I have about 240 rounds of 5.56 set aside for a KD. How much more do I need to get?
I, too, am preparing for a KD. The shoot boss for the one I am signed up for has estimated we should need about 250 rounds, since the first half of Saturday is a class with shooting not starting until after lunch. Then, as we start shooting at distance, we'll be moving from firing line to firing line, which will slow the pace.
That said, I am having trouble getting 68 or 69 grain bullets to hand load. They (68 gr) are ordered, but got placed on back order. So, being I don't know when my order will ship, I now have 420 of the 62 grain cartridges (full ammo can) as a substitute. And, I have plenty 55 grain cartridges. The 55 grain bullets work well at 100 and 200 yards. But, if it is a windy day, the heavier grain bullets will make a lot of difference at 400 yards, and even at 300 yards if the wind picks up late in the day. Heavier bullets make all the difference at 500 and 600 yards. (The range I am shooting at has a 600 yard range, and it is likely we will shoot some at 500 and 600 yards.).
But, it really depends on what the shoot boss is planning, and also what the maximum range is available on the Range that your KD will be at. If there is only 400 yards available, and the wind is minimal, it would be possible to stick with 62 grain bullets and do fine.
Or you could just pick up a case of 500 rounds of Wolf Performance Ammo, either 55 or 62 grain and save the handloads for match shooting. You'll get some good data on ammo that is easy to get and have a few rounds left over for next time. O0
UL
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 27, 2014, 11:14:28 PM
I, too, am preparing for a KD. The shoot boss for the one I am signed up for has estimated we should need about 250 rounds, since the first half of Saturday is a class with shooting not starting until after lunch. Then, as we start shooting at distance, we'll be moving from firing line to firing line, which will slow the pace.
That said, I am having trouble getting 68 or 69 grain bullets to hand load. They (68 gr) are ordered, but got placed on back order. So, being I don't know when my order will ship, I now have 420 of the 62 grain cartridges (full ammo can) as a substitute. And, I have plenty 55 grain cartridges. The 55 grain bullets work well at 100 and 200 yards. But, if it is a windy day, the heavier grain bullets will make a lot of difference at 400 yards, and even at 300 yards if the wind picks up late in the day. Heavier bullets make all the difference at 500 and 600 yards. (The range I am shooting at has a 600 yard range, and it is likely we will shoot some at 500 and 600 yards.).
But, it really depends on what the shoot boss is planning, and also what the maximum range is available on the Range that your KD will be at. If there is only 400 yards available, and the wind is minimal, it would be possible to stick with 62 grain bullets and do fine.
What I have on hand is all 55gr XM193 so I'm just going to get some more of that and see how it goes. I figure this is my first time long range so if I don't get it done, that's OK. There are a couple more near me this year.
Sounds like I just need another box or two and I'll be set.
Good Luck! O0
I can't see why you'd need more than 240 rds though you should PM your Shoot Boss to find out how many rounds you'll need. As for which rounds to bring I recommend looking at our main page where it says, "rack grade rifle, surplus ball ammo" and then using that to determine why spending lots of extra money is necessary.
Personally, I spend as little money as possible on my ammo and the only place grain weight really seems to matter is on the internet. Your mileage may vary, of course, but here's a short video you may want to take a look at before you go wasting time and money tracking down "better" bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaebkpk7jDw&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on April 28, 2014, 12:26:47 AM
Or you could just pick up a case of 500 rounds of Wolf Performance Ammo, either 55 or 62 grain and save the handloads for match shooting. You'll get some good data on ammo that is easy to get and have a few rounds left over for next time. O0
UL
This. I always thought Wolf was...err, plinking ammo. Then I went to a Wolf sponsored KD shoot at Atterbury. 55 gr standard steel cased worked just fine and allowed me to qualify several times.
What Unbridled Liberty and slim said.
Last KD I used some Wolf. Match grade? Nah. Good enough? Yeah. I'm saving the good stuff.
It did start dropping pretty hard after 300 yards though. At 400 yds if I aimed way above the head I would hit the 3 ring right below the 4 ring every time. Still haven't figured out the exact come ups since I concentrate on making hits without messing with my scope too much. It was definitely not 2,2,3,3. Maybe 2,2,4,6? Maybe it was just that batch? It's not the best but it's a good learning experience.
I'm not the best shooting instructor but I make the hits every time.
I read a comparison of Federal XM193, Wolf and Tula. It said that the bullet jacket material on the economy brand ammo is bi metal, copper and steel, and they found it was much harder on the barrels of their rifles than the Federal surplus ammo.
QuoteAs indicated by accuracy testing, the steel cased/bimetal jacketed ammunition caused accelerated wear to the inside of their respective bores. While the barrel of the Federal carbine had plenty of life left, even after 10,000 rounds at extremely high rates of fire, the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels were subjected to the same rates of fire and were completely “shot out” by 6,000 rounds.
QuoteThe steel cases themselves don’t have any effect on the condition of the bore. The difference lies with the projectile – the soft copper jacket of the Federal ammunition simply doesn’t cause the same amount of wear as the bimetal (copper and steel) jacket of the Russian ammunition.
Now, it took a lot of shooting to wear those barrels out and a lot of it was rapid fire. I thought it was interesting, though.
I might just have to try some of the Wolf because I could probably save enough money to afford a new barrel anyway.
QuoteThe difference in price between brass and steel cased (more specifically, copper jacketed and bimetal jacketed) ammunition means that you’ll have plenty of savings with which to buy new barrels – even if you shoot so fast that you replace them every 4,000 rounds. For this chart, brass ammunition was calculated at $130 per thousand higher than steel and replacement barrels at $250 apiece.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
I'd just like to be able to shoot a lot. :---
55 grain 5.56 will work just fine out to 400. We shot a KD AS this past weekend with up to 28 mph winds, including up to 18 mph at full value while I was shooting. I shoot 77 SMKs (Mk 262 Mod 1 clone) out of a Compass Lake Service Rifle at 2821 fps. Other guys were able to hold the paper nearly as well with Wolf 55 and XM193. 400 yards isn't that far. The 77s and 62s start slower than 55s. The 55s drop energy faster. Know your dope. You'll be fine. We're talking about big targets here, with the 4 ring (black) being around 20" wide!
Bring what you got. They'll be fine to 400. Fine for 600. Having a 20" AR makes more difference than the rounds, but again, bring what you have.
Lots of folks have a hard time believing that out here in New Mexico I can get a 77 SMK out to 1100 yards consistently...but on a light crosswind day or a no value wind day, we can smack that 1100-yards buffalo all day long with a 77 SMKs out of my CLE SR. Of course the range is at 6800 feet and density altitude helps...as does a target the size of a buffalo!
Bring what ya got!
FYI, on a good day at our shoots, we can run 3 Full Distance AQTs at NRA Whittington after a short warm up of about an hour. If you pushed it hard and had a nice facility, you might be able to push it to 4 in a long day. That's 40 rounds per AQT. Figure 160 rounds of AQT shooting on a LONG day. Plus 40 rounds or so to warm up.
/David
Edgewood, NM
Short answer to the OP: It really depends on the Shoot Boss for the event. :)
I'm the SB for the one-day Full Distance clinic in Manchester, TN later this month. (BTW, there are still four spots available!)
COF:
- The first couple of hours is classroom instruction.
- Then confirm zero & sighters.
- Lunch/History.
- AQTs.
- Awards, group pics, AAR, cleanup.
I've chosen to use a hits count AQT scoring (40 out of 50 shots to qualify) to simplify scoring. Stage 4 is 20 rounds.
Here are my planning factors:
Confirm Zero: 10-20 rounds (Preferrably 5, but whatever)
Sighters at distance: 20 rounds (enough to do 100/300 twice, or once at each distance)
Hits Count AQTs, 3x: 150 rounds
Total, less than 200 rounds. I advised my shooters to bring 250 rounds, but I don't think we'll get four AQTs in as we're shooting in flights.
YMMV.
-Rusty
I have previously shot many AQTs at summertime Appleseeds in tropical afternoon Florida rainstorms with winds varying over 10-45 mph during a single or two stages. (Stages 3/4, or just stage 3 or stage 4.) These storms happen nearly daily in the summer around 3:30 to 4:30 pm. No lightning, just high winds and buckets of rain. Based on Strelok calculations, the 55 grain bullets won't get the job done at 400 yards, and will be iffy at 300.
If the weather is perfect, then 55 grain will work fine out to 500 + yards. Even up to around 30 mph winds if the wind doesn't shift multiple times through shooting a stage. But, with the assumption that our typical tropical rainstorms will blow through as usual just as I start shooting at KD AQT targets, and shooting at an elevation of only 31 feet above sea level, I prefer to try and have some margins. Hence my reasoning for having some heavier bullets. YMMV. Going cheap can be good, but a Rifleman needs to have an understanding of the magnitudes of extreme environmental effects if they happen nearly daily where the shoots are.
The CMP shoots on the same 600 yard range are all over by around 10 or 11 AM incidentally. They learned long ago that the summertime rainstorms will come through in the afternoons.
By the way, shooting at stages 3 and 4 in full value wind at one AQT in a tropical windy rainstorm at 25 meters pushed the POI off by a post-calculated value of 0.94 inches. How much were my shots off on the target? Just a hair under 1 inch. Where Strelok predicted they should be. I only shot a 194 on that target! No excuses, just an improved understanding of Windage effects! They can really matter!
By the way, while writing this, the weather alert radio went off. It predicted winds up to 60 mph for today's afternoon rainstorm! This is a little worse than usual.
Thanks for the added perspective. It helps to hear from people who have done this before. I was able to get 300 rounds of 62gr Lake City XM855 for the KD so I think that should be plenty.
Finally got my AR together and shot 50 rounds this past weekend. I can't believe how accurate it was when sighting in at 25 yds. This is so much more fun to shoot than a rimfire! :---
(http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u517/Bflynt1/8f91f18e-c82d-40af-a9c9-871cfa5e95ed_zpsa6df01ad.jpg~original)
Bought some of the full size KD targets from the Appleseed Store and shot some standing and seated at 100 -200 yds. It went OK once I learned where to hold. Might not score Rifleman but I know I'll have a good time and learn a lot.
Rusty, I'll be there at Manchester for the whole weekend. See you on Saturday! O0
Quote from: Guntuckian on May 15, 2014, 05:32:34 PM
I have previously shot many AQTs at summertime Appleseeds in tropical afternoon Florida rainstorms with winds varying over 10-45 mph during a single or two stages. (Stages 3/4, or just stage 3 or stage 4.) These storms happen nearly daily in the summer around 3:30 to 4:30 pm. No lightning, just high winds and buckets of rain. Based on Strelok calculations, the 55 grain bullets won't get the job done at 400 yards, and will be iffy at 300.
If the weather is perfect, then 55 grain will work fine out to 500 + yards. Even up to around 30 mph winds if the wind doesn't shift multiple times through shooting a stage. But, with the assumption that our typical tropical rainstorms will blow through as usual just as I start shooting at KD AQT targets, and shooting at an elevation of only 31 feet above sea level, I prefer to try and have some margins. Hence my reasoning for having some heavier bullets. YMMV. Going cheap can be good, but a Rifleman needs to have an understanding of the magnitudes of extreme environmental effects if they happen nearly daily where the shoots are.
The CMP shoots on the same 600 yard range are all over by around 10 or 11 AM incidentally. They learned long ago that the summertime rainstorms will come through in the afternoons.
By the way, shooting at stages 3 and 4 in full value wind at one AQT in a tropical windy rainstorm at 25 meters pushed the POI off by a post-calculated value of 0.94 inches. How much were my shots off on the target? Just a hair under 1 inch. Where Strelok predicted they should be. I only shot a 194 on that target! No excuses, just an improved understanding of Windage effects! They can really matter!
By the way, while writing this, the weather alert radio went off. It predicted winds up to 60 mph for today's afternoon rainstorm! This is a little worse than usual.
175 grain SMKs out of a 308 won't get the job done very well in 30+ mph FV wind either at 400+ unless you are a wind doping genius. I shot a match in those conditions late last month. Made some connections on 12" plates out to 750 yds, but missed more than I hit in a 30-46 mph 3/4 to FV crosswind.
Bring what ya got and have a MOA or MIL based reticle if possible so you know what you are holding off.
/David