ARMSCOR Precision 22 LR Ammo QC heads up.
A shooter and his Dad, here at the local range, were down a few benches from me.
They had what appears to be a double charged load using a 22 LR. It was in his 10/22.
Note the case head separation and a chunk of the side of the mag blown out.
I was able to take some pics. Everyone fine, rifle, bore, etc. checked out ok. See pics.
He reported the noise was louder and the recoil was much more noticeable.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/842/ct43.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nect43j)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/835/zkkg.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/n7zkkgj)
Wow. Haven't seen anything like that, but I have seen some of the bulk Armscor create problems. The bullets have an oddly fat profile and would not chamber in some rifles. It is also the dirtiest ammo I have ever seen, requiring a full teardown, even disassembly of the bolt, to scrub the carbon and gunk out of the action after each day of shooting.
I wonder if it's possible that, rather than a double charge, the bullet was too tight in the barrel, raising the pressure out the breech.
Quote from: FiremanBob on May 21, 2014, 12:46:13 PMI wonder if it's possible that, rather than a double charge, the bullet was too tight in the barrel, raising the pressure out the breech.
Could be.
But the blown out case looks to me exactly like an out of battery discharge. Not terribly common on 10/22s, but certainly not unheard of either. If a fouled or peened chamber prevents a cartridge from seating completely, this is what happens. It's also more likely on aftermarket target barrels with closer fitting chambers.
I wouldn't automatically assume that this is an ammo issue.
If the failure to seat was due to fouling, it's definitely an ammo issue.
It seems to be that it could also have been a squib, that would create the kind of pressure buildup that is seen here. So i would not necessarily blame the ammo.
It was a standard 10/22 barrel.
Ammo was made in Philippines as stated on the box. LR exposed lead round nose.
Someone told me, and I can't verify it that the foreign made ARMSCOR had softer brass.
In regards to the "fouling" issue.: With ammo shortages, I have noticed that folks shooting a bunch of 22 shorts
will have fouled chambers that will not allow a LR to go in all the way.
Solution is to get a chamber brush and solvent and a quick scrub solves that.
Could be a a combo of factors at play that cause this or anything suggested above.
It is amazing the things that can go wrong on the firing line.
Here is a problem I had with some Armscor ammo
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/case-bulges.html
Quote from: scoutcamper on May 21, 2014, 01:47:48 PM
It seems to be that it could also have been a squib, that would create the kind of pressure buildup that is seen here. So i would not necessarily blame the ammo.
Is a squib not an ammo failure?
Had a similar issue with Federal Bulk. Exact same case head separation, same description from shooter.
Determined to be an out-of-battery discharge, created by powder fouling in the chamber. Tested by attempting to chamber a new round (with a different magazine, of course). The bolt did not fully close on the new round, so we stripped the rifle down and cleaned it thoroughly. No more problems. Owner of said rifle admitted that it had been ages since they had cleaned the chamber/barrel, and instead had just been spraying CLP and RemOil onto the bolt to keep it functioning.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on May 21, 2014, 10:12:17 PM
Had a similar issue with Federal Bulk. Exact same case head separation, same description from shooter.
Determined to be an out-of-battery discharge, created by powder fouling in the chamber. Owner of said rifle admitted that it had been ages since they had cleaned the chamber/barrel
This.
There are all kinds of things that can keep a cartridge from chambering properly- chief among them being neglect. Powder residue, lead fouling, dirty ammo (cartridges that maybe had been dropped in dirt/sand), lacquer or wax buildup, even rust will do it.
Just because your rifle still cycles doesn't mean it's in a safe condition to shoot. The bore and chamber of blowback action firearms need to be cleaned regularly.
We had a shooter have two very similar failures with Armscor a few weeks ago in Dundee, it was written up in the IAAR, but we didn't call it out here, maybe we should have. Both times, there was enough extra noise and smoke that the next shooter down the line and the nearest instructor noticed immediately. Both times we rodded the rifle, the first time was an actual squib with a bullet still in the barrel, the second time it wasn't, but half the case was still stuck in the chamber. Both cases blew out at the head, so it was either too much pressure, or soft brass. There was obvious shrapnel in the magazine after the second one, so we had the shooter put his ammo and that magazine away, he continued the rest of the day with different ammo and had no problems.
Quotethe first time was an actual squib with a bullet still in the barrel...
Then there shouldn't have been a second time.
If either a squib, or an honest hang-fire occurs, that ammunition should be immediately removed from service. No questions, no hesitation, done. It is unsafe.
AK and I went out today for some practice AQTs and tried out Armscor. Based on our experience I would recommend against using this ammo. It is very greasy/oily, does not seem to have a uniform bullet diameter, and was pretty dirty. A couple of cartridges showed lead shaving from the attempt to chamber. This may account for the out of battery issues. The rest of this batch is now reserved for my single action revolver.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on May 27, 2014, 05:14:14 AMIf either a squib, or an honest hang-fire occurs, that ammunition should be immediately removed from service. No questions, no hesitation, done. It is unsafe.
1 time out of 500 seems pretty acceptable to me. Would I trust my life to it in combat? Probably not. But I'm not sure you can say it's unsafe.
22LR is rimfire. Sometimes things happen with rimfire. 99% of the time there's a poof of smoke and a funny noise but nothing serious occurs. When we go telling attendees they can't use the ammo they brought because it's unsafe they might start to question the knowledge and qualifications of our instructor cadre.
If ammo causes a squib (bullet stuck in the bore), the lot it came from should be immediately removed from service and the manufacturer informed. They will likely monitor reports from that lot #, and if necessary, recall it.
Just because you caught one squib, doesn't mean you'll catch the next, or that the next shooter to use that ammo will.
If the ammunition causes a hang-fire, the lot it came from should also not be used. This is typically OLD ammunition, so the manufacturers won't care as much.
Hang-fires have a serious potential for causing harm, if the shooter ejects the cartridge, mistakenly believing it to be a misfire.
Fail-to-fire Misfires? I let the shooter decide how much is too much. I've had shooters continue with 2/10 misfire ratio, and I've had shooters switch out ammo after the first misfire.
Hang-fires and squibs? Once is too many.
So you make the call their ammo is unsafe and have them remove it from the line?
Before you make that call you need to know it is the ammo. Not all squibs are ammo related. If you are confident it's the ammo, fine, but how do you imperially prove it's the ammo on the line with one single incident?
Quote from: SPQR on July 19, 2014, 03:41:51 PM
Before you make that call you need to know it is the ammo. Not all squibs are ammo related. If you are confident it's the ammo, fine, but how do you imperially prove it's the ammo on the line with one single incident?
Safety comes first. If I even suspect the ammo or rifle or anything else it is off my line. I will provide ammo or a loaner as needed but you will not shoot anything I have doubts about. I'm a shoot boss, it's my responsibility and my call.
2cl
That is not the question. I have no problem with that and I doubt anyone does. I'm simply suggesting it isn't always ammo. Pulling the ammo to prevent a future squib prevents nothing if the rifle is at fault.
Seems to me that the only squib that isn't the ammo's fault is an out-of-battery discharge. That should be easily recognizable, compared to the typical squib. An OOBD is usually due to the action and chamber being filthy. Perhaps we might add to the How to Prepare page an instruction to clean your rifle before coming to your Appleseed.
Quote from: FiremanBob on July 20, 2014, 10:44:05 AM
Seems to me that the only squib that isn't the ammo's fault is an out-of-battery discharge.
If the rifle/mag are dirty enough to cause mis-feed, bullets can be damaged badly. If the student is banging the bolt closed with their palm all bets are off as racking the bolt afterwards can leave a bullet in the chamber. I have witnessed one honest squib, but I have rodded three bullets out of chambers due to mis-handling of the rifle. Were those the ammo's fault?
I have had students trade ammo, load from the wrong box, bring two identical boxes but they were purchased three years apart, I know several people who love to buy ammo and dump it all into one giant ammo can, I have had students using brand X drop a round and pick up another brand X off the mat that belonged to their neighbor.
I think the point being presented is that the first step with any malfunction should be to investigate everything leading up to the squib being fired.
DAve
The spent case shown in the photo shows an OOBD, pure and simple. The unanswered question is why.
It was not a double charge of powder. When a 10-22 goes off there is not enough unsupported brass to allow the case to rupture. As the chamber pressure builds the bolt starts to move back in recoil. When the chamber pressure reaches it's highest point the bolt/case have only moved back 0.003". There is still not enough unsupported case to cause a case rupture. As more case becomes unsupported the pressure is dropping, and the chance of a case rupture is also dropping.
The round shown in the OPs photo shows WAY TO MUCH unsupported case, the reason the case ruptured in the first place. The question becomes why did the rifle discharge without the bolt being at battery?
The 10-22 has a built in safety factor, if the rifle is not screwed with. If the bolt is not at battery the hammer can not hit the firing pin because the bottom of the bolt gets in the way of the hammer. The hammer will not hit the firing pin unless the bolt is at battery.
What is not known is did the rifle discharge as the bolt closed or when the hammer dropped. I really doubt it was ammo related.
This discussion is very informative and thought provoking. It is obvious that many of you have more technical knowledge and more line time than I, so I want to pick your brains.
To the best of my memory, I have experienced three squibs over the last few years on my lines. All were .22 RF and all appeared to be the result of OOB discharges; two were AR clones (CMMG conversion and/or S&W MP22), and the third just last weekend on a Chiappa M1 carbine clone.
I have also had several other OOB incidents that did not result in a squib. Past procedure has been: check bore using some weed-wacker line, if bore is clear, shooter is cleared to continue. But what I am seeing here is that after the bore is found clear, it would be best to thoroughly inspect and clean the chamber before returning the rifle to service. Either that or provide a loaner until such time as the offending rifle can be carefully inspected and cleaned. Is this the prevailing advice?
Although we can try, I don't know how much useful information can be garnered from asking the shooter for the sequence of events leading up to the problem. Heck, I'm not sure I could accurately tell you the failure sequence if it happened to me. A shooter gets in their bubble/cadence and something goes awry, and all bets are off. But maybe that's just me, as I can get overly-focused sometimes.
UL
I've seen 3 22LR 'squibs' that I can recall over the last couple years. Two were squibs in the usual sense - the cartridge case was intact, there was little or no powder burn, the bullet was in the barrel. The third was really an OOBD - rim of case blown out, apparently full power powder charge, bullet in barrel.
My rule of thumb:
If case is intact, suspect ammo, particularly if it's an old batch or from a source with suspect quality. Pull the ammo if there any other quality issues at all (misfire is squib's first cousin).
If case is broken / distorted, suspect OOBD due to dirty chamber, gummed up extractor slot on 10/22, etc. Pull the rifle and clean it.
What does it matter if we have OOBDs and squibs with rimfires nobody gets hurt by them?
Quote from: Slow2Speak on July 20, 2014, 10:56:55 PM
What does it matter if we have OOBDs and squibs with rimfires nobody gets hurt by them?
Potential. The young lady shooting the Chiappa M1 I mentioned above took some shrapnel (bits of brass) to the face. Fortunately she had her eyes on. http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=41872.0
And somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a few years ago an instructor had a fairly serious injury to her hand when a .17 HMR had an OOBD. If I remember correctly, she was shooting it to diagnose a problem and did not have the magazine inserted, and the shrapnel blew down the empty well and hit her hand. ???
UL
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on July 20, 2014, 11:12:42 PM
Quote from: Slow2Speak on July 20, 2014, 10:56:55 PM
What does it matter if we have OOBDs and squibs with rimfires nobody gets hurt by them?
Potential. The young lady shooting the Chiappa M1 I mentioned above took some shrapnel (bits of brass) to the face. Fortunately she had her eyes on. http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=41872.0
And somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a few years ago an instructor had a fairly serious injury to her hand when a .17 HMR had an OOBD. If I remember correctly, she was shooting it to diagnose a problem and did not have the magazine inserted, and the shrapnel blew down the empty well and hit her hand. ???
UL
Yeah I know Kevin thats why I was making the argument for eye pro here while back on another thread and I finally got mad and pulled my posts because every body jumped in talkin bout how we were stomping on everybodys God given personal libertys by requiring eye pro
At a public range about 8 or 9 years ago, I saw a .22LR cartridge case that had had an out of battery detonation, similar to this one. The case looked similar. The rifle was a Marlin 60 variant. Talking to the guy, I learned that he didn't believe .22 rifles ever needed to be cleaned. The rifle had never been cleaned in all the time the guy had had the rifle. He mostly shot .22 shorts, as that was more accurate, he said. But, he was shooting .22LR that day, as it had been a gift from a family member. Was it the ammo's fault? Who knows? But, I doubt it. But, where I am going with this is perhaps we should include some discussions in our safety briefings regarding the importance of cleaning rifles. And, for those who don't know how to clean their rifle, perhaps we should even consider having a cleaning session where they can learn to clean their rifle. Over the last year and a half at Appleseeds, I have seen some very dirty rifles come to the line, and have come across more than one person who simply believed that .22 rifles never needed to be cleaned! The standard solution has been to bring out a loaner. But, this doesn't address the safety issues remaining for the dirty rifles.
I have also seen a .22 rifle arrive at a public range with a bullet already stuck in the chamber, from a prior failure to chamber a round resulting in a bullet pulling out of a case. These rifles wouldn't load, and were just put away on a prior shooting outing. And, I have heard "war stories" from full time RSOs at some of the state run public ranges here in FL, who have found such rifles several times a year and who are also required to personally check every firearm with a bore light prior to releasing a firearm for shooting on the public state ranges. It doesn't take long to check every bore with a bore light. We cover squibs in our safety briefings, of course, but, we never inspect a rifle bore with a bore light or a rod until someone has had a suspected squib. If we added this step for a "step zero" in making a rifle safe, at the beginning of every Appleseed for shooters coming to the line, it wouldn't take much time. And, it might prevent an injury.
Does anyone inspect all rifle bores coming to an Appleseed, as a first step? Is this something we should consider doing?
Quote from: Guntuckian on July 21, 2014, 12:53:05 AM
Does anyone inspect all rifle bores coming to an Appleseed, as a first step? Is this something we should consider doing?
AFAIK, it's SOP in California and many Western shoots to run week whacker cord through every barrel before going hot for the first time. Any shoot that I'm running we're doing it. (Weed whacker cord is a lot easier to store than a rod, and you'll get fewer objections from those who are sensitive about barrels, muzzle crowns, etc.)
Quote from: Nero on July 21, 2014, 01:11:06 AM
Quote from: Guntuckian on July 21, 2014, 12:53:05 AM
Does anyone inspect all rifle bores coming to an Appleseed, as a first step? Is this something we should consider doing?
AFAIK, it's SOP in California and many Western shoots to run week whacker cord through every barrel before going hot for the first time. Any shoot that I'm running we're doing it. (Weed whacker cord is a lot easier to store than a rod, and you'll get fewer objections from those who are sensitive about barrels, muzzle crowns, etc.)
Roger roger. This has been SOP for every shoot I've been to, as long as I've been doing this.
I've not only seen two brand-new, in box firearms with barrel obstructions, I've caught one student with patches in the bore before a shoot. This is in addition to using it at almost half the shoots I've worked to check for possible obstructions after an off-sounding shot or student running the muzzle into the rocks. ::)
It's just a good thing to add to your kit. I keep a length in my "field" cleaning kit.
Quote from: Slow2Speak on July 20, 2014, 11:17:25 PM
Yeah I know Kevin thats why I was making the argument for eye pro here while back on another thread and I finally got mad and pulled my posts because every body jumped in talkin bout how we were stomping on everybodys God given personal libertys by requiring eye pro
Their God given Rights can not be infringed upon by the government. The Constitution doesn't say a thing about Appleseed! !@#) WE are in charge of the firing line, not the student. Eye protection is a REQUIREMENT to be on the firing line, PERIOD. Same with hearing protection, it is not open to argument.
Squibs and OOBD are VERY dangerous, to the shooter firing the rifle and to those around them.
I'm in total agreement with ItsanSKS. Ground the rifle and ammo and offer a loaner. The reason for the failure is not Appleseed's to determine. It is interesting to discuss and examine so as to learn from the event, I always learn. But whatever the cause may be, IMHO, the risk to allow the rifle and ammo back on the line is too great to assume. Just as sure as I know the Sun will come up in the East this morning, if Appleseed lets the rifle back on the line and someone is injured, Appleseed will be held liable.
Quote from: Rocket Man on July 21, 2014, 02:16:36 AM
Quote from: Nero on July 21, 2014, 01:11:06 AM
Quote from: Guntuckian on July 21, 2014, 12:53:05 AM
Does anyone inspect all rifle bores coming to an Appleseed, as a first step? Is this something we should consider doing?
AFAIK, it's SOP in California and many Western shoots to run week whacker cord through every barrel before going hot for the first time. Any shoot that I'm running we're doing it. (Weed whacker cord is a lot easier to store than a rod, and you'll get fewer objections from those who are sensitive about barrels, muzzle crowns, etc.)
Roger roger. This has been SOP for every shoot I've been to, as long as I've been doing this.
I've not only seen two brand-new, in box firearms with barrel obstructions, I've caught one student with patches in the bore before a shoot. This is in addition to using it at almost half the shoots I've worked to check for possible obstructions after an off-sounding shot or student running the muzzle into the rocks. ::)
It's just a good thing to add to your kit. I keep a length in my "field" cleaning kit.
I have attended 7 Appleseeds in the Southeast, and a check for a bore obstruction has never been done before going hot for the first time. I like the idea of weed whacker line! It cannot harm either the bore or the muzzle crown! I'm going to bring this up in the pre-shoot meeting for the next shoot, and bring a length in my field cleaning kit.
I think that checking before going hot for the first time is an excellent idea!
gb
We should probably find "one more thing" to add to our safety procedures.