So last year, I shot rifleman five times in one day with my 10/22. I have seriously considered taking an orange hat if I can do the same thing with centerfire. This year, I am going to hand over the 10/22 to my wife (now that I have most of the bugs worked out ;) , and I am going to shoot with my AR-15.
I have a 16" and a 20" AR15 with 1:7 twist. I have about 500 rounds of Wolf gold 55gr (the brass cased/copper jacketed stuff), and about 300 rounds of PMC bronze(55gr).. and about 500 other rounds of different brands.
My questions:
1) at 25 yards, does 55gr vs. 62gr ammo make a significant difference? Would I be better off acquiring 62gr (or heavier) ammo?
2) of the two brands of ammo that I already have, should I use the Wolf or the PMC bronze? Any idea how this stuff shoots? I am reluctant to shoot any of it until I am at an Appleseed. I want to use the same ammo for consistency, and I have barely enough of the PMC (for example) to make it through a 'seed.
3) I am going to scope whichever rifle I use. If iron sights, I would obviously choose the 20". With a scope, is there any reason not to choose the 16"?
4) will a free float hand guard on either one significantly increase accuracy at 25 yards?
Don't get hung up on the ammo or the equipment, it is the nut behind the but that is the Rifleman. To be honest it won't really matter just pick something that shoots decent in your rifle, have enough of to complete the task at hand and give it a go. I've seen lots of Rifleman scores with plain old Tula, Wolf XM193 and the green tip 855. It will all work just fine. Remember we are just trying to shoot 4 moa not be snipers. It sounds like the ammo you have will work well in a 1-7 or a 1-9 twist barrel just fine.
1. Not usually much just a few moa.
2. See above.
3. No reason to me.
4. Not in my experience.
1) No
2) I've never shot Wolf brass. I might be given to guess that it might be less consistent than PMC- but the short distance will minimize these effects
3) use whichever one you shoot most comfortably. Personally I'd go with the 20", assuming it has a rifle length handguard. I like having a lot of real estate for my support hand. If the 16" also has a full rifle length handguard, I would have no preference between the two. If the 16" has a carbine length handguard, I'd leave it at home.
4) Not enough to change your score
Good luck, have fun, and bring home that orange hat.
This is just off the top of my head:
Try zeroing both with whatever brand of ammo suits you. Do a box drill with them and find out which one has the most consistent and expected sight adjustments. Even different brands of sights that look the same as GI sights may have different sight adjustment increments. If there is no difference, go with the one you feel most comfortable with. Otherwise, what Muscat says stands.
16" vs 20". With a scope, the main difference will be muzzle blast and muzzle velocity. 16" is a great carbine size, especially with a lightweight barrel. 20" makes a nice shooter at CMP and NRA service rifle competitions if you are inclined to try that out. Buy whichever you like.
Shoot a bunch of AQTs with all the rifles and interchange the ammo. We are always talking rack grade rifle and rack grade ammunition. You can prove the concept works.
If you do KDs and want accurate scores you'll want to use the heavier bullets. At 25 yards I cannot imagine there'd be a difference. Shooting .223 for two days sounds pricey to me. (:
In the current ammunition availability climate I would shoot what I had. So in your case that is 55's. 55's can shoot accurately out of 1-7 barrels and they can certainly make 15m and KD riflemen.
A number of highpower shooters use 52gr bullets for their 100 yard match ammo. A number also use 55's. While they are handloading their ammo, there is no reason that commercial 55gr cannot produce rifleman scores. The highpower shooter's goal is 1.5moa or less. Four moa should not be a problem.
If you have the chance take your AR's and fire some 5 round groups with each at 25 yards. See how they do with the ammo you have available.
But the most important advice that I can offer is that if you can shoot a rifleman's score with a 22 there is no reason to wait to take an Orange Hat.
At one of the first discussions on KD, Fred asked a group of us how we would pick a rifleman to shoot KD. My answer then (July 2010) and now Jan 2014, is that I would look for a 25m rifleman with some centerfire experience. That experience could be hunting, shooting 100 yards, or just about anything else. I have proven to myself and to others that if you can shoot a rifleman's score at 25m, you can do it at distance as well. Just pay attention to what you are doing, attention to detail.
As to the rest of the questions:
1. Use what you have.
2. The Wolf should be fine but a few 5 round groups of each will tell alot. Do it prone with sling.
3. Choose the one you shoot best. Most of my shooting of 20" rifles is A1's and A2's with irons. But I don't feel undergunned with a scoped 16" carbine.
4. A free float guard might help a little in group size (and this is true whether your range is 25m or 400 yards). But I would run what I brung.
My suggestion?
Become an IIT now, then work on your goal.
You've shot Rifleman with a 22 five times in one day. I'd say that demonstrates your ability. Now, just fine tune it, and take it to the next level.
And, if you do become an IIT now, I can tell you we have a new postal match program. That will allow you to work on your scores, and center fire.
In other words, "come on in, the water's fine".
there should honestly be no difference between 22 and centerfire. all the fundamentals are the same. It sounds like you have a good concept of those.
The last KD event I shot. the first AQT I shot 39 out of 40 with 62 gr. wanted to see the difference so the next one I shot with 55 gr. made no other adjustments and with it using the same dope for my 62's I shot 37 out of 40. this was full distance out to 400. do your part and you should be perfectly fine.
Hi rdhood ,
FIRST: Take the orange hat! You have a debt to pay forward. There are too many out there that have lost the marksmanship component of our unique American Heritage. We need you to help them reclaim their heritage. Step up.
Now for your questions, as best as I can answer them.
1) at 25 yards, does 55gr vs. 62gr ammo make a significant difference? Would I be better off acquiring 62gr (or heavier) ammo?
My answer: No, there typically is not a significant difference between 55gr vs. 62gr ammo. The ballistic coefficient are very similar. Moreover, at the distance you are shooting (i.e., 25 meters) the bullet has not yet stabilized (according to the Marine Corps). That is why the USMC uses a 36/300 battle sight zero. I personally use either Lake City 55gr M193 or PMC X-TAC 55gr XM193.
You really need to experiment and find out what your rifle likes to eat (what Olefido said).
2) of the 2 brands of ammo that I already have, should I use the Wolf or the PMC bronze? Any idea how this stuff shoots? I am reluctant to shoot any of it until I am at an Appleseed. I want to use the same ammo for consistency, and I have barely enough of the PMC (for example) to make it through a 'seed.
My answer: I personally use either Lake City 55gr M193 or PMC X-TAC 55gr XM193. Both of these are available in 5.56mm brass. I can not comment on the performance of Wolf ammo for an AR-15.I believe the Wolf Gold is also 5.56x45mm M193 in Brass, but I have not used it yet. The Wolf Performace is .223 and steel jacketed, so I don't use it at all.
3) I am going to scope whichever rifle I use. If iron sights, I would obviously choose the 20". With a scope, is there any reason not to choose the 16"?
My answer: I believe weight is the real issue. I have 2 ARs, one with a 16" ER Shaw pencil barrel, the other with a 20" Rock Creek bull barrel. One I can carry all day and hunt with, and the other I hope I never have to carry all day. Both shoot equally well (1 MOA), but the 16" pencil barrel heats up much faster than the 20".
In the end, it really depends on your intended use (what Caliper said).
4) will a free float hand guard on either one significantly increase accuracy at 25 yards?
My answer: Yes and no. There is no simple answer here.
Once again, according to the Marine Corps at the distance you are shooting (25 meters) the bullet has not yet stabilized. So will it really significantly increase accuracy of you un-stabilized bullet? No. Having written, let's get to the issue of free-floating hand guards.
The reason we free float barrels and put free floating forestocks on rifles in the first place is to reduce extrinsic forces on the barrel which would limit barrel harmonics, and adversely effect accuracy. Once you attach a sling to a non-free floated barrel, you introduce lateral extrinsic forces to the barrel. Is it an issue? It depends on the shooter.
An experienced Rifleman who does the same thing the same way each time with the same amount of tension on his/her sling will introduce the same amount of extrinsic force to the barrel, which will be compensated for when you zero your rifle. So in the end, it depends on the consistency of the Rifleman behind the trigger.
I hope these answers help, good luck, and I want to see your picture when you take the orange hat.
Shoot the cheapest ammo you can find! :---
I'm at work so I can't find the trajectory tables for 55 vs 62, but the difference is only slight. Like less than one MOA. Experience has shown this as well. You will have to re-zero when switching between different weights.
On the free-float hand guard issue (4), I have a mid-length (16") Bravo Company upper with a Magpul MOE (non-free float) handguard which does shift zero (about 1 moa) under sling tension, but my sling is very tight. This setup worked for me at a KD event. YMMV.
I have a 16 and a 20" both 1:7 55's are good 75's are great.
I would scope the 16 and keep Iron sights for the 20 due to the distace between the sights helping optic veiw. ..:..
Rdhood, don't try to get too picky (don't fuzz the shot). There are some excellent posts in reply to your inquiry. Here are my 2 cents:
1. The difference is negligible.
2. At 25 yds you'll notice no difference. Keep in mind that at longer ranges different ammo brands will print different. That doesn't mean one is better than the other . Just that, say at 100 yds, your zero with Wolf will be slightly different than your zero with PMC (using same bullet weight). But they can both be zeroed. At longer ranges things change, the better rounds will print better. Like a previous post reads, for 25 yds buy the cheapest you can find.
3. No, with a scope sight radius is a non- issue.
4. Probably not, unless you tighten your sling to tourniquet specs. The word is snug.
aj
Quote from: grunt soldier on January 09, 2014, 10:28:06 PM
there should honestly be no difference between 22 and centerfire. all the fundamentals are the same.
I'll share my experience here, as at my last Rifleman Bootcamp I shot a 10/22 on the first day, and switched to my 20" AR-15 (iron sights on both) from the 2nd day forward. Similarly to you, I'd shot Rifleman score many times with the rimfire rifle (both scoped and iron sights), and wanted to transition to centerfire.
Personally I was shooting 77gr SMK bullets for the KD portion, and 55 gr Federal M193 for the 25m portion, but I would absolutely agree that the bullet weight won't make any difference at 25m. Your POI might change a little if you were to swap ammo around, but even that won't amount to much at 25m. In fact even at full distance the differences in bullet weight won't really amount to much unless it's windy. The reason the heavy bullets are commonly used by High Power shooters is to minimize effects of wind. They are marginally more accurate as well perhaps, but not close to the point where it will amount to much on an AQT.
The biggest difference I noticed when switching to centerfire was adapting my cadence to the recoil. When shooting the 22, I had a nice cadence going. Switching to the AR-15, at first I had a tendency to Fire - Recoil - Breath - Fire, which was too slow. I was, in essence, waiting for the recoil to settle down, then breathe, then fire. I had to adjust that to take a breath while the rifle was recoiling, which meant getting used to a slightly different sight movement between shots.
Ultimately it took one AQT for me to adjust to the AR-15, and I shot a Rifleman score on my second AQT. The rifle was a Rock River 20" AR-15, and ammo was Federal M193, with iron sights. I don't imagine you'll have any problem with either AR-15 you've mentioned, though personally I think there is great value in learning to use the AR-15 iron sights. I haven't shot with a scope in ages, once I learned to use the iron sights.
Safe shooting,
Agrivere