I recently purchased an AR15A4 GI style upper with 20" bbl. I an looking for a rear sight that is quality but economical. Under $50 if possible. I don't want a folding pop up sight. I want a partial standard rear sight that I can cowitness a scope or red dot with. I have found all sorts online but I want to know which ones to stay away from.
Something like this is what I am looking for:http://www.amazon.com/Global-Military-Gear-AR-15-Detachable/dp/B003K7V46E
olefido, I have the type of sight you're looking for on one of my ARs. (Yankee Hill brand). It co-witnesses fine with my dot (eotech) but not with a scope. I'm not sure you'll be ever to co-witness a scope with any type of iron sight. As a matter of fact, unless you mount the scope way forward, the BUIS (sits too high) will hit the scope and if you use taller rings the dot will sight below the scope and block your aiming. Keep the forum posted with your quest. I learn something new every day.
aj
Can someone explain this "co witness" I Have heard about from time to time.
It's when you set up your rear sight so that you can look through the aperture and see the dot from a red dot as well.
I personally think the process is a little complex and confusing and not terribly precise, but I know his who sweat by it and some that are able to show results. Mudcat, for example, used to run his AKs that way with red dots and he is a pretty sorted out feller. TBE had one rifle set up that way. It's probably what you ate going to end up doing to your SBR.
Unbridled Liberty was making 500 yard hits on a d target at atterbury with an Eotech red dot no cowitness I aint sayin it aint a good thing I want to learn more about it for when I come across it on the line
S2S, The way I understand co-witnessing is a condition where your rifle is zeroed with both (dot and BUIS) at the same time. Means that if you turn the dot off, your rifle is still zeroed using the BUIS and if you fold down the BUIS, the rifle is zeroed with the dot. Real world, when I look through my sights, with the BUIS in a correct sight alignment picture, I'll see the dot in very close proximity to the top of the front sight. It's a lot easier to see than to explain. The theory behind it is that if you're using the dot as your primary aiming tool, a battery failure or any other malfunction which renders the dot unuseable, you still have a means of accurately engaging whatever your target is.
aj
Check out Daniel Defence. You can get one of there rear fixed sights for around 50 dollars. They are very nice and built tough. Larue also makes a very nice one that is QD but a bit more money unless you watch the exchange on ar15.com then you can find them in that range.
As far as cowitnessing goes the reason is as stated above. It's a military thing because mr Murphy always shows up at the worst time. Especially with electronics such as red dot sights. So when he shows up you already have a back up plan that is sorted out. Most military units have followed socoms way though and went to lower 1/3 set ups as they are better for your field of view especially with fixed Front sight post like your talking about.
It all depends on what your running really. With my aimpoint micros I have 100% cowitnessing because I have flip up irons so it works great. If it had a FSP that is literally all you would see. With a set up with a fixed front sight post I much prefer lower 1/3 because otherwise all you see in the red dot is the front sight post. So you buy a mount that raises the dot up over that FSP a bit and then you can see everything and the FSP is in the very bottom part of the tube but is still very usuable if your battery runs out.
I've been happy with my cut down carry handle sight. It's UTG brand and I know they usually are known for paintball stuff, but this is aluminum just like the normal carry handles. The one I have is just as if you were to cut a carry handle off right in front of the sight part so the rest of the rail is free for whatever else you want.
Co-witnessing isn't hard or confusing at all. Most BUIS are set up to be seen in the lower 1/3 part of the red dot optic "window". Really all you have to worry about is that on a DI gun, you don't mate up a BUIS meant for a piston AR (they are short) with a stupidly crazy tall mount for your red dot.
As said above, when you co-witness properly, with the same cheekweld, you have the same POI for either red dot or irons. Personally, how I set this is:
+ Decide at what range you want to have the red dot and BUIS to be equal (remember this will happen at only 2 points of the trajectory)
+ Shut off red dot
+ Zero with iron sights
+ With same check weld, move elev/wind knobs on red dot until the dot either sits on top of the front sight post or is bisected horizontally by it (depending on your hold of choice)
+ Shoot a group with only red dot and confirm you have the zero you want...adjust as necessary
Don't know if that's the official way but it is the fastest and easiest way I've found
try the LMT http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-Tactical-Rear-Sight-p/lmt%20rear%20sight%20l8a.htm
can be had on ebay for around 50$ and unlike the utg and gmg knockoffs, alot more solid.
This is my preferred buis for red-dots.
My couple of cents.
The BUIS are something that came around with the prevalence of "optics" being used on main infantry rifles.
According to some sources, most of the US forces working with M4s or M16s use an optic, with backup irons,
for the reasons mentioned above. Faster up close target acquisition, and greater field of view is permitted
with a scout scope dot optic as opposed to a traditional scope. Batteries fail, and scopes get knocked, hence
the backups.
However, I've never had a traditional crosshairs scope fail other than one factory defective one which was immediately
warrantied and shipped their dime. I don't think a rifle with a traditional scope requires backup irons, both because
a traditional scope has less failure than electronics, and because the fast target acquisition of a go-fast tactical rifle
is not the primary role of a battle rifle (as opposed to an assault rifle.)
My rifles have scopes or irons. I have a red dot I dink around with, but, for a carbine, irons suffice. Although I don't plan
to clear buildings, I would think that, up close and fast, rough aiming with the sights would do for a close shot.
Thanks for all the replies. I have several good sights to look at. I just see too many options these days. It seems like everyone is making AR accessories. I don't want to pay a fortune for what is basically a hole to look through, but then again I don't want to go cheap and really end up with just a hole to look through and nothing else. The option to cowitness is something I want to keep but I prefer a set of irons that is as close as possible to GI in quality and specs.
Quote from: olefido on March 28, 2014, 08:41:45 PMI prefer a set of irons that is as close as possible to GI in quality and specs.
Using it like a rifle instead of like a carbine. Good on you.
In that case, a removable M4 style sight like you showed above is a good option. The only limitation is that with a rifle length sight radius, the 1/2' clicks and ballistic drop compensator (BDC) won't match very well.
A2 sights are a cool and very effective system. They require a rifle length sight radius, and are set up on a battle sight zero of 25 and 300M. You zero the elevation using the front sight post, and the rear sight dialed all the way down. Properly zeroed, targets between 0-300M are engaged on the 300M setting (the ballistic trajectory of 5.56 is nearly flat here). Beyond 300, you dial the BDC drum to 400M, 500M- all the way out to 800M. But that only works for fixed carry handles.
M4 sights are very similar. All removable carry handle sights (including the link you posted above) are M4 style. But M4 sights are based on the much shorter carbine length sight radius. On a carbine sight radius, clicks are 1/2 moa, and the BDC drum works from 0-600M. But the lead screws are different than on the A2 system (this is a physical mechanical limitation- there isn't enough room in a removable sight for a longer lead screw)....
As a result, if you take one of these removable sights and put it on a rifle with a rifle length sight radius, the clicks will be smaller than 1/2moa. The BDC settings will also be off- and be further off the further the target is. (I can explain all of this with trig if you like...)
As a result, you will have a nice little rear sight with nice click adjustments for elev/wind. But they will not be 1/2moa (if you tell me how long your sight radius is, I can tell you how much each click will adjust your POI). So you will have to learn how many clicks there are on your rifle between 300M and 400M, and 400M to 500M, etc.
If you're good with that limitation, I think you're good to go with a removable rear iron sight. If you need it explained further, just say.
Quote from: Slow2Speak on March 28, 2014, 10:41:02 AM
Unbridled Liberty was making 500 yard hits on a d target at atterbury with an Eotech red dot no cowitness I aint sayin it aint a good thing I want to learn more about it for when I come across it on the line
S2S: I had (and still have) Magpul flip-ups on that rifle. They co-witness with the EOTech, but I had them folded down at Atterbury. I went back and forth between them at 300 meters last year at Crittenden, just to prove to myself that I could use either effectively at that distance.
UL
Quote from: MostlyHarmless on March 28, 2014, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: olefido on March 28, 2014, 08:41:45 PMI prefer a set of irons that is as close as possible to GI in quality and specs.
Using it like a rifle instead of like a carbine. Good on you.
In that case, a removable M4 style sight like you showed above is a good option. The only limitation is that with a rifle length sight radius, the 1/2' clicks and ballistic drop compensator (BDC) won't match very well.
A2 sights are a cool and very effective system. They require a rifle length sight radius, and are set up on a battle sight zero of 25 and 300M. You zero the elevation using the front sight post, and the rear sight dialed all the way down. Properly zeroed, targets between 0-300M are engaged on the 300M setting (the ballistic trajectory of 5.56 is nearly flat here). Beyond 300, you dial the BDC drum to 400M, 500M- all the way out to 800M. But that only works for fixed carry handles.
M4 sights are very similar. All removable carry handle sights (including the link you posted above) are M4 style. But M4 sights are based on the much shorter carbine length sight radius. On a carbine sight radius, clicks are 1/2 moa, and the BDC drum works from 0-600M. But the lead screws are different than on the A2 system (this is a physical mechanical limitation- there isn't enough room in a removable sight for a longer lead screw)....
As a result, if you take one of these removable sights and put it on a rifle with a rifle length sight radius, the clicks will be smaller than 1/2moa. The BDC settings will also be off- and be further off the further the target is. (I can explain all of this with trig if you like...)
As a result, you will have a nice little rear sight with nice click adjustments for elev/wind. But they will not be 1/2moa (if you tell me how long your sight radius is, I can tell you how much each click will adjust your POI). So you will have to learn how many clicks there are on your rifle between 300M and 400M, and 400M to 500M, etc.
If you're good with that limitation, I think you're good to go with a removable rear iron sight. If you need it explained further, just say.
As I said it is an AR15A4 upper so it is essentially a AR15A2 with a 20" bbl., standard fixed front sight, and a picatinny rail where the carrying handle would be. The lower came from a RRA M4 so I still have the collapsible stock. I normally keep it at full length except for transport. I am familiar with the A2 sights. I am definitely a nose to charging handle type. Four years of light infantry back in the late 80's and early 90's. I have not kept up however with all the M4/A4 variants, combinations, and accessories. So I am not sure which brands of detachable iron sights are closest to GI yet affordable although I have gotten several ideas from this thread.
based on the latest info from you I would strong suggest the LMT rear sight. If you watch the exchanged on your local boards and all the big ones you can get a complete front and rear for 100 bucks. Most people don't separate the sets to often. I have one on my kiss rifle and they are by far the best fixed sights out there. it's light and rugged and basically the exact same thing as your carry handle just chopped way down.
Olefido, Based on your initial posting (AR-15A4 rifle), I have to assume that your rifle has the "triangle" front sight assembly. If that is true, and you are not planning to put a scope or a dot, I would suggest that you use a "suitcase handle". AR-15A4s come with one, so you have to buy nothing. If a scope or dot is in your plans, the suitcase handle has shortcomings, in that case a separate rear sight is a good idea. Literally all suggestions in previous posts are good. Just remember, you get what you pay for.
aj
Noticed that there seemed to be some confusion as to what co-witnessing is. Found an excellent graphic to illustrate both standard co-witness, and lower 1/3 co-witness. Image courtesy of progunfighter.com:
(http://progunfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/side-by-side-co-witness-copy1.jpg)
As to what rear sight would I recommend, there's only three:
Standard carry handle rear sight. Actual military issue for the rifle you're building
MATEC BUIS. Actual military issue (M4)
KAC BUIS as close to mil-spec as you can get, without an NSN. Designed for M4 rifle.
Since your rifle is a full length, and not an M4, I'd really only recommend the standard carry handle sight. To the best of my knowledge and research, all the fold-downs, pop-ups or other BUIS available are designed for the M4 sight radius. The carry handle sight is graduated to 800m; all BUIS that I have seen are limited to 600m.
NOTE: there are M4 carry handles, and A3/4 carry handles. The M4 version is graduated to 600m, (6/3) and the A3/4 version is graduated to 800m (8/3).
It is not cheap, but I have a C-more railway on my Rock River and it is a single unit that contains both a red dot and an A-2 rear that co-witnesses excellently on a standard AR front sight post. I bought mine from Dillon but you may shop around a bit and find it cheaper.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24901/catid/28/C_More_Systems_Aluminum___quot_Tactical_Sight_quot_
Quote from: airplanejoe on March 30, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
Olefido, Based on your initial posting (AR-15A4 rifle), I have to assume that your rifle has the "triangle" front sight assembly. If that is true, and you are not planning to put a scope or a dot, I would suggest that you use a "suitcase handle". AR-15A4s come with one, so you have to buy nothing. If a scope or dot is in your plans, the suitcase handle has shortcomings, in that case a separate rear sight is a good idea. Literally all suggestions in previous posts are good. Just remember, you get what you pay for.
aj
Got the upper from a friend with no carrying handle assembly. I am not planning on adding a red dot at this time although I would like to keep that option open. I am just looking for the sight part of the carrying handle to keep that option open and I want it to be as close to GI as possible in sight height, click adjustments, tolerances, and ruggedness.
Rock River has something that maybe looks like what you might want, but maybe more expensive than you want:
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=320
One of our attendees bought a carry handle with an A2 sight on ebay and just dremeled off the handle part. Looked like it worked fine for him
Olefido,, Browsing through the latest Cheaper than Dirt catalog, I found what I believe you're looking for. manufactured by UTG, catalog #ARR-140, price 29.97. www.cheaperthandirt.com. Happy hunting!!
aj
Cheap and rock solid would be the Troy fixed rear sight. It only lacks adjust-ability but is in your price range: http://www.amazon.com/Troy-Industries-Fixed-Battle-Sight/dp/B002I9TW00/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1396507768&sr=1-2&keywords=daniel+defense+rear+sight
If you want the A2 style with both Windage and elevation adjustment then the LMT is the way to go. If you are OK with elevation adjustment on the front sight post and Windage at the rear then the Daniels Defense A1.5 is the way to go. New the LMT is in the 100$ to 125$ range. The Daniels Defense is in the 65$ range. I have the DD A1.5, I added a DPMS Rapidex Knob for the Windage adjustment. Also added that Knob to my tech sights too.
I bought a demilled, mil-surplus carry handle off of this guy on gunbroker-
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=407477015 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=407477015)
I finished the chopping on both the top and bottom, gave it a good scrubbing with acetone, and painted it and it's good to go.
Greg
^^ that's the ticket.