W00t! Another KD at Atterbury! Bro-in-law & I are signed up. I'm always working on dragging a few shooting buddies there too.
Who's going? Who's working?
I'll be there holding the targets!
Make sure that if you are a shooter or "merely" a worker bringing a rifle along that you get your personal and rifle info submitted. And don't forget to read the Atterbury instructions and put an X next to where it says, "I got it." You can find the instructions and the info sheet here:
http://www.appleseedusa.org/smf/index.php?topic=35705.0 (http://www.appleseedusa.org/smf/index.php?topic=35705.0)
Do it or you might not get in the gate. I know the guy who compiles the gate list and he's one cranky SOB!
C ya,
brian
""merely" a worker" = no way. Volunteer target pit workers are like Gods. I'd buy them all Chinese buffet passes if I could.
Bump! I still see 32 tickets for sale and not many people talking up this shoot.
Relax Hop, it will be almost sold out and EPIC....
I actually thought about having this shoot capped at 20. It's less of a drain on our resources. The over under on a open shoot at CAJMTC is 13. The most enlightening shoot I've bossed was just 8 folks.
The only thing that surprises me is that more instructors haven't signed up. If you read the forums a year ago KD was dead and it was going to take all hands and the cook to revive it. Oddly we had been active doing multiple shoots at CAJMTC for a few years at that point. Fast forward and now KD is apparently passé.
I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself and not shoot well and be intimidated by the awesomeness of the Indiana Instructor Core. :)
I'm going, have to borrow an AR. I wouldn't dream of missing a whole day in the trenches running targets up and down.
Quote from: Big John on September 10, 2014, 01:41:09 AM
I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself and not shoot well and be intimidated by the awesomeness of the Indiana Instructor Core. :)
You probably will be. Your awesomeness will be limited by it. Then you'll do what you were doing only awesomer then you'll truly feel like one of us.
If I get embarrassed I'll just call Range Control
I'd be at Atterbury also, but had already committed to instruct at an Appleseed same weekend in Niles, Michigan with Steel Thunder. I live here just south of the Indiana/Michigan border and hope to work some with the good folks in Michigan. My neck of the woods needs more Appleseeds.
That said, the Camp Atterbury KD will be absolutely PROFOUND. Sign up today!
Loren .
Quote from: Uncle Davey on September 10, 2014, 07:50:11 AM
I'm going, have to borrow an AR. I wouldn't dream of missing a whole day in the trenches running targets up and down.
Extra AR's I have. Let me know if you would like to try one. I think I'll make life difficult for myself this time and try the M1A again. It broke the 1st time I took it to CAJMTC.
~
I'm definitely in on Sunday. As of right now my work is pulling our vacation days because we are so short so Saturday isn't a sure thing for me yet.
Thanks Hop, I have already secured one!
I'm free and plan on being there ... I'm just holding out to see if instructors will be needed and see if there are slots (and funds) available to attend as a shooter. I can't recall the last time I attended any Appleseed as a shooter and I can't recall the last time I put rounds downrange at Atterbury with my own iron (it's been a few shoots ago).
My thread on INGO is getting some activity. I hope we get a few more shooters signed up. Can't wait!!!
Quote from: SPQR on September 10, 2014, 09:06:32 AM
Quote from: Big John on September 10, 2014, 01:41:09 AM
I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself and not shoot well and be intimidated by the awesomeness of the Indiana Instructor Core. :)
You probably will be. Your awesomeness will be limited by it. Then you'll do what you were doing only awesomer then you'll truly feel like one of us.
I was able to hang with SQPR for the rest of my mag this weekend once I noticed him shooting standing at 300.
I feel awesomer.
So I might drag a buddy to Atterbury but will be buying his ticket. Are there any additional range fees to worry about this time? Just wondering if it's included or not because the cost went up from $60 to $90.
He's a 1st timer but I'll get him sorted out & kitted up before hand.
Range fees are not included. Appleseed changed it's prices this year to differentiate KD events from 25 meter events due to the additional costs and labor associated with those events.
I verbally announced this event to the guys in my NRA basic rifle and shotgun instructor class yesterday. I got assigned the "other shooting opportunities" to present as a mock lessen. It spurred a couple conversations that I think resulted in a couple guys that are seriously looking into it. Now if their signing up sells out the event before I get my butt in gear to arrange going I'll only have myself to blame. O0
Get it in gear Doc! I want to see you score a 40/40! ^^^ the man shot 4 out of 4 KD rifleman score last time I was there with him. :bow:
If you haven't already submitted your personal and rifle info get it done. Don't be left out standing at the gate because you put it off until it was too late.
C ya,
brian
It's looking more and more like you guys have this taken care of and also more and more like they're going to need a -:) at Newark, OH that weekend. I'm not 100% out yet but I'll probably have to miss this one.
Hopefully someone's there with a pimp robe to post selfies.
Greetings!
I attended last year and had a great time and a wonderful learning experience. I'm signed up and ready to go for this year's event.
The one question I have is, does anyone know the makeup of the attendee's for this year's event? Last year there were quite a few "Seasoned" Appleseeder's that were on the firing line and being a novice at LD I had a hard time keeping up. The instructors were fantastic in trying to lend help to keep the shoot going and still allowing me to learn as the event progressed but after a few "Rookie" mistakes with sight adjustments I fell well behind and was just sending lead down range.
By knowing the makeup of the shooters experience, I can devise a plan to keep up and not fall behind and hold the rest of the shooters back. It would be great to get in as many AQT's as possible.
Thanks, and I look forward to seeing everyone in a few weeks!
You won't be alone. I just signed up a buddy that's never been to an Appleseed & I think there's a couple more 1st time KD shooters attending from INGO.
I had the buddy get a zero and we've shot out to 275 yards using his RDS & flip2side 3x. He's got a decent idea of what to expect.
~
I've been known NOT to be the sharpest tool in the shed. Amazing I made it to mid-life.
My problem stems from a lack of mathmatics fundamentals and multi-tiered computations. A prime example is converting inches to MOA using a known distance, then converting that to "Click adjustments" for iron sights or electronics etc. Too many levels for me to get through and remember. Then do it for windage too.
And after I shoot and change distances, I have to retrace my steps from where I've been to be on target. I need a scope that can do all this for me but unfortunately I don't have the 10K for such a thing.
I'm just glad to be out there with like minded individuals having fun.
You don't need 10k. You need about three fifty and a phone call to AA Optics.
It's called a Ballistic Compensated Reticule. It will have the trajectory graduations on the scope, you shoot the correct ammo, and the reticule does it for you.
The flip side is to use Battle Sight Zero on the appropriate sight system.
What you need is not education or money. You need experience. You are coming to the right place.
Thanks SPQR for the encouragement and the info. I'll be sure to check them out. If the eyes were a little better I'd try the iron sights for the KD but age is catching up with me real fast!
Regardless of scope, make sure that you somehow mark the zero when you have it, the other thing that you can do if you have issues with turning the knobs the wrong way, is make a label on the stock of your rifle that has your comeups and simple scope directions. For example with a 100 yard zero and a 5.56 and a scope with 1/4 moa adjustments, you are looking at 6-8 clicks from 100-200 and a other 10 from 200 to 300. From 300-400, you want 12 clicks. These numbers are based on 62 gr. ammo.
With an A2 iron sight 5.56 zeroed at 25 m, I often won't adjust elevation on a KD aqt until I go to 400. I will come up 3 moa from 300 to 400. Since I know that 25m is VERY close to my 300 yard zero, at 100 I will be 4 inches high and and 200 I will be 5.5 inches high. So I hold into the bottom of the black at 100 and just a bit lower for 200, then shoot dead on at 300, and finally come up 3 moa at 400.
Also with irons, you should know and mark your no wind zero. You will want to come back to this if the wind drops or ceases. You should also count off your no wind zero from either full left or full right windage. Knowing these and writing them on the card attached to your stock, your databook or the inside of your eyelids will help keep you on track.
Finally, if you fall behind, don't worry. Just try to learn as much as you can. But if you can get a good 25m or 100y zero, mark your zero on your scope, and write your comeups down in clicks, you take all of the math out of it.
For the ironsight shooters, here is an article on Marking AR sights. There are other articles out there on marking M1 and M1 sights.
http://www.ocabj.net/marking-your-sights/
Here are some photos of differnt ideas for Range cards on your stock.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Rifle+range+card&rlz=1C1AVSC_enUS450US462&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ky81VOnFAYqGyASWmYCQAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1154&bih=670#tbm=isch&q=range+dope+on+rifle+stock
Quote from: SPQR on October 07, 2014, 10:05:59 PM
You don't need 10k. You need about three fifty and a phone call to AA Optics.
It's called a Ballistic Compensated Reticule. It will have the trajectory graduations on the scope, you shoot the correct ammo, and the reticule does it for you.
The flip side is to use Battle Sight Zero on the appropriate sight system.
What you need is not education or money. You need experience. You are coming to the right place.
Wise man here O0
I am Alan from AA Optics. My number is 765-580-0986 or feel free to contact me right here.
Quote from: SPQR on October 07, 2014, 10:05:59 PM
You don't need 10k. You need about three fifty and a phone call to AA Optics.
It's called a Ballistic Compensated Reticule. It will have the trajectory graduations on the scope, you shoot the correct ammo, and the reticule does it for you.
The flip side is to use Battle Sight Zero on the appropriate sight system.
What you need is not education or money. You need experience. You are coming to the right place.
2nd this. Shooting with the BCR almost makes it cheating. Almost. and no it has nothing to do with SPQR's carbine >:D
I have a 14.5" Colt with a ACOG BDC marked at 100 Meter increments. Using XM855 ammo, it only needed a small tweak at 200 yards to make "in the black" hits all the way out to 500 yards. Rayne should have borrowed that gun. ;)
I'm bringing both a scoped M1A and a EOTech equiped 10.3" SBR this time. It's going to be interesting.
Quote from: Hop on October 08, 2014, 03:07:21 PMI'm bringing both a scoped M1A
Got extra extractors just in case?
Quote from: slim on October 08, 2014, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: Hop on October 08, 2014, 03:07:21 PMI'm bringing both a scoped M1A
Got extra extractors just in case?
Have M1A's had issues with the extractor? Just curious.
Quote from: Wild Deuce on October 08, 2014, 07:14:31 PM
Quote from: slim on October 08, 2014, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: Hop on October 08, 2014, 03:07:21 PMI'm bringing both a scoped M1A
Got extra extractors just in case?
Have M1A's had issues with the extractor? Just curious.
Yes and AR10s with breaking bolts.
The "new" ones from SA are using cast parts and the tiny bits sometimes break whenever there's a brittle batch. I saw it a couple times in recent years. The old ones are supposed to be good and word on the street is they've fixed their supplier issues and it doesn't happen anymore on the new ones. If you bought one around 2012 or so you might want to check it out thoroughly before trusting your life to it.
Don't ever trust your life to an AR-10.
My SA M1A from 09 has treated me ok, but I take it as a backup KD rifle and a steel ding-er.
Allowed me to save face with Huff a few weeks back though.
Always bring a backup rifle.
Quote from: Big John on October 08, 2014, 07:51:33 PMAlways bring a backup rifle.
I keep an AK pistol in the trunk.
...except when I'm on Atterbury. !@#)
Ok. Didn't know that.
I have a LRB Arms M14SA built by Smith Enterprise. Hopefully, I don't have to worry. My SA SOCOM II on the other hand ...
A lot of griping about AR10s but I've seen Rimshots put up 1 moa groups consistently with surplus South African throughout two Appkeseeds.
For all the talk of M1As, the mag doesn't drop free and according to a bunch of dudes that commented when the LTR was released, that is somehow important. ::)
Dude with the piston gun-Just show up ready to have fun. We will only move as fast as the slowest shooter, and if you follow our method, that will be fairly quick. Everyone shoots, no one quits. And, if you are really lucky, I may get down off of my throne of Shoot Bossery and ridicule you a little bit, which is the closest I ever come to complimenting anyone, so you will feel appropriately warm and fuzzy. I'm certain of it.
Quote from: SPQR on October 08, 2014, 08:56:59 PM
A lot of griping about AR10s but I've seen Rimshots put up 1 moa groups consistently with surplus South African throughout two Appkeseeds.
Oh they're shooters.
...till they break.
Yep both of mine shot well but neither would run through 500 rounds without crapping on themselves. I have had 3 yes 3 fail at Appleseeds and never had one complete an entire weekend. The closest was the last KD in Evansville where Bens broke an extractor on the final 300 yard stage. So close just 18 rounds away from completion. To be fair though we had a Garand break a firing pin on the 400 yard stage right after. Very possibly keeping both from Riflemen scores.
Sometimes Murphy just pisses in your flashpan, sometimes we do it ourselves.
Anyone seen a SCAR on the line? If so how did it fair?
Yeah, sure. Shooters don't seem to enjoy the ergo aspect prone.
They all seem very proud of them.
They are expeeeeeeensive, even for me.
I like my FNAR though.
My M1A extractor didn't even make it to 80 rounds total & broke at an Atterbury KD @ the 25 yard zero'ing line.
Alan, there was a 308 SCAR shooter next to me at the February Atterbury KD. I could feel the rapport of every shot thud through my torso. lol
Quote from: slim on October 08, 2014, 07:41:19 PM
The "new" ones from SA are using cast parts and the tiny bits sometimes break whenever there's a brittle batch. I saw it a couple times in recent years. The old ones are supposed to be good and word on the street is they've fixed their supplier issues and it doesn't happen anymore on the new ones. If you bought one around 2012 or so you might want to check it out thoroughly before trusting your life to it.
Not just the new ones. A while back I had the (cast) extractor from my 1976 build Springfield match M1A part my hair as it left, when I was doing a bench test on some (non-aggressive) hand loads. A few degrees lower angle of departure and I'd have had a few stitches to remember it by. Now there's a USGI forged extractor in there.
Quote from: Hop on October 09, 2014, 04:16:44 PMAlan, there was a 308 SCAR shooter next to me at the February Atterbury KD.
That was Maynard, wasn't it? Maynard, where you at?
Quote from: Nero on October 09, 2014, 04:24:29 PMNow there's a USGI forged extractor in there.
I had all types of problems with my Colt Match Target rifle when I first got it. Swapped out the bolt with a USGI bolt and voila! No more issues. Lowest bidder may not be a good thing for some parts, but for small arms, Uncle Sam seems to have his stuff together.
Quote from: Hop on October 09, 2014, 04:16:44 PM
Alan, there was a 308 SCAR shooter next to me at the February Atterbury KD. I could feel the rapport of every shot thud through my torso. lol
That's why God invented suppressor's ;D
I shot the 17 about a month after they were released to the public and I have not been able to get how much I liked it out of my mind. Thankfully every time I get ready to pull the trigger on one I get a long enough moment of clarity to realize "3k for a rifle you don't need is ignorant"
Yeah. If the trick was that you wanted an auto loading .308 you could have LRB put a krieger on an M25 action for less.
~
Quote from: SPQR on October 09, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
Yeah. If the trick was that you wanted an auto loading .308 you could have LRB put a krieger on an M25 action for less.
I have a AR-10 (just got a couple weeks ago) that I got on trade. Id like to have a semi auto 308 that was light weight, compact enough for tractors/trucks/durable/accurate (accuracy came last for a reason). I don't need sub MOA, something hat is between 1, and 2 moa would be fine. IMHO the SCAR 17 with a RZR 1-6 would be the perfect weapon for such a task, if I needed a weapon to do that task bad enough to warrant that kind of price tag. I would basically like to have 1 do all weapon vs a bunch of specialized weapons.
At one point and time I got out of 260 due to the convenience of not having to reload. My 260 was my do all rifle and I was pretty good with it because (outside of my 22) it was shot 99% of the time I shot anything. Lately I've noticed instead of being pretty good with 1 rifle, I'm OK with 4 more specialized rifles, and its something Id like to remedy at some point.
Sorry Guys, I just found the second page of the thread.
jmdavis: I'll be using an EOTech with 3x magnification. I got real close last year to earning a patch with iron sights but time moves forward and the 'ol eyes aren't wahat they used to be. Far is not the problem, close & intermediate is, so I'm trying something different. Thanks for the Tips! The EOTech is a 1/2" MOA adjustment. Remembering to make the adjustments is what I need to work on. Maybe a size 11 kick might just do the trick...
Alan, seen your message and thanks. We'll be talking during or after Atterbury!
Getting close to go time!
Quote from: Piston556 on October 13, 2014, 09:46:08 PM
Sorry Guys, I just found the second page of the thread.
jmdavis: I'll be using an EOTech with 3x magnification. I got real close last year to earning a patch with iron sights but time moves forward and the 'ol eyes aren't wahat they used to be. Far is not the problem, close & intermediate is, so I'm trying something different. Thanks for the Tips! The EOTech is a 1/2" MOA adjustment. Remembering to make the adjustments is what I need to work on. Maybe a size 11 kick might just do the trick...
Alan, seen your message and thanks. We'll be talking during or after Atterbury!
Getting close to go time!
I have to work a show this weekend, so I wont be at the shoot, but Ill catch up with you when your ready sir.
~
QuoteMine are only a size 8-8 1/2 but I'd be happy to accommodate you with the needed kick >:D
Thank you Sir, may I have another?
Quote from: Piston556 on October 13, 2014, 09:46:08 PM
Sorry Guys, I just found the second page of the thread.
jmdavis: I'll be using an EOTech with 3x magnification. I got real close last year to earning a patch with iron sights but time moves forward and the 'ol eyes aren't wahat they used to be. Far is not the problem, close & intermediate is, so I'm trying something different. Thanks for the Tips! The EOTech is a 1/2" MOA adjustment. Remembering to make the adjustments is what I need to work on. Maybe a size 11 kick might just do the trick...
Alan, seen your message and thanks. We'll be talking during or after Atterbury!
Getting close to go time!
You can absolutely, positively shoot a rifleman kd score with the eotech an 3x magnifier. If. I was going to adjust my sight at the different Yardlines, I would mark my elevation and windage zeros with a metallic sharpie, it comes off with fingernail polish remover and even enough sweat.
You can however zero it at 25 and use it as you would an a2 battle sight zero with irons. Good luck.
I have been trying to get hold of the POC at Camp Atterbury for the past 2 weeks to get some questions answered. I just tried again and still no luck.
We typically are allowed to take possession of the range at 1800L (that's 6 pm local time) on Friday evening so we can prep and set up the camp. We aren't going to be camping on the range this time so I'm running on the assumption that the 1800L isn't going to be that big of a deal. However, be prepared for that not to be the case. So, you can show up before 1800L to set up camp but don't be surprised if you can't do what you want until after 6 pm.
I don't know if there will be campfires allowed or barrels for fires provided at the bivouac (aka camping site) so we will have to play that by ear. I will be bringing my grill and I am planning on camping Friday and Saturday night. The grill will be available for anyone to use whether I end up camping or not.
The bivouac area is located two "blocks" west of Range Control in the northeast corner of the intersection of County Line Road (County Road 900 S) and Schoolhouse Road.
More detailed directions: Pass the security checkpoint (smile to the guards and DO NOT exit your vehicle), work your way through the serpentine and under the REALLY BIG canopy and continue south for about a mile being sure to watch your speed and keeping an eye out for pedestrians. At the intersection of Eggleston and County Line Road you will see the fire department ahead on your right and directly to your left is Range Control. Turn right and continue to the intersection with Schoolhouse Road. Bivouac is on your right.
I will be attending the Deconfliction Meeting at 1400 (2 pm) Friday to find out if we get kicked off at the last minute. Assume all is well unless you see something posted here (or on INGO) or get a phone call or email.
That is all I can think of for the moment.
brian
Good work.
My hope is that we can take possession at 1800 and set up as usual. I suspect that not to be the case as well. That's why breakout teams were assigned on the duty sheet for Pregame.
I'm working on the southwest side of Evansville and it'll probably be late before I can get there Friday. I'll buzz you tonight so we can go over some details.
~
very sorry guys I'm going to have to sit this one out even on Sunday. Wife had a death in the family and we have to head out for that.
~
I want to thank everyone for their help this weekend at Atterbury. Another great experience and well the seasoned instructors, RSO's and volunteers made for a safe, friendly shooting experience.
Next year I think I will try iron sights again. For some unknown reason, I lost my DOPE at the 300 yrd line on Sunday and couldn't recover. Seems more like operator error and I may have to accept it. I tried the EOTech this time but when we had the drill to find Battle Sight Zero I found that it took 147 clicks to bottom out for eleavation. Thats contrary to EOTech specs and hard to do in the short time of "shooters prep time" given between shoots as shooters cannot approach their modern sporting rifles unless given the command to do so.
All in all a great weekend with like minded individuals who love shooting.
You generally don't want to bottom out the scope. That is why you mark the zero and then go from there. The reason for this is that many affordable scopes don't have consistent click distances at their limits.
For example, the scope on my .22 silhouette rifle (Bushnell 6.5-20x44) zeroed for chickens at 40m goes up 15 clicks for pigs at 60m, 20 more for turkeys at 77m and 32 more for rams at 100m. To get to my 200 yard zero with Remington White Box I then add 96 more clicks (24 moa). That puts me more than 2 full revolutions around. I mark that zero as well for rapid use.
You can always shoot a box with your eotech (pm me if you need instructions to determine your average click change) and remember that you can use BSZ (your 25m zero) to engage targets out to 300 yards. You then add 4 moa (8 eotech clicks) to engage 400.
Once you have your eotech zero, you can cowittness your backup irons and be set for any eventuality.
Good luck.