I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.
I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. :wb:
No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.
Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?
Try resting before you get into position. Put your sling on but instead of getting into position just lay down like you're going to take a nap. Then after you're nice and relaxed, raise up into position.
If you're muscles are tensing and your hands are shaking, your sling is probably way too loose. There should be no "holding" that rifle up there in the pocket. It should rest on top of your support hand and be sandwiched into your shoulder so hard that you don't even need your trigger hand up there.
I'd bet dollars to donuts if you cranked your sling about two inches tighter and tried this all again you'd be good to go.
Another thing you may want to consider is your index to the target. Often NPOA issues result from being improperly indexed. Try to index a little more (or less).
Yeah - I struggled with this for several Appleseed weekends!
Frustrating isn't it!?!?
Best advice that I can give is to not worry about heading out to the range, heck don't even worry about dry firing.
Just make a regular habit of slinging up and RELAXING into your NPOA at home.
You can get past it! The more being in position is a habit the easier it will be to relax.
(And dry fire is great - just not until you can be relaxed in position)
Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.
I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. :wb:
No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.
Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?
Harmonica,
It will sound very odd, but the key to learning NPOA is not range practice (so much) or the eyes closed drill.
The KEY is Dry Fire Practice:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=34387.0
I like to use the scaled 12 foot AQT and fire a single AQT dry at least 3 or 4 days a week. Takes all of 10 minutes.
To confirm improvement at the range I suggest the following:
NPOA Drill (not the eyes closed one) on a Squares target. Post the 25 Meter squares at any angle on the target backer except vertically or horizontally. Prep one mag 5 rounds. The goal is one round in the each of the 5 black squares. Shoot in prone with no time limit. Take your time, relax relax relax -- wiggle those muscles a little before you open your eye to cofirm our NPOA is on target. The only muscle tension should be in the Frim HandShake Grip of your trigger hand. Every other muscle group needs to relax. Relax into the sling. If your position falls apart when you relax either your Steady Hold Factors need to be corrected or sling needs to be adjusted.
Once you can consistently put one round in at least 4 of 5 squares, try the eyes closed drill if you like. I don't think the eyes closed drill is particularly instructive to the shooter on how to move NPOA on the target, rather it's purpose is to demonstrate NPOA exists. You will know when it begins to come to together and dry fire practice with the Steady Hold Factors and every shot by the Six Steps -- especially good follow through calling every shot will get you there. ;D
Once it comes together in prone for you, ping me back and I have some effective pointers to verify NPOA in standing, but let's take it a step at a time.
Best wishes,
fisherdawg
Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.
I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. :wb:
No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.
Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?
BTW -- yes others experience it -- I did. That's why it took me 5 events to get my patch because I didn't do dry fire practice. I had stalled around 170 on the AQT. Once I got serious about dry fire which showed me the 'little' things I was doing wrong, I shot a 212 and qualified on the last AQT on a Sunday after shooting in the 200's all weekend at that 5th event. DRY FIRE, that's the magic.
^:)^
;D
That drill is an example, not the point. Many people find that they shoot better groups that way. But not all. The best thing that you can do is forget about shooting with your eyes closed. It doesn't matter. I'll give you another drill that you can work with, spend some time shooting at a blank piece of paper (ie, no target). See what your groups look like after you do this.
One day you will be shooting or dryfiring or otherwise slung up and it will suddenly hit you that you are relaxed. When you do that and you position is otherwise good, you will come out of recoil and reach respiratory pause with the sights perfectly aligned and the sight picture right where you want it. Then you just focus on the front sight and activate the trigger without disturbing the sights. It will be MAGIC. Until then do you best and don't worry about any specific drill.
If you keep at it, you will experience another Ah, Ha moment when your realize that you are really, truly focusing on the front sight. I guarantee that you will remember where you are and how it feels for the rest of your life. For now though, just relax stick to the fundamentals and shoot well.
Quote from: jmdavis on April 21, 2014, 07:39:00 PM
That drill is an example, not the point. Many people find that they shoot better groups that way. But not all. The best thing that you can do is forget about shooting with your eyes closed. It doesn't matter. I'll give you another drill that you can work with, spend some time shooting at a blank piece of paper (ie, no target). See what your groups look like after you do this.
One day you will be shooting or dryfiring or otherwise slung up and it will suddenly hit you that you are relaxed. When you do that and you position is otherwise good, you will come out of recoil and reach respiratory pause with the sights perfectly aligned and the sight picture right where you want it. Then you just focus on the front sight and activate the trigger without disturbing the sights. It will be MAGIC. Until then do you best and don't worry about any specific drill.
If you keep at it, you will experience another Ah, Ha moment when your realize that you are really, truly focusing on the front sight. I guarantee that you will remember where you are and how it feels for the rest of your life. For now though, just relax stick to the fundamentals and shoot well.
++1
JMD has been at this a lot longer than me.
;D
Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.
I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. :wb:
No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.
Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?
Harmonica,
Also I'd recommend you put the scoped rifles away for awhile and focus on this issue. Not only focus the issue, but
Focus on the Front Sight let the target be blurry, fuzzy whatever. I can
barely see the silhouttes on Stage 4, but I can hit'em that way. 55 year old eyes! You aren't wearing progressive, no-line, bifocals are you? Cause they don't work with Iron Sights. Ask me how I know. ;) I do use the USMC 6 o'clock hold. If you have older eyes like me or such, ask about that. If not, it don't matter.
Hi Harmonica,
I bet that pretty much everyone has struggled through the same frustration when learning NPOA. I know I did. Once you know what it feels like to relax into it, it will be an aha moment like jmdavis said. Here are suggestions based on what helped me:
1) Dry fire practice. Like, a lot. As fisherdawg said, that is the key to NPOA.
2) Do your dry fire practice when you are naturally relaxed anyway. Right before bed or weekend mornings right after I got up were a great time for me. If you practice when you are tense, (like when I got home from work) it is much harder to relax. I like Slim's suggestion to lay down and rest first.
3) When you're in position, close your eyes and just breathe for a long time. Feel your support arm fall as your shoulder relaxes (at least that's how it felt for me - not sure if it's that way for everyone, lol). It WILL feel unnatural at first, until your muscles stretch. It gets much easier once that happens.
Keep at it! It will come if you dry fire practice religiously. I try to every day.
Minutemom
Get a cheap laser bore sight. Stick a black piece of tape on the wall, sling up, relax and watch where the laser goes as you inhale/exhale. If your elbow is properly under the rifle it should track straight up and down. Watch what happens when you move your cheek, wobble your support foot or otherwise tense up. It will give you instant feedback into everything you are doing and every slight bit of extra muscle input. You can even have someone else rack the bolt and simulate recoil while dry firing with your eyes closed while they watch the laser. If you are not squeezing the trigger straight back smoothly, the laser will bounce left or right. If it bounces low and right, you might not have the rifle snug against the shoulder and may be gripping your other fingers tighter as you pull the trigger. If it bounces up and right you could be "heeling" (pushing) the rifle with your support hand. Up and left you may be tensing your trigger shoulder. Essentially, whichever way the laser bounces, cross reference the yellow "diagnostic" handout you got at Appleseed and it should give you a good idea without wasting a single round of ammo.
Try the laser, if you like, but don't get too caught up in it either. Relaxation will come in time.
There's a story about Olympic Pistol shooter Don Hamiliton that I think is a good one. It shows that exercises don't always show what they purport to.
You all know what Ball and Dummy is, right. Well some fellow Navy Shooters decided to play a joke on Hamilton one time and they replaced a live round in one of his magazines at practice with a dummy round. The result was described to me as him "burying the muzzle in the ground." Now in this case the shooter was an Olympian and held the National Conventional Pistol record for more than 30 years. In other words he knew what he was doing and had the medals and targets to prove it. ]
Practice and don't worry about the exercises.
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. O0
Quote from: Harmonica on April 22, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. O0
Let us know how it goes. We're rootin' for ya!
;D
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine. Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!) At AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's. The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope. I replaced the high scope rings that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me. With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.
I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat. Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights. This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon. When that happens, my groups degrade.
Yet, with an M1 Garand, I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!
This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score! The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels. (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives? :)
(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)
Quote from: fisherdawg on April 22, 2014, 06:16:41 PM
Quote from: Harmonica on April 22, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. O0
Let us know how it goes. We're rootin' for ya!
;D
I'm getting there slow but sure. I can already tell my sling was adjusted too long.
We'd be glad to have you on the line down here in TN next time you're in the area. O0
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine. Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!) At AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's. The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope. I replaced the high scope rings that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me. With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.
I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat. Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights. This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon. When that happens, my groups degrade.
Yet, with an M1 Garand, I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!
This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score! The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels. (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives? :)
(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)
Well my eyes are OK I just can't shoot worth a crap. I figure even if I'm off target, the shots should still be tight groups if I'm in NPOA.
I shot three Rifleman scores in a row at my second weekend but it felt like cheating using a scope and I muscled onto the target a lot.
I'll be shooting a carry handle equipped ar15 at a KD in May so I need to get these irons figured out!
Take care and keep at it, my friend. :---
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine. Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!) At AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's. The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope. I replaced the high scope rings that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me. With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.
I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat. Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights. This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon. When that happens, my groups degrade.
Yet, with an M1 Garand, I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!
This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score! The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels. (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives? :)
(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)
Guntuckian,
As a 55 year old with the same issues, I can tell you need a set of single vision glasses with a focal length that allows sharp focus on the front sight if you want to achieve high cores with iron sights. V, Shoot Boss from California, clued me into the Revision Military Sawfly glasses with the prescription inserts. All my optometrist / optician did was make the lenses with my distance correction only. But you don't need anything fancy, just good protection. It works very well for the Garand and pretty well with the 10/22, but the sad truth is you may different glasses for different barrel lengths. I might experiment with stick-on lenses at some point too. Shooting KD well with irons, especially steel targets, is so dang fun I think it's worth the trouble. After all you only need one set of glasses for similiar barrel lengths, but good scopes ain't cheap, neither!
>:D
Quote from: fisherdawg on April 22, 2014, 11:38:10 PM
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine. Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!) At AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's. The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope. I replaced the high scope rings that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me. With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.
I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat. Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights. This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon. When that happens, my groups degrade.
Yet, with an M1 Garand, I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!
This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score! The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels. (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives? :)
(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)
Guntuckian,
As a 55 year old with the same issues, I can tell you need a set of single vision glasses with a focal length that allows sharp focus on the front sight if you want to achieve high cores with iron sights. V, Shoot Boss from California, clued me into the Revision Military Sawfly glasses with the prescription inserts. All my optometrist / optician did was make the lenses with my distance correction only. But you don't need anything fancy, just good protection. It works very well for the Garand and pretty well with the 10/22, but the sad truth is you may different glasses for different barrel lengths. I might experiment with stick-on lenses at some point too. Shooting KD well with irons, especially steel targets, is so dang fun I think it's worth the trouble. After all you only need one set of glasses for similiar barrel lengths, but good scopes ain't cheap, neither!
>:D
46 yo with terrible vision and progressive lenses... I struggle with irons on 4 MOA targets at 25m but I do decent at 100y on 4MOA targets. Granted, different sight radius...
Another option for the Rx shooting glasses is the ESS ICE Naro.
Fisherdawg, thanks for the tip on the stick-on lenses... Didn't know they exist!
Guntuckian, my partner PleasedtoAim uses progressive lenses for normal life, but couldn't shoot with them at all. Something about those lenses really screws up sight alignment. She got a single-plane Sawfly and immediately shot Rifleman with Tech-Sights. We price-shopped hard after the optometrist recommended some fancy "sports" glasses for $600, and found the Revision Military four-color set was the best bargain at under $200 shipped from Optics Planet. I also have the Sawfly for my astigmatism. Other advantages are that the temples are thin so they don't press into your skull under earmuffs, and the lenses conform well to the face providing outstanding protection.
Quote from: FiremanBob on April 23, 2014, 11:26:11 AM
Guntuckian, my partner PleasedtoAim uses progressive lenses for normal life, but couldn't shoot with them at all. Something about those lenses really screws up sight alignment. She got a single-plane Sawfly and immediately shot Rifleman with Tech-Sights. We price-shopped hard after the optometrist recommended some fancy "sports" glasses for $600, and found the Revision Military four-color set was the best bargain at under $200 shipped from Optics Planet. I also have the Sawfly for my astigmatism. Other advantages are that the temples are thin so they don't press into your skull under earmuffs, and the lenses conform well to the face providing outstanding protection.
Also you may want to view the review on lucky gunner on mil spec versus regular eye pro. Saw Fly and simliar provide a much higher degree of safety.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/eye-protection-shooting-glasses-review/
Don't ever feel like you are cheating when you use a scope. A scope does not make shoot better. Let me repeat that. A scope does not make you shoot better.
It helps you to see better. For some people that improves their shooting. For those with good eyes their scores are essentially the same.
+1, absolutely, +1 on jmd's comment below.
Rather, sometimes (especially) a scoped .22lr at 25 meters
can make good shooting harder if the magnification is enough to show each hit to the shooter. If the shooter responds by 'fussing' the next shoot to center of the target by 'muscling' rather than applying the fundamentals (Steady Hold Factors / Six Steps / NPOA Verified on Target) on every shot and shooting in Rifleman's Cadence then the shooter will not be practicing the fundamentals into a habit. Instead they will have a larger group.
I do not consider it cheating whatsoever to use my scoped .22lr in NRA Smallbore -- Standing No Sling ('Offhand') at 40/60/77/100 yards at 1-2 MOA targets. Rather it is application of the fundamentals with scoped rifle that will lead to high scores or meat on the table when hunting.
>:D
Quote from: jmdavis on April 23, 2014, 04:23:49 PM
Don't ever feel like you are cheating when you use a scope. A scope does not make shoot better. Let me repeat that. A scope does not make you shoot better.
It helps you to see better. For some people that improves their shooting. For those with good eyes their scores are essentially the same.
Thanks for all the tips! I am now seriously looking into getting the Revision Sawfly with prescription inserts! I didn't know these existed!
My vision, as tested two months ago, is 20/15 when corrected with Vari-lux Comfort Fit no line progressives that I have worn for 18 months. Also, I have astigmatism and require a slight prism in my prescription. This 20/15 was measured with polycarbonate lenses, and they are impact resistant, as I also regularly do machining and wanted protection when running either the lathe or mill in addition to safety googles. So, my vision is still good, but I can definitely tell my near point focusing ability varies with time of day.
What was most aggravating in my quest to AS Rifleman at age 56-57 is that I could remember easily killing groundhogs regularly as a teenager under field conditions on my grandparents' farms shooting prone with factory iron sights shooting a 30-06 at paced distances exceeding 300-350 yards, even without a sling. But, back then, I could focus clearly on the front post, too!
I have not found much help from either my optometrist or ophthalmologist, both of whom are non-shooters, in understanding why the no-line progressives don't work with iron sights, and how to solve the front post clarity problem. But, I know they don't work! They had led me to believe that the no-line progressive would work!
I also had to go with a scope that could correct parallax at 25 meters, when shooting with the no-line progressives, as a 4x scope with parallax corrected at 75 yards didn't work in practice with my prescription in keeping my groups on target unless my cheek weld was exactly and precisely constant. Yet, with a scope with parallax corrected at 25 meters, the no-line progressives did work, and my cheek weld could vary up to about 1/4 inch, as experimented with using masking tape on the stock to index.
I am practicing for a KD AS, and have been working on how best to prepare with both an M4 clone scoped and with an M1 Garand (obtained through the CMP courtesy of my AS certificate!). So, the Revision Sawfly option sounds like a very good solution! Scoped may not be my only option! Time to experiment with the Revision Sawfly option! ^:)^
(Draken, I am looking forward to shooting with you at the KD, old friend!)
Ebay is your friend on this one. NEW Revision Sawfly surplus $28.45 free shipping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-MILITARY-REVISION-SAWFLY-MISSION-CRITICAL-EYE-WEAR-APEL-SYSTEM-KIT-NEW-/251475092279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8d156337
Rx Insert $10! I have purchased from wwarbucks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVISION-SAWFLY-PRESCRIPTION-INSERTS-/291070632352?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c52961a0
His new in pack sawfly 38.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVISION-SAWFLY-GLASSES-KIT-IMPACT-RESISTANT-REGULAR-SIZE-NEW-IN-PACK-/290870806802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b9404912
He will combine shipping and as I said I had a good experience with him.
Thanks, Stand! Have ordered these! My optician can make and install the polycarbonate inserts!
Ebay is definitely a good approach! O0
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 23, 2014, 11:09:34 PM
Thanks for all the tips! I am now seriously looking into getting the Revision Sawfly with prescription inserts! I didn't know these existed!
My vision, as tested two months ago, is 20/15 when corrected with Vari-lux Comfort Fit no line progressives that I have worn for 18 months. Also, I have astigmatism and require a slight prism in my prescription. This 20/15 was measured with polycarbonate lenses, and they are impact resistant, as I also regularly do machining and wanted protection when running either the lathe or mill in addition to safety googles. So, my vision is still good, but I can definitely tell my near point focusing ability varies with time of day.
What was most aggravating in my quest to AS Rifleman at age 56-57 is that I could remember easily killing groundhogs regularly as a teenager under field conditions on my grandparents' farms shooting prone with factory iron sights shooting a 30-06 at paced distances exceeding 300-350 yards, even without a sling. But, back then, I could focus clearly on the front post, too!
I have not found much help from either my optometrist or ophthalmologist, both of whom are non-shooters, in understanding why the no-line progressives don't work with iron sights, and how to solve the front post clarity problem. But, I know they don't work! They had led me to believe that the no-line progressive would work!
I also had to go with a scope that could correct parallax at 25 meters, when shooting with the no-line progressives, as a 4x scope with parallax corrected at 75 yards didn't work in practice with my prescription in keeping my groups on target unless my cheek weld was exactly and precisely constant. Yet, with a scope with parallax corrected at 25 meters, the no-line progressives did work, and my cheek weld could vary up to about 1/4 inch, as experimented with using masking tape on the stock to index.
I am practicing for a KD AS, and have been working on how best to prepare with both an M4 clone scoped and with an M1 Garand (obtained through the CMP courtesy of my AS certificate!). So, the Revision Sawfly option sounds like a very good solution! Scoped may not be my only option! Time to experiment with the Revision Sawfly option! ^:)^
(Draken, I am looking forward to shooting with you at the KD, old friend!)
I'm very loyal to my optometrist too, but I may look around for one who's a shooter for this bit of work....
I shoot the scope with my progressives generally and consistent cheek is essential in my experience.
personally I would place an order for single vision lenses from Zenni Optical or other inexpensive online retailer before spending alot of of money on "special" glasses. For rifles with AR sight radiuses the basic math is distance perscription +.75 for a hyperfocal focus (essentially 2x the sight radius. This will not put either the front sight or the target in perfect focus but via accomodation and the peep sights you should be able to focus on the front sight and identify your target and sight picture. Another relatively inexpensive option is to have Bob Jones (http://www.bjonessights.com/glasses.html) make you a pair of astigmatism corrected glasses with round lenses that allow you to clock the lens to whatever angle you need. Many people find that their astigmatism axis may change by a few degrees throughout a day of shooting. All of this info is for iron sights, if you want to focus on the scope you seem like you have something workable already.
Takeaways:
1. Progressive bifocals do not lend themselves to shooting with irons.
2. For AR length sight radiuses adding +.75 diopters to your distance scrip works for many people.
3. round lenses allow you to fine-tune your astigmatism correction over the course of a day.
Mike
Well, here goes my 2 cents worth. A lot of really good info from guys with a LOT of experience so far in this thread. But, you mentioned, you still get vertical stringing. According to my handout entitled talking targets, one possibility for vertical stringing is the positioning of the butt stock in your shoulder pocket. You could be doing everything else correctly, but still get vertical stringing if the butt of your stock moves up or down. Is it smooth and slick? Ahh ha! Peel and stick sandpaper for a quick fix. Just something else to check out.
Quote from: RODGE on April 24, 2014, 04:15:15 PM
Well, here goes my 2 cents worth. A lot of really good info from guys with a LOT of experience so far in this thread. But, you mentioned, you still get vertical stringing. According to my handout entitled talking targets, one possibility for vertical stringing is the positioning of the butt stock in your shoulder pocket. You could be doing everything else correctly, but still get vertical stringing if the butt of your stock moves up or down. Is it smooth and slick? Ahh ha! Peel and stick sandpaper for a quick fix. Just something else to check out.
I have had problems with it sliding down when in position for longer strings of fire and I had considered grip tape. I'm going to get some and see if that helps . Thanks for reminding me!
When I was having trouble with vertical stringing, it turned out for me being I wasn't getting all the air out of my lungs consistently. Simply exhaling and shooting at a normal respiratory pause didn't get all the air out the same amount every time for me, depending on how tired I was. But, I have had asthma for many decades, too. The solution for me was pursing my lips and blowing the air out, both for sighting in and shooting, as asthmatics were once taught, using pursed lips upon feeling lung tightness, when exhaling on stages 3 and 4 and when sighting in. I then have several seconds before my vision fades due to oxygenation exhaustion. Until I learned this, I had vertical stringing that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch top to bottom at 25 meters. When I learned this, I started getting vertical stringing well under 1/4 inch, often with 7 or more rounds touching POI at 25 meters.
On the other hand, I still sometimes get horizontal stringing that is correlated with heartbeats that seems to be just under 1/2 inch when in prone on stage 4 at times. I can see this in the scope even when set for 4x. I have been using a leather sling, but no shooting jacket, just a long sleeve shirt. If I shoot without the long sleeve shirt, the left to right movement with heart beats gets worse.
Being I shoot in the Florida heat, a shooting jacket just doesn't work longer than 10-15 minutes, or I get overheated. The pulse patch on it does suppress this heartbeat stringing, though.
That being said, would a web sling work better for suppressing heartbeat L-R stringing movements than a leather sling when shooting with just a long sleeve shirt? I haven't tried this yet, as I just got a web sling since the last Appleseed. Anyone have any experience with horizontal stringing with heartbeats?
I have tried tying a bandana around my left upper arm, simulating a pulse patch, and this did help reduce the horizontal stringing, when shooting with a leather sling. But, the bandana works loose easily when transitioning on stage 3. :(
Quote from: Guntuckian on April 26, 2014, 07:59:55 PM
When I was having trouble with vertical stringing, it turned out for me being I wasn't getting all the air out of my lungs consistently. Simply exhaling and shooting at a normal respiratory pause didn't get all the air out the same amount every time for me, depending on how tired I was. But, I have had asthma for many decades, too. The solution for me was pursing my lips and blowing the air out, both for sighting in and shooting, as asthmatics were once taught, using pursed lips upon feeling lung tightness, when exhaling on stages 3 and 4 and when sighting in. I then have several seconds before my vision fades due to oxygenation exhaustion. Until I learned this, I had vertical stringing that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch top to bottom at 25 meters. When I learned this, I started getting vertical stringing well under 1/4 inch, often with 7 or more rounds touching POI at 25 meters.
On the other hand, I still sometimes get horizontal stringing that is correlated with heartbeats that seems to be just under 1/2 inch when in prone on stage 4 at times. I can see this in the scope even when set for 4x. I have been using a leather sling, but no shooting jacket, just a long sleeve shirt. If I shoot without the long sleeve shirt, the left to right movement with heart beats gets worse.
Being I shoot in the Florida heat, a shooting jacket just doesn't work longer than 10-15 minutes, or I get overheated. The pulse patch on it does suppress this heartbeat stringing, though.
That being said, would a web sling work better for suppressing heartbeat L-R stringing movements than a leather sling when shooting with just a long sleeve shirt? I haven't tried this yet, as I just got a web sling since the last Appleseed. Anyone have any experience with horizontal stringing with heartbeats?
I have tried tying a bandana around my left upper arm, simulating a pulse patch, and this did help reduce the horizontal stringing, when shooting with a leather sling. But, the bandana works loose easily when transitioning on stage 3. :(
I do need to work at getting a consistent respiratory pause but it's proving to be difficult. Being a two pack a day smoker may be a factor but I'm starting to use a vapor pen so I think it's doing something to improve on that. I know it's better for me than the real smokes, by far. It's nice to be part of a program that has me taking some positive steps away from the firing line!
One positive from this weekend was realizing that when I bring my trigger side knee up further forward, it's easier to move forward and get the sling working to stabilize me. It also gets my big fat gut off the ground some and that helps for sure. I'm still not all that relaxed, but I'm getting there. I made some adjustments to the comb height on both my 22 rifles and my neck stopped getting sore and fatigued! ..:..
I worked both Saturday and Sunday with iron sights and I'm afraid I'll have to try switching to shooting right handed with irons. I can see the front sight on my Glock better with my right eye so maybe that's where the trouble is. I'll try dry firing right handed this week because it's just not going to work if I can't focus with my left eye.
This morning, I used a cheap BSA scope on 3x and the android Appleseed timer app. Put up an AQT target and shot a 231 despite a horrible stage 2. I went 49 / 50 on stage four with the scope and had time to spare on each stage and also cleared a Redcoat target. I then shot some drill squares with the irons and some five shot squares didn't even have one hit inside the square. :wb:
Thanks, all of you, for the suggestions and encouragement!
If you're able to shoot a 231 in practice with a scope, then I'm not so sure establishing NPOA is as big of a problem as you might be thinking it is. You simply can't muscle a rifle onto a target and shoot that kind of score.
You mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related. And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry". That's true for most of us. :) I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.
Have you established which is your dominant eye? Do you shoot with both eyes open? Do you see the tip of the front sight post in perfect focus with iron sights? All of these things will affect your shooting with iron sights.
My personal experience wasn't entirely different from yours. At my first Appleseed I easily shot a Rifleman score with a scope, and then became extremely frustrated that I could not easily duplicate that feat with iron sights. As it turned out, shooting iron sights well is neither as hard, nor as easy, as many people think.
First thing I learned, is that shooting with iron sights is a learned skill. It seems simple enough to align a post in a notch or in the center of an aperture, but it really is something that takes some practice and some experience. I see people all the time who give up on iron sights because they find them difficult, or they don't think they see well enough, or their presbyopia makes it hard to focus on the front sight, or whatever. There are scads of excuses. There are also solutions to every one of them. I shoot with plenty of guys in their 60's and older who can out shoot me with iron sights, and I'd hazard a guess Fred is likely one of them. :)
Once I learned how to effectively use iron sights, and understood a bit more about how my cross-dominant eye and my mild presbyopia were affecting my shooting, I can now easily shoot a Rifleman score with iron sights. I'd love to hear more about what you "see" when you're shooting iron sights, and I'm sure the many instructors here can offer some good suggestions!
Quote from: Agrivere on April 28, 2014, 10:04:11 AM
If you're able to shoot a 231 in practice with a scope, then I'm not so sure establishing NPOA is as big of a problem as you might be thinking it is. You simply can't muscle a rifle onto a target and shoot that kind of score.
I feel that if it weren't a problem, my groups with iron sights might be off target, but would still be in a decent group due to being in NPOA. Mine are shotgun wild, most times. I did shoot a 207 with irons at my first weekend but all other AQTs were in the 160 - 180 range.
QuoteYou mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related. And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry". That's true for most of us. :) I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.
Have you established which is your dominant eye? Do you shoot with both eyes open? Do you see the tip of the front sight post in perfect focus with iron sights? All of these things will affect your shooting with iron sights.
I was sure that my left eye was my dominant eye but I'm not so sure anymore after struggling so bad with irons. It seems to me now that I can see the front sight with better focus with my right eye. I got rained out at the range on Sunday before I could see how it translated to groups on paper.
QuoteMy personal experience wasn't entirely different from yours. At my first Appleseed I easily shot a Rifleman score with a scope, and then became extremely frustrated that I could not easily duplicate that feat with iron sights. As it turned out, shooting iron sights well is neither as hard, nor as easy, as many people think.
First thing I learned, is that shooting with iron sights is a learned skill. It seems simple enough to align a post in a notch or in the center of an aperture, but it really is something that takes some practice and some experience. I see people all the time who give up on iron sights because they find them difficult, or they don't think they see well enough, or their presbyopia makes it hard to focus on the front sight, or whatever. There are scads of excuses. There are also solutions to every one of them. I shoot with plenty of guys in their 60's and older who can out shoot me with iron sights, and I'd hazard a guess Fred is likely one of them. :)
Once I learned how to effectively use iron sights, and understood a bit more about how my cross-dominant eye and my mild presbyopia were affecting my shooting, I can now easily shoot a Rifleman score with iron sights. I'd love to hear more about what you "see" when you're shooting iron sights, and I'm sure the many instructors here can offer some good suggestions!
It's hard to describe, but I think the front sight looks sharper, more focused with my right eye. Sorry to be so vague but I'm not sure how else to say it.
I sure do appreciate you lending your perspective and expertise. This is something I'll continue to work on. My struggles with irons and the fact that I haven't shot Rifleman at a KD yet are two of the reasons I turned down an orange hat.
A 1/4" square at 20 feet. You can do that in your house. I mean NPOA and dry fire practice of course (unless you like holes in your wall). That's what did it for me.
Have learned a lot from this thread. On the Revision Military Sawfly option, I now have mine, ordered via eBay, and have also ordered prescription inserts. As it turned out, it was much harder getting prescription inserts ordered for the Revision Sawfly than expected.
All regular optical places would only fill my script for prescription inserts with exactly the same Rx as the script was written for, which wasn't going to give me a +0.75 adder on my distance prescription like I needed for my dominant eye when shooting iron sights on a rifle. And, the ophthalmologist at the original place just said, "You don't have 20 year old eyes anymore" and wouldn't change my script to give me the shooting prescription I needed. He was a non-shooter.
Fortunately, there was an independent optician in the same office who was a shooter. He couldn't modify my script and make what I wanted, due to state law. But, he quietly talked to me off to the side, and recommended I go to another place, with the only optometrist in town who was a shooter who would know exactly what I needed. I then went to this optometrist, and he modified my script for what I needed, no new eye exam required, and additionally recommended I go with Trivex in place of polycarbonate lenses, due to the particulars of my prescription, as polycarbonate lenses would have too much chromatic dispersion to shoot iron sights accurately. He also was very specific in inquiring exactly what kind of shooting I was wanting to do, as the details for modifying my script would vary greatly depending on shotgun vs. rifle vs. pistol shooting.
Lessons learned (for overcoming middle-age presbyopia and still shooting iron sights):
1.) Revision Military Sawfly + prescription inserts is very inexpensive when ordered on eBay. Less than $40. And, if you don't need prescription inserts, then you are fully protected with ANSI Z87.1 Standard eye protection, no further cost needed. (Protection against errant spitting lead and powder, with wraparound eye protection!)
2.) Assuming you are getting to an age where your arms are not long enough to read a newspaper anymore sans reading glasses, find an optometrist who is a shooter, otherwise you won't be able to get what you really need for your script.
3.) Determine what type of shooting you are wanting to do. The appropriate diopter adders required on your dominant, shooting, eye, for your spherical prescription, are:
+1.00 for M1911 or similar pistol iron sights
+0.75 for AR-15 or Ruger 10-22 iron sights
+0.50 for M1 Garand or similar iron sights
+0.25 to +0.30 for Mosin Nagant rifles, or similar, longer sighting radius rifles, with iron sights
4.) Get the optical center (sweet spot) on the dominant eye lens placed in the right place:
a.) dead center for shotgun or slightly above this for pistol
b.) upper left quadrant of dominant eye lens for a right handed shooter for iron sight rifle shooting
Also, be sure that the lab where you are getting this done has its own grinding capability. Otherwise, the standard upcharge for send-out work is around $10 per mm of prism, and you will likely need 24 mm, or so, of prism added, to move the sweet spot to the upper left quadrant of the lens, which is how they will want to put the sweet spot in the upper left of the dominant eye. Yet, if the lab has its own grinding capability, they can grind the lens with the sweet spot exactly where you need it, with no added upcharges or prism being required. Do this wrong, and you will pay an extra $240 for just one lens. Do it right, and you avoid any upcharge!
5. Get the non-dominant eye optical center placed in the center, the same as for normal eyeglasses. This way, you can read the wind flags and see the target clearly at 100, 200, 300, 400 yards, for KD Appleseeds, and even up to 500-600 yards for CMP or other shooting sports (F-class), with your non-dominant eye.
6.) Consider getting Trivex in place of polycarbonate for improved optical clarity, and lessened distortion, while getting the same protection against UV and slightly better protection against impacts. Depending on your prescription, this may even be recommended by the optometrist who is a shooter that understands the optics involved. Trivex was invented by the US Army in 2001 and is also know as visual armor. It provides the ultimate in eye protection (slightly better than polycarbonate), but with improved clarity slightly off axis, lessening distortion.
5.) If cost becomes a problem for the prescription inserts, consider getting CR-39 plastic lenses. Being inside the Revision Sawfly protection, CR-39 is very acceptable, and is what US Army recruits most commonly get with prescription inserts. But, if you are shooting MIL-surplus rifles, where incipient head separations for reloads is a real possibility, then you should consider polycarbonate lenses. If your eyes are worth an extra $20-30, then consider stepping up from polycarbonate to Trivex, and get improved impact protection and better (lessened) optical aberrations.
6.) It is possible to order Zenni Optical plastic lenses, or similar online, and these are available for around $35. But, they are not ANSI Z87.1 standard rated, and are not necessarily going to protect your eyes against errant shotgun pellets, lead shrapnel returning from a steel plate, or case head separations on .30 caliber cartridges. The total cost for Revision Military Sawfly shooting glasses with prescription inserts, and two shields (one clear, one smoke), microfiber cleaning cloth, microfiber storage bag, zippered enclosured storage bag with belt loops, ordering surplus Sawfly/inserts off eBay and getting even Trivex lenses custom made, is less than $180. Personally, I think my eyes are worth protecting with military spec protection (APEL: Approved Protective Eyeware List) for only $180. YMMV. (Incidentally, the optician at the first shop, who was the shooter, has gone the Oakley route; he spent right at $500 for his eye protection prescription shooting glasses, after getting a discount off the usual retail price of $600!)
(Locals: PM me and I can tell you who the shootin' optometrist in town is! He is a useful guy to know)
Nice work Guntuckian!
Invaluable for us 40+, 50+ crowd stubborn enough to shoot irons.
Thanks, I learned a lot.
As for those who say -- just tough it out somehow -- we're here to tell you that don't work. Proper prescription shooting glasses do work. Buy the correct tool once, and be done with it.
>:D
fisherdawg
Prescription shoting glasses can be reimbursed by medical flexible benefit plans.
The value of online retailers like Zenni optical is the ability to get prescriptions which you can try before spending hundreds of dollars on custom eyewear. You can tweak your prescription through and purchase normal or impact resistant sports glasses. That is also the value of having custom lensmakers like Art Nearguard of Shooting Sight llc (http://www.shootingsight.com (http://www.shootingsight.com))or Bob Jones (http://www.bjonessights.com (http://www.bjonessights.com))making custom lenses or inexpensive glasses for you.
As I noted earlier my preference is for round lenses that I can then rotate if my astigmatism changes by a few degrees during the day. While they are not safety rated, they do offer some protection from gasses, dust oil, etc. The military glasses are much more oriented to a two way rather than one way shooting range, and protect the eyes from dirt, rock and other projectiles that might be coming your way.
Also understand that the rules of thumb don't work the same for everyone. +.75 to distance is generally what you want for an AR, but your milage may vary.
I practiced some more this weekend and made some progress. First thing I did was get away from the 6 o clock hold and go back to holding where I want to hit. Then, using front and rear bags to zero, I tore out the center of the square with a 2 MOA group after some sight adjustments.
A lot of my groups today were probably good enough for Rifleman but I didn't have any more old AQT's to paste up and I didn't bring any new ones with me. :wb:
I feel like technique is more the problem than my vision. Since the rifle would jump a little on my bags when zeroing, I had to take aim again after each shot. Despite that, I still positioned the front sight well enough to shoot groups that were all touching so I don't think my eyes were that much of a problem.
My sight alignment had probably not been very consistent and I feel like that was the biggest problem. edit: Thanks to Agrivere for bringing this up:
QuoteYou mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related. And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry". That's true for most of us. :) I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.
I also was probably not trusting the sling and my aim, taking my focus off the front sight at times. There is still much more room for improvement, and perhaps an eye exam in my future, but I think I'm on the right track.
BTW, I also participated in an intro to IDPA of sorts this weekend and I shot pretty good with the G19. Another ammo burning gun hobby is all I need... :shootself:
I shoot USPSA every week along with regular Highpower matches and it's most certainly hard to keep up!