Had a new challenge on the range this weekend. A shooter brought along his Tavor. Very cool little rifle- but it became rapidly apparent that not everything we teach is easily applicable for a bullpup design. Does anyone have any experience and advice for teaching students with a Tavor, Steyr AUG, FN PS90, or similar?
Sling use was a particular challenge, as little to no consideration was likely applied to shooting from slung positions when designing this weapon. Transitions were also not easy and obvious. We teach to hold a rifle with the support hand when transitioning, because it helps to keep the muzzle in a safe direction. But on most rifles, the support hand is close to the rifle's center of gravity, which makes for a practical place to hold a rifle with a single hand. Not so with a bullpup- the small forward handgrip area is very far forward of the center of gravity, and one holding the rifle there quickly points the muzzle at the sky.
The shooter this weekend persevered and did very well- but I would have liked to have been able to help him with positions more. These aren't rifles we likely will see often on the line (especially in MD)- but it would be nice to be better prepared for the times that we will see them.
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/l/t1.0-9/10394849_665017923585974_3111002183469111257_n.jpg)
(Trying to figure out how to sling up a Tavor)
If it's the standard tavor vs the micro tavor, the rib forward of the pistol grip is supposed to be in full contact with the support side forearm. This will help teaching getting the elbow under the rifle. I'm not sure how well you could use a gi sling with one, would love to see it be done. YouTube channel (military arms channel) has many videos on the tavor. As for the balance, is up not a safe direction to keep the muzzle?
I've had one bullpup on the line - can't recall the type. It was brought by a quite petite young woman, so the shooter and rifle sizes were in proportion. Conventional prone and sitting worked reasonably (using the zip tie sling trick) but for standing I showed her 'target style' without the sling, which worked quite well.
I have a Bushmaster M17S that is butt-heavy but controllable held between support hand and shoulder in transition. I can't swap mags well without lifting my trigger side elbow though, and like an AR, have to break cheek-weld to cycle the action.
There were multiple challenges with this shooter, in addition to the Tavor... size, mobility and flexibility all added to the mix. It is readily apparent that we need more experience with this rifle as it is very different. We are likely to see more bullpups coming to the line (Tavor, Kel-Tec, Steyr) as they gain in popularity so some of the Instructors ought to take one for the team, purchase one, shoot an event and report back! Who's gonna volunteer? ;) BeSwift
When WPA/Mach 1 sponsored an event last year I shot a KDAQT with a Tavor they'd brought for us to use. My conclusion - Its an awesome rifle...for standing at a checkpoint or urban warfare. Not so much for a Rifleman.
But, the internet says they're cool so we'll undoubtedly see more of them on the line. As such, the tips and tricks we can offer should be made known. The one I shot didnt have a sling on it and even with a sling I dont think it wouldve been much help. I had to cradle it like a baby in standing, placing the front of the grip into the crook of my support arm. In sitting, I pointed my support hand toward the target and rested the rifle on top butting the front of the grip against my forearm. In prone I was able to place the front of the grip in the crook of my elbow running the grip up my arm and support hand along the forestock. It actually fit pretty well though I dont think it would work with a sling.
Like all rifles, low, locked in and steady is the name of the game. This one wasnt too hard to work with though it was "funny" for a Rifleman. For a noob I imagine it would be a lot easier since theyre not accustomed to what it should feel like.
Waiting for the Warlord of the West to weigh in here. Legend has it hes a Tavor guy...
I've had some bullpups on the line... never a Tavor though. As was said, they usually balance at the trigger, with not much weight on the support hand. This makes them easier to shoot without a sling. One issue with trying to use a sling is that bullpups have such short fore-grips, and are usually intended to be fired with a vertical foregrip, so sling placement is a problem (the front end of the sling generally needs to be in front of the support hand to make it work ). I had a guy with a MSAR (AUG clone) who used a loop sling... He had the front of the sling hooked to the HK hook right above the VFG, and held it by the VFG. It looked awkward, but it helped.
Quote from: BeSwift on June 23, 2014, 10:28:27 AM
There were multiple challenges with this shooter, in addition to the Tavor... size, mobility and flexibility all added to the mix. It is readily apparent that we need more experience with this rifle as it is very different. We are likely to see more bullpups coming to the line (Tavor, Kel-Tec, Steyr) as they gain in popularity so some of the Instructors ought to take one for the team, purchase one, shoot an event and report back! Who's gonna volunteer? ;) BeSwift
If my annual income doubles and my wife hadn't financed a car I'd be all over it. They look so freakin cool! Not a rifleman's rifle for sure but I have my doubts about 5.56 as it is (too many Taliban I know I hit slithered away). I hope they come out with the 7.62x39 conversion soon (what mags would it take?).
Quote from: 509gman on June 23, 2014, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: BeSwift on June 23, 2014, 10:28:27 AM
There were multiple challenges with this shooter, in addition to the Tavor... size, mobility and flexibility all added to the mix. It is readily apparent that we need more experience with this rifle as it is very different. We are likely to see more bullpups coming to the line (Tavor, Kel-Tec, Steyr) as they gain in popularity so some of the Instructors ought to take one for the team, purchase one, shoot an event and report back! Who's gonna volunteer? ;) BeSwift
If my annual income doubles and my wife hadn't financed a car I'd be all over it. They look so freakin cool! Not a rifleman's rifle for sure but I have my doubts about 5.56 as it is (too many Taliban I know I hit slithered away). I hope they come out with the 7.62x39 conversion soon (what mags would it take?).
You know..Kel-Tec is coming out with their's in 6.5 Grendel next year... I'm gonna be on that like ..well..use your imagination.. BeSwift
BeSwift, may have to step up on your request. Being a single guy with austere living habits and only two hobbies
means I tend to attract an arsenal. :) I've never cared for bullpups, I think the theory is flawed in terms of safety
and aiming potential, but maybe I can find one I like.
509gman, with the customary and heartfelt thanks for your service, I'd love to talk sometime in another thread
about the effectiveness or lack thereof of the 5.56. I had a buddy in intel that did three tours that saw similar results
to what you mentioned.
With it's 15 inch lop, the Tavor isn't on my list. I do have experience with the Aug and the PS90 though. In both cases I was able to make use of a hasty sling for my positions. A reload on the PS90 is more of a pain in prone, rifle out of shoulder and moved forward, press mag release, lift up and back on the mag, and then replace the mag. But hey, that's why they make it with a 50 round magazine.
The Aug, is a little easier to reload, but in prone you still need to take the rifle out of the shoulder and move it forward, to keep things efficient.
Now on the accuracy front, the PS90 with reflex sight is completely capable of cleaning Stage 4 of the AQT at 25m. My first time shooting it was a 98 with hasty sling. If you slap a 1.5 acog on there it's even nicer. In Feb 2010, Crashkid2k qualified KD with his at Ramseur. I would need to check my notes to be sure but the score that I remember is 221.
I had a Tavor on the line last summer and I agree that it is not a rifleman's rifle. The lady shooting it constantly used the front hand grip as a mono pod. The instructors kept working with her to use the correct SHFs but she did not want to exert any effort to support the front end of the rifle. The rifle was set up by her husband with a single point sling and we could not figure out how to make a useful shooting sling work for the rifle. She did not have very good AS experience as she was not using a rifle that would allow her to gain any actual marksmanship skills.
Quote from: Prescott on June 24, 2014, 04:10:26 PM
I had a Tavor on the line last summer and I agree that it is not a rifleman's rifle. The lady shooting it constantly used the front hand grip as a mono pod. The instructors kept working with her to use the correct SHFs but she did not want to exert any effort to support the front end of the rifle. The rifle was set up by her husband with a single point sling and we could not figure out how to make a useful shooting sling work for the rifle. She did not have very good AS experience as she was not using a rifle that would allow her to gain any actual marksmanship skills.
The good news here is she'll be back on the line - with her husband - this weekend (hopefully without the Tavor).
If we can have instructors getting rifleman scores with a cricket single shot I'm sure it can be done with a tavor.
There is at least one instructor with one. They posted on the review I asked Slim for on his experience with the Tavor. The person I'm thinking of shoots 3 gun and has two other bullpups. I may have to go digging. They posted a review and some tips at that time as to shooting it and mag changes.
These are assembled in Pennsylvania and I would like to have one but it is way down on the priority list and way out of budget.
Quote from: slim on June 23, 2014, 10:47:53 AM
Waiting for the Warlord of the West to weigh in here. Legend has it hes a Tavor guy...
It's not a legend...and I feel like I ought to go knock on his window or something. But until he can speak for himself...at the attached link he speaks for himself!
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=37441.msg271205#msg271205 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=37441.msg271205#msg271205)
Here is a growth opportunity for instructors as well as students. Remember always that we are not the only school and teach one set of useful tools but do not fill out the toolbelt all by ourselves.
Students who bring bullpups or tactical slings all present great opportunities to learn for us as well as them. There is often the temptation to mentally bracket them/their rifle/their gear as "wrong" but that is a huge teaching mistake. Think of it more as an "opportunity for creativity" where you get to individualize training to the student much like you would need to if they were an adaptive appleseeder having to make individual adjustments for physical reasons.
To be blunt - it is better they learn how our skill set is applicable to them than to let them leave thinking they signed up for the wrong school and wasted their money and time.
They bring a tactical sling and do not want to swap out for a web sling? Good. It means they have chosen to pass on an important lesson of our cirriculum (a bad thing/missed opportunity) because they want to master their own gear in a serious way that they can take home with them (a good thing). Now you have to move out of your comfort zone and help them get the most out of our cirriculum using their own gear. With a tactical sling the main goal is turning "loose" into "tight" - at Dundee a few years back I worked on this with a student and we came up with a workable solution (will try to dig up pictures).
With a bullpup the problem is in sling mount and manual of arms. Frankly, our instruction has the student swap mags with the support arm in order to maximize NPOA. This is counter to almost all other schools that have the student keep that firing hand on the pistol grip at all times. The Tavor is specifically designed for support hand mag swap. This is a challenge. On the one hand you can teach right hand swap which is counter to what they will learn elsewhere and as such is likely to be abandoned, or you can give them a couple of options and explain the loss they will take as a result. "You can break support hand if you want to, your accuracy will suffer as you have to reaquire NPOA from a more challenging spot after a mag change."
The reality is that I would prefer they bring the rifle they keep at home and in the trunk. That is the only rifle that matters in the long run if they continue to practice or if they ever really need it in an emergency. They aren't going to give up the tactical sling and they aren't going to become cmp shooters with that rifle. Both of those things are ok.
Just make sure they know what the main instruction technique is, and then personalize creatively as needed like we already do for bolts, tubes, lever actions, steel plates in knees, 400lbs bellies, and so on.
Give them options, make sure they know the optimal way and then the 5 other ways.
Never insult their rifles, gear, or previous schooling.
Have fun with them.
Send them home with a useful experience.
^^^^^ THAT was a great post!
Frankly, I have my LR guns and my 3-Gun guns...and I don't mix them so I can't speak to how the Tavor (or AUG or...) shoots for an AQT. But techres' post above makes me want to. Just like my goals this year are to..
...shoot RM from my "weak" side...so I know what lefties go through and what it feels like to be totally unfamiliar with a manual of arms
...shoot RM with a boltie...ditto above
...shoot AQTs with as many different rifles as possible vs my old stand-by...to be more rounded (shooting not gut)
Quote from: techres on June 25, 2014, 12:05:15 AM
Here is a growth opportunity for instructors as well as students. Remember always that we are not the only school and teach one set of useful tools but do not fill out the toolbelt all by ourselves.
Students who bring bullpups or tactical slings all present great opportunities to learn for us as well as them.
That is a great attitude- one I enthusiastically use and support myself.
Unfortunately, it failed both me and the student at this shoot.
I was unprepared- and the requirements of running a good safe shoot for the whole group of students meant that I could not apply the time to get to know the shooter's equipment and help him use it. I am confident that this lack of preparation showed, and as a result the student got much less from our program than he would have otherwise.
Furthermore, after working with the student for two days, I cannot say that I am better prepared for the next student I see with a Tavor. That is to say, working with students on the line is not likely going to be the way to learn to effectively use and teach on these rifles.
Perhaps instructors more experienced than me are better able to apply adapt, improvise, and overcome better than me. If so, I beg guidance. But I am interested in doing what preparation I can now, so that I will be ready to face this challenge the next time I see it.
I'm tempted to go to a local gun shop that has one in stock, and sheepishly ask if I can roll around on the floor with it for a while to learn how to hold it. Brian, you want to come?
Something I can contribute on this,
We had an artilleryman a week ago. He brought his personal M4. Small scope on the main rail,
aimpoint style optic offset 45 deg to left, one point tactical sling. Although he did try a loaner
LTR at times, he did the standing phase facing the target with a 2 round popup bang-bang style.
He nonchalantly pointed out that facing the targets puts your armor plates facing the target too.
He was openminded and cool about it, and so were we, so it was a great time. If either side had
been not openminded, it could have caused issues, so it was very much a "do the way you have
been trained and see if our stuff can be worked in or help."