Fisherdawg in Alaska, and I in Virginia, have seen an issue with the Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22: If the bolt is allowed to close too quickly while a chamber flag (ECI) is in place, the extractor can pop out the side. Provided you can find the extractor, replacing it is a simple matter of pressing it back in place from the front of the bolt while applying pressure to the outside so that it snaps back into its recess in the bolt. You can do it with fingers; no tools are required.
The M&P extractor is very similar to the Ruger 10/22 extractor, except that the rear of it is rounded whereas the Ruger's is squared. Neither is designed to accept direct pressure from the front tip. In normal use, the inner edge of the extractor tip contacts the case head, pushing the extractor tip out and around the case so the hook can catch the lip of the case head. Pushing the extractor tip outward pivots the rear of the extractor deeper into the bolt. But pushing on the center or right edge of the extractor tip, which contacting a chamber flag can do, pivots the rear outward. In these cases, the extractor plunger and spring are normally held inside the bolt by the chamber flag and so are not lost.
To prevent loss of the extractor, keep the bolt locked back whenever a chamber flag is in place. Easing the bolt forward into the chamber flag is not recommended, as the pressure on the extractor could push it out of place.
Saw this thread when I was looking for a fix:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=117972
Seems like Appleseed stresses the heck out of M&P 15-22s...
Of note, S&W will take the whole rifle back. They evidently have a fix that involves more than simply replacing the extractor assembly, as I offered to do. Turnaround for shooters with this issue is about 2 weeks. When I get mine back I will try to update this thread to reflect what was done, and whether pursuing warranty service is worth it, or if it's better just to buy an aftermarket kit for an onsite repair.
I had it happen, didn't know why. Sent it to SW and bought a spare rifle.
Appleseed ECIs can catch 15-22 extractors, and can pull the extractor out while the ECI is being removed from the chamber.
The way to avoid it is to bend the shaft of the ECI, and not fully place it into the chamber. As long as the heel of the ECI is not inserted as far as the bolt face/extractor, there is no problem. I try to make a point of telling this to students I see with 15-22s.
Other than that, the 15-22 makes a terrific Appleseed rifle. Mine has seen a lot of chamber flags with no issue. And I would much rather adjust the A2 sights on one than mess with the Tech sights on a 10/22.
I'd rather just see people properly use the bolt latch to keep it locked back.
FiremanBob, I agree, but inexperienced shooters or shooters with scopes that sit low over the charging handle may not have the muscle memory to do it correctly every time.
We had a gunsmith on the line whose son had a similar issue; he rigged up a chamber flag of his own design to try to mitigate the problem. I didn't get a chance to look at it but it's possible one of the red hats did. I may post a pic if I see it again as another potential solution.
You should never drop the bolt on a chamber flag on the Appleseed line or anywhere else. You may, may wish to ease the bolt closed on a flag when you are casing your rifle. But other than that. The flag should be out when the bolt closes.
This issue can be resolved on the line by letting people know that they should not drop the bolt on the flag, ever, regardless of rifle type. Even if the flag does not cause the extractor to pop out, it may break and leave an obstruction in the barrel.
Quote from: Medicus on July 16, 2014, 04:29:01 PM
FiremanBob, I agree, but inexperienced shooters or shooters with scopes that sit low over the charging handle may not have the muscle memory to do it correctly every time.
We had a gunsmith on the line whose son had a similar issue; he rigged up a chamber flag of his own design to try to mitigate the problem. I didn't get a chance to look at it but it's possible one of the red hats did. I may post a pic if I see it again as another potential solution.
Sean -- do you mean Mike & Klancey?
If so, the Chamber Flag was my design borrowed from someone in the past. I can post a picture if desired. Weren't nothin' special -- zip tie & ear plug or zip tie plus empty cartridge case.
Wally
PS: You are correct about Appleseed stressing equipment. Great information for aRifleman to know about his Rifle -- how it holds up during 400 to 500 round count weekend.
>:D
Wally
Quote from: jmdavis on July 16, 2014, 04:51:40 PM
You should never drop the bolt on a chamber flag on the Appleseed line or anywhere else. You may, may wish to ease the bolt closed on a flag when you are casing your rifle. But other than that. The flag should be out when the bolt closes.
This issue can be resolved on the line by letting people know that they should not drop the bolt on the flag, ever, regardless of rifle type. Even if the flag does not cause the extractor to pop out, it may break and leave an obstruction in the barrel.
Completely agree.
I instructed the shooters on that, but obviously did not get the point to sink in.
Issue noted & correction will be applied on future POI's.
jmd, you make some of the most insughtful comments on forum -- please keep it up.
I appreciate it. :)
fisherdawg
jmdavis- 100% agree. Knowing your rifle and operating it correctly fundamental to safety, let alone accuracy. However as a father, physican, officer, and former NCO, telling a shooter to do something and them actually doing it correctly can be 2 different things... The charging handle and bolt catch on an AR platform seem simple to me, but I've been operating this platform for 15 years. I still remember struggling to get the "Inspect Arms" drill correct with this mechanism. If the bolt catch isn't held properly the bolt may slam forward unintentionally, and there is a learning curve for this 2-handed maneuver.
My point is that, since Appleseed is meant to be accessible to entry-level shooters, some of whom may be learning their rifles still, like Trisha's post in this month's newsletter. I am fumbling for a backup solution that doesn't punish the shooter more than necessary for what I feel really constitutes a design flaw on S&W's part.
fisherdawg- That's exactly what I'm talking about, please do.
If shooters can't be expected to follow the SAFETY instruction of not dropping the bolt on the chamber flag, Appleseed has a problem. The issue here is not just one of inconvenience or a missed day of shooting. There is the potential issue (particularly with centerfire AR's) of breaking the flag and obstructing the barrel. That is true whether the flag is a piece of weedeater line, a CMP flag, an AS flag or something else entirely.
The only time to drop the bolt on the appleseed line is when the load command is given. Removing the flag is an integral part of loading.
Perhaps I am oversimplifying, but the AR system was designed to be mastered by scared and sometimes stupid 18 year olds. I know for a fact that my goal when issued an M16 was to absolutely, positively avoid having a DI jump down my throat for doing something stupid. When we came off the line at the range, the bolt was open after the last shot, we dropped mags, put the safety on and with muzzle up reported to the RSO to have the rifle rodded and certified clear. No reason to touch the mag release.
The only time that "Inspect Arms" enters the equation is at the initial command to incase rifles. In my experience that always follows the safety brief.
We're drifting the thread a bit, but all of this is still relevant to the proper handling of an M&P 15-22 so I'm happy to keep it going...
On the matter of student resistance to learning simple procedures: When I have to teach a student a part of his rifle's manual of arms, I have him do it four times successfully before releasing him. I find that at every shoot I have to teach at least one student how to properly handle the bolt latch on his Ruger 10/22, Marlin 60, or Mossberg. Drilling under supervision is the most effective way to get the proper actions seated in muscle memory.
Quote from: jmdavis on July 16, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
If shooters can't be expected to follow the SAFETY instruction of not dropping the bolt on the chamber flag, Appleseed has a problem. The issue here is not just one of inconvenience or a missed day of shooting. There is the potential issue (particularly with centerfire AR's) of breaking the flag and obstructing the barrel. That is true whether the flag is a piece of weedeater line, a CMP flag, an AS flag or something else entirely.
The only time to drop the bolt on the appleseed line is when the load command is given. Removing the flag is an integral part of loading.
Perhaps I am oversimplifying, but the AR system was designed to be mastered by scared and sometimes stupid 18 year olds. I know for a fact that my goal when issued an M16 was to absolutely, positively avoid having a DI jump down my throat for doing something stupid. When we came off the line at the range, the bolt was open after the last shot, we dropped mags, put the safety on and with muzzle up reported to the RSO to have the rifle rodded and certified clear. No reason to touch the mag release.
The only time that "Inspect Arms" enters the equation is at the initial command to incase rifles. In my experience that always follows the safety brief.
I'm being unclear. The process of locking the bolt to the rear in an AR-15 requires 2 hands and some practice, whether you're on the range or doing D&C- I reference the awkward movement by way of illustration alone. As the beneficiary of Army rifle marksmanship training, I can also attest to the power of the immediate and high-profile on-the-spot corrections issued by our drill sergeant team, both for the unfortunate violator and nearby witnesses...
One of the things Appleseed strives for, and does well IMHO, is balance the tension between the need for perfect safety, every time, with a gentler perception on the part of the instructors than you or I experienced, making the program accessible to more mild-mannered students than the military tends to attract.
Backtracking to the original point, that same inexperienced shooter may hear the instruction, witness the correct way to clear the rifle, and still screw it up when put to the point of doing it themselves. I don't want this to devolve into a discussion about tolerance for error-you and I and I'm sure all of the posters on this forum are in 100% agreement on that point. My thoughts on the matter, and any posts to follow, will focus on how to make sure that given an error on the part of the shooter, and given immediate and unflinching correction by the instructor staff, how do we now ensure that the RIFLE does not terminate the event after one mistake for an otherwise teachable SHOOTER?
To that end I'll keep everyone posted on the progress with our M&P 15-22. I've discovered over the course of today that apparently getting this particular part kit is a lot more difficult than just going to Brownell's.
Had a M&P 15-22 lose its extractor at the last shoot I worked. Usually things like this enter a low earth orbit and are never seen again but a strong magnet was found and, miracle of miracles, the tiny little bugger was recovered from the grass! Happy shooter was the result. And thanks to Mr Pete for doing the fishing--and catching.
Quote from: jmdavis on July 16, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
The only time to drop the bolt on the appleseed line is when the load command is given. Removing the flag is an integral part of loading.
Removing the flag should be done immediately upon assuming the position in prep period. Shooters should be dry firing during their prep period and that needs to be done without chamber flags.
When I've seen shooters drop the bolt on chamber flags it's done in "oh shoot" moments....like when they forgot to remove it during prep and start to load.
In addition to new shooters who are unfamiliar with their rifle we also have many volunteers unfamiliar with rifles. Take the time to do "show and tell."
Quote from: 9mm4545 on July 17, 2014, 12:55:53 AM
Usually things like this enter a low earth orbit and are never seen again but a strong magnet was found and, miracle of miracles, the tiny little bugger was recovered from the grass! Happy shooter was the result.
Love the strong magnet idea! Going to need to remember to put one in the shoot gear pile.
Something like this might work: http://www.harborfreight.com/17-inch-mini-magnetic-sweeper-98398.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/17-inch-mini-magnetic-sweeper-98398.html)
Quote from: slim on July 17, 2014, 10:29:56 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on July 16, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
The only time to drop the bolt on the appleseed line is when the load command is given. Removing the flag is an integral part of loading.
Removing the flag should be done immediately upon assuming the position in prep period. Shooters should be dry firing during their prep period and that needs to be done without chamber flags.
When I've seen shooters drop the bolt on chamber flags it's done in "oh shoot" moments....like when they forgot to remove it during prep and start to load.
In addition to new shooters who are unfamiliar with their rifle we also have many volunteers unfamiliar with rifles. Take the time to do "show and tell."
Good point, I stand corrected. But there is still no reason to drop the bolt on the flag. This is not just a convenience or lost extractor issue, it is a safety issue as well.
9mm4545, that is an excellent idea, especially if (1) the handle detaches easily for stowing; and (2) you strengthen the notoriously weak HF magnet with a handful of neodymium magnets spaced out over the bar.
And with this, I think we have exhausted the improvisational riff provided by the original post. Thanks, everyone.
I do not let people use the Appleseed chamber flags in any rifles I loan. Lost too many extractors when someone hit the bolt handle and the auto bolt release did it's thing.
I use a length of orange weed eater line about a foot long. Tie a knot in it about 3" from one end and feed the other end into the chamber. Will not effect the extractor at all if the bolt is closed on it.
When I taught Hunter Safety, one group of Boy Scouts attended a shooting event we hosted. They used the weed eater string but made it long enough that it extended beyond the end of the muzzle by 4". You could tell at a glance from anywhere on the line that the rifle was safe.
I am the instructor that has several M&P 15-22s that fisherdawg wrote about when this was started in the other thread.
We have put several thousand rounds through our 15-22s in the year or so that we have had them, all without any problems.
During our first Appleseed our boys were near another shooter that has had 15-22s for quite a while. From his experience he warned us about the chamber flags. He said that in addition to closing the bolt on a chamber flag "vigorously" inserting the flag can cause the extractors to have issues. We heeded his warnings and gently place the flags. That and trying not to close the bolt on them has worked for us. We have not had any extractor problems. Since then I have talked to a few others that have had the same experiences.
Was also told by some 15-22 owners not to put too much tension on the sling when using it as it will distort the barrel and cause group problems.
At least one of the extractor problems we had at this Appleseed was due to having malfunctions with those "Golden Bullet" .22lr cartridges.
As far as it being a training issue...every one that I know, no matter their experience with the AR platform, has dropped a bolt unintentionally. Oh yeah...it will happen.
Quote from: douglas34474 on July 17, 2014, 06:32:33 PMI do not let people use the Appleseed chamber flags in any rifles I loan.
How do you think that makes our program look to people?
We're telling everyone at the event to stuff one of these into their rifle and you come along saying, "My rifles are too good for the flags we've just given all of you."
I'm not known to sugarcoat words so perhaps you word it a little more gingerly but if an Appleseed staffer told me to stuff something into my rifle but refused to use it in his own equipment I'd probably have a few reservations about it.
Quote from: hogfamily on July 26, 2014, 06:39:18 PMevery one that I know, no matter their experience with the AR platform, has dropped a bolt unintentionally. Oh yeah...it will happen.
The best is when you're handloading one round at a time for the Boy Scouts and the young man is so excited he slaps the bolt release while your finger is still in the receiver.
I guess that's not technically unintentional but it's no bueno all the same.
Update on our M&P 15-22:
Called S&W, said they couldn't send parts to me or to a gunsmith for a local repair. Had to send the rifle back in for warranty work. They paid for all the FedEx shipping, truck came to the house to pick up, super easy. Rifle was gone from 21 July- 1 August, came back fixed and functional.
The bad news is that, as far as I can tell, no action has been taken to safeguard against a similar fault in the future. A quick call to S&W confirms that all they did was repair the extractor, test-fire, and clean the weapon (which I could have done myself much faster if they'd just sent the part).
So as professional and courteous as S&W was, I think a few minutes of prevention will be worth 2 weeks of cure for our shooters, and I will try to make sure I brief M&P 15-22 shooters on future lines on the importance of care with the chamber flag to forestall similar issues with their rifles.
Glad it's working. S&W is notorious for requiring returns even for simple repairs, and for slow turnaround. So I guess you got a bit lucky on timing. I think it's their lawyers who require it. Can't have a customer do any work on a rifle...what if we get sued?
Quote from: Medicus on August 08, 2014, 06:33:13 PMI will try to make sure I brief M&P 15-22 shooters on future lines on the importance of care with the chamber flag to forestall similar issues with their rifles.
Is this something we really need to tell people?
Quote from: slim on August 09, 2014, 12:51:29 AM
Quote from: Medicus on August 08, 2014, 06:33:13 PMI will try to make sure I brief M&P 15-22 shooters on future lines on the importance of care with the chamber flag to forestall similar issues with their rifles.
Is this something we really need to tell people?
Appleseed is meant to be accessible to the lowest level while still offering something to experienced shooters. So the answer is, for some shooters, yes. I suppose with others I'll just have to apologize if I insult their intelligence ;)
I'm not concerned with how you personally handle shooters in a one-on-one scenario where you share a tip with folks who bring a rifle that's known to break.
What I'm concerned with is which page of the Instructor Manual this will end up on and how many other "tips" we need to train our IITs to warn shooters of.
If you drop the bolt on the flag in an AR, M1, M1a, AK or many other semi-autos, you can have a safety problem. That is why it is advisable to let the students know that they should be sure to take the flag out before dropping the bolt.
Flags have broken in rifles before. It is an issue that should be briefed at the beginning of an event. It is as much of a safety issue as squibs and I saw flags break as often as I saw squibs(not very often). Students should check the flag when removing it to make sure that there is nothing missing. It only takes a moment. And, it only takes a moment to warn of the potential issue. Further, instructors should be aware that flags can break and be on the lookout for flags that appear broken. It may be that it was broken in an attempt to get it to fit into a 22. Or it may be that someone dropped a bolt on it and part of the flag is obstructing the barrel.
CMP has warned of potential breaking issues with flags for years, and they have changed their flags to help avoid the issue. I don't believe that the Appleseed flag is as prone to break as was the old CMP flag, but there have been batches that were more brittle than others.
Quote from: slim on August 09, 2014, 12:51:29 AM
Is this something we really need to tell people?
I am not concerned whether it makes it into the instructor manual or not. Do as you please. I plan to cover the chamber flag/bolt issue whenever I do the Safe Rifle section. I would say the vast majority of my students have never encountered chamber flags, and I feel obligated to teach them thoroughly how to use them properly.
Quote from: FiremanBob on August 09, 2014, 11:09:59 AMI plan to cover the chamber flag/bolt issue whenever I do the Safe Rifle section.
That would be a good time to cover it for ALL rifles.
What I'm getting at here is we seem to have this desire to add "one more thing" to every single point of instruction we do. It would be unfortunate if we had to cover safety tips for every rifle instead of the basic tips for all rifles. If there is a specific model that needs some special treatment we don't need to cover it as POI for the whole group. We can engage those shooters individually on an as-needed basis.
I wish I had a dollar for every time we got side tracked with, "How many tubers do we have here? Anyone shooting a SKS? Oh, you AR-22 guys have special rules and we'll go over those right now." Our POI needs to be all-encompassing so we get 4moa close and press on. The manual is pretty clear on chamber flags and if we are going to make it a point of instruction on how to use them, Safe Rifle is the time.
Simple rule:
"Don't drop the bolt on the chamber flag in any semi-auto. If you do it can cause rifle problems or safety issues. If you do so by accident, check to make sure that the flag is intact."
^That sounds good to me.
This is the modified chamber flag we used in Connor's M&P 15-22. It's an orange earplug with a ziptie to go down the barrel. Still not a good idea to close the bolt on it, but it's a little more forgiving with the extractor claw:
Just last week we had a student slam the bolt on his chamber flag and snap off the post. Had to rod the barrel to get it out.
Yep, that's the safety issue.
Had another M&P launch its extractor this weekend. Looks like there was too much oil in the action from the previous night's cleaning, making the extractor slick. So when the bolt closed it popped out together with the plunger and spring. We were lucky to find all the parts on their tarp.
A little research indicates that this defect may have been common on early M&Ps and has since been fixed with a redesigned extractor. I don't know the solid facts on that story. An identical rifle used by this student's mother had no malfunctions at all.