, like soot from a carbide lamp or zippo lighter. I haven't got this serious yet, but I have played around with a diagonal pencil line on the front post. The pencil line gives me just enough contrast to allow me to sharply focus on the front post.
You can pretty much eliminate any of the fiber optic front posts also. I have Williams fire sights on one of my rifles (installed before I was enlightened at Appleseed), and that results in nothing but a red fuzzy mess no matter how hard I try to focus on it. When I get back around to working with that rifle, the first thing I'll be doing will be replace the front sight.
Don't give up on iron sights too quickly. I'm sure that with a bit of practice, your scores will be as high, if not higher, than when you use a scope.
Quote from: TJ Kackowski on September 11, 2014, 02:00:18 PM
The sight picture you describe isn't exactly correct ... you need to focus only on the front sight, and a 6 o'clock hold is preferred. A fuzzy blob sitting on top of a crystal clear front post outlined by a fuzzy circle is what you're after.
To make that front post easier to focus on, it needs to be flat black in color. Any light that glints off of it will cause you distractions and focusing issues. Fer serious high power shooters use some sort of sight blackening, like soot from a carbide lamp or zippo lighter. I haven't got this serious yet, but I have played around with a diagonal pencil line on the front post. The pencil line gives me just enough contrast to allow me to sharply focus on the front post.
Sight black is a help and it comes in spray cans as well as the traditional way of using carbide flame or a lighter. But, the problem with hold is that different people may require a different hold because we all tend to see things differently. The following comments will address my experiences with iron sights at 400-600 yards. For example on a bright day with even lighting either a Center hold or 6 hold could work for many people. But someone might need a Sub-six (line of white) or a flat tire. On an overcast day or one with alot of haze or mirage, the same shooter might need to use a frame hold because the bull disappears within a second of the sight coming into the target (in prone). It all depends on the shooter and the best thing that a serious shooter can do is determine her zeros for multiple holds. Because for optimum accurracy you want to use the hold that works for YOU on THAT day and THAT target.
Thank you for catching that jmdavis.
I should have clarified that I was speaking to 25 yd. Appleseed style reduced targets when I suggested the 6 o'clock hold. You are absolutely correct that when shooting actual distances there's a whole lot more going on and a shooter will have to figure out the daily (hourly?) conditions.
Heck, even at 25 yds (meters), the 6 o'clock hold needs to be modified for the different stages of the AQT. Since I'm setting my rifle up to hit the center of the 4 MOA squares, I need to I hold more center of mass when shooting stage 1. The rest of the stages are o.k. with my POI 2 MOA above my POA, but truth be told, I'm holding a bit into the black for stage 2 as well.
QuoteWill do. I first qualified with a scope, and then switched to irons (TechSights on my 10/22, and National Match sights on my M1A)...and yes, I do have difficulty with the sight picture. I'm horribly nearsighted, and despite wearing contact lenses while I shoot, I can focus on the rear sight, front sight-- but not the target. It's a blurry mess downrange. Maybe this is the source of my problems? :-[ I've been trying persistently to get used to irons, but maybe I should just acknowledge the fact that I can't shoot without a scope.
You can shoot without a scope. :) Well, more than likely. Far too many people give up on iron sights far too quickly, so my hat is off to you for sticking with it. They are tougher in some ways than using a scope, but using iron sights will teach you more about marksmanship, as you can focus on your shooting skills without the target being as much of a distraction (and it most certainly can be a distraction).
From what I read, I think there's one small piece you can add to the puzzle which will help your Tech Sights a great deal. I too am very nearsighted, and I also correct my vision with contact lenses. I have a slight astigmatism in my shooting eye as well. So I have a pretty good idea where you're coming from. The piece you may be missing is the size of your aperture.
I'll be writing a much more detailed article about this in the near future, but here's the short version. An aperture sight, when set up correctly, is a FAR more powerful tool than most people realize. It can, if set up right, do the majority of your focusing for you, giving you a crystal clear front sight and a pretty clearly focused target. Here's what I mean.
Light rays are coming at us from all angles. They are bouncing off of molecules in the air, being bent by thermal changes in the air, etc., and rarely come to our eyes in a straight line. The lens in our eye is designed to bend them all back so they can provide us with a focused picture of whatever we're looking at. Interestingly, the reason you and I are nearsighted is because the lens in our eye focuses those light beams at a point which isn't on our retina, hence everything is blurry without corrective lenses. Those corrective lenses serve to bend the light rays just a little bit so the lens in our eye can focus the image correctly.
Here's the funny thing that's not well understood about apertures. If they are sized correctly, they will block all of the light rays that are coming in from odd angles, and allow only those light rays through which are coming "straight" from the target. The thing about those "straight on" light rays is they don't have to be bent by the lens of the eye, so they arrive at your retina nicely focused.
In order to do this, the aperture must be small. Much smaller than what ships with normal Tech Sights. But it can't be too small, or else there isn't enough light to see well. If it's too big, it won't do anything for improving your focus and depth of field. Selecting the right size aperture is a Goldilocks effort, as you need one that's not too big, and not too small. It must be just right. For most shooters the "best" aperture will fall somewhere in the range of 0.038" to 0.048", and it will certainly vary a bit depending on how bright the day is. Younger shooters (with younger eyes) tend to do very well with apertures on the smaller end of that scale, and older shooters tend to do better with apertures that are a bit larger. At almost 47, I shoot best with an aperture in the range of 0.042" to 0.045" on most days. Believe it or not, those few thousandths of an inch are noticeable.
To translate this into simpler action items, the standard Tech Sights ship with an aperture which is 0.062" in diameter. This is far too big to have much of a "focusing" effect. There is an optional piece you can get from Tech Sights which allows you to use an aperture insert, and reduce the aperture size down to 0.042" in diameter. They call it their Insert Ready Aperture System. I have it on one of my rifles, and it works vastly better than the standard aperture.
If you know someone with a match grade rifle, odds are they will have a nice small aperture you can look through and see how it looks to you. They may very well have a whole box full of apertures you can swap around and try, or even a sight with an adjustable aperture. If you can, try it out and see how it does for you.
If the aperture is sized correctly, it will still give you a nice crisp front sight, plenty of light to see, and most of the fuzzies will go away from the target. If you do decide to go the Tech Sights Insert Ready Aperture route, I will warn you ahead of time that it's a pain in the neck to install, but it works extremely well.
Thank you, Agrivere, for the long and thoughtful reply! I would agree that it might be sight picture, as I do shoot better on my M1A (which has national match sights) than on my Ruger 10/22 (which has TechSights).
If after you get your sights optimized, if you are still not satisfied with your shooting and are still having shoulder issues, I would suggest checking with a physical therapist ( or sports trainer if you have access to one). They can work with your shoulder and perhaps tape it. In my experience taping was very helpful and helped me rehab my shoulder. The nice thing about taping should it be a solution for you is that it is not bulky like a brace and does not impede your activities.
Good luck in your pursuits.
LS6
The verdict...
After visiting a physical therapist, I've learned that I have weak ligaments that cause my joints to slip out and dislocate, due to providing inadequate bone support, and it will take quite some time-- months, or even years-- and a lot of specialized exercises to build up stabilizing muscles to compensate. (I'm no doctor; I'm just repeating what I learned, to the best of my own understanding.)
So, that explains the open groups...because, even though I feel perfectly stable, and I understand the principles of marksmanship and know what it means to completely relax and get in the Rifleman's Bubble, on an imperceptible level my muscles still end up contracting hard enough to impede accuracy, in order to prevent my shoulders from sliding out of place.
In the meantime, the physical therapist told me to either go adaptive with some sort of seated position (but even that hurts me), or to use a medical brace or shooting jacket to support my joints until my shoulders are normal. Until then, no shoot for you.
On the bright side, I guess now I've got an excuse to buy me a Creedmor. :)
Quote from: Melissa on November 08, 2014, 04:21:49 PM
On the bright side, I guess now I've got an excuse to buy me a Creedmor. :)
That sounds like a medical need to me, go for it!
Identifying the problem is the first step toward fixing it.
I'm not sure that a Creedmoor coat, or any shooting coat is going to solve your problem. It's not designed to support you in that way. But, what you can try is to loosen your sling a little, bring your hand in a bit, and move your support elbow away from the rifle a bit. You may induce some can't but you can overcome that by simply knowing your zeroes.
In the AMU International Shooting Guide they recommend a support arm position as close to the rifle as you can get it without causing pain. In your case you may have to move that elbow a little outboard. If you do, I think that you may be able to come up with a workable position that will let you shoot just fine with the sling. I have watched some really good women shooters do this and manage National Records. I have worked with several Appleseeders on exactly this sort of issue and they were able to overcome it and continue competitive shooting.
There are only two real non negotiables in shooting. You must have sight alignment (including front sight focus) and and you must have trigger control. If you can align your sights and activate the trigger without moving the rifle or pistol, you will shoot well. Everything else, especially positions, is negotiable. David Tubb won 11 Highpower Championships with a sitting position that is unorthadox. Sherry Gallagher set the national High Power Record at 2396 of 2400 using a cueball as the pistol grip for offhand because of her small hand size. The key to success in shooting is to find what works for YOU!