We have some EXTREME weather conditions moving into the Country; weather not seen in years for many parts. for those able to get out in the back yard and shoot, is anyone (else) even toying with the idea of checking out how equipment runs in extreme cold temps......?
Should you decide to try it out; be aware that frost nip / frost bite affect a person for the rest of their lives. Think long and hard before you venture outside in bad weather conditions!
Well, as a resident of northern New England, and having been a member of a Mountain Infantry National Guard unit, I can tell you your equipment should work in the cold and the winter. You being cold will affect your scores. You should learn how to do it.
You also should be very careful out there, as cold weather injuries are no joke, and some can pretty much be permanent.
Train yourself, get trained. If nothing else, hook up with a friend that has gotten trained. And, don't forget winter first aid training.
I was also in a mountain Infantry unit and the training is pretty awesome. I think I'll probably take a break tomorrow in between building snow forts and shoot a few AQT's to keep up on my cold weather skills. and you are correct frost bite is no joke. my toes have never been the same since.
what is appropriate winter -40 F clothing I haven't got a clue I was bundled up at +30F
maybe I have poor thermal choices
A couple of things to remember, if you're spending serious time in extreme cold. It also applies to shorter amounts of time, and warmer temperatures, just is less critical.
First, "Cotton Kills". It doesn't insulate well, and doesn't work well. It can contribute to many cold weather problems.
Second, remember COLD. There are variations on this, so it isn't what's always used.
Clean
Open
Layers
Dry
Keep your clothing clean. Dirty clothes don't insulate well. Keep it open, enough to not be tight, nor to make you overheat. Overheating causes sweat, which is moisture, and makes you cold later. Layers can be peeled on and off as needed, or opened incrementally. This lets you regulate how much protection you need. Keep it dry is obvious. Water is a poor insulator, and makes you cold.
You don't want to be real warm, just "not cold". Sounds dumb, but think about it. If you're comfortable, then you're OK.
And, grunt soldier, I was in 3/172 Infantry's support company, the battalion considered us part of it. Our Bn HQ is right nect door to the Army's Mountain Warfare School, at Jericho, VT. If you ever get a chance to come up for an Appleseed there, please do. There's a 600 yard KD range we use.
K98Al, SKSmarksman and myself went out this afternoon and found out we are still quarter mile effective in the teens with gusts over 20 mph. :)
When the temperature falls to below zero, it is best to give every action a lot of extra thought. Man and machines have a very difficult time functioning at those temperatures. And if the wind is blowing it is far more dangerous. GO SLOW!!!!!
It is always best to dress in layers and to remove or add layers of clothing as required maintain comfort. It is important to keep yourself DRY!!! If you are not dry you may die from hypothermia at air temperatures FAR , FAR ABOVE FREEZING!!!!!
When temperatures fall far below zero, EVERYTHING changes. At -30 degrees, if you are overdressed, you will sweat. Perspiration will freeze as ice in your clothing and can freeze as ice on your skin even under your clothing. They used to say that at -30 degrees, with a 30-mph wind, exposed flesh freezes in 30 seconds. So if you were going 30 mph, on a snowmobile, at -30 degrees, your face would freeze in 30 seconds.
You cover everything up, from nose to toes! Dress in maybe four or five layers. Keep yourself cool. Remove layers before you start to be active and replace layers when you stop activities. Do not wear cotton. Start with a Polypro type underwear layer, add a couple wool or fleece layers inside and then covered by a windproof outer layer. Arctic Carhartt two piece suits and Sorel Boots with an extra felt insole works well. Add a full face mask, eye protection, a couple hat layers, several sock layers, light gloves, heavy gloves, a mitten system and you are good to go!!!
You will still have to manage a heavy frost build up from your breathing if you are working hard like shoveling, splitting wood, or snowshoeing.
Have enough of the right clothing available at all times. Keep dry. Match the layers of clothing to the current level of your activity. Watch for signs of frost burn on yourself and others. Remember eye protection to prevent frost burn or snow blindness. You have to think carefully at all times. Even if you and the kids are just driving to the store.
This last Thursday night it was -12 degrees F, with a 10 to 25 mph wind. They said on the radio that it was -38 degree F with the wind-chill factor. Friday night was even colder!!!!
Now the question is:
"I sighted my 30/06 in at last summers Appleseed event (on a hot sunny 80 degree July day) with a 100 yard zero. When I shoot it again at -20 degrees, without sight adjustments, where should the bullet impact on the 100 yard target"?
Quote from: Smurf on January 06, 2014, 12:42:43 AM
Now the question is:
"I sighted my 30/06 in at last summers Appleseed event (on a hot sunny 80 degree July day) with a 100 yard zero. When I shoot it again at -20 degrees, without sight adjustments, where should the bullet impact on the 100 yard target"?
Assuming that all of the other variables remain constant, the POI would be about 5 MOA low, right?
Quote from: Nickle on January 05, 2014, 07:35:55 PM
Well, as a resident of northern New England, and having been a member of a Mountain Infantry National Guard unit, I can tell you your equipment should work in the cold and the winter. You being cold will affect your scores. You should learn how to do it.
You also should be very careful out there, as cold weather injuries are no joke, and some can pretty much be permanent.
Train yourself, get trained. If nothing else, hook up with a friend that has gotten trained. And, don't forget winter first aid training.
Well, since I am just getting over a viral infection and I was assigned to a light infantry unit in HAWAII way back when, I will probably be waiting for warmer weather. Not too much warmer, but warmer.
Quote from: Nickle on January 05, 2014, 10:49:08 PM
And, grunt soldier, I was in 3/172 Infantry's support company, the battalion considered us part of it. Our Bn HQ is right nect door to the Army's Mountain Warfare School, at Jericho, VT. If you ever get a chance to come up for an Appleseed there, please do. There's a 600 yard KD range we use.
If I can make it sir I will be there for sure.
leave the stainless barrels at home for sub-zero, life can be significantly reduced
Quote from: GoldFish on January 06, 2014, 11:31:14 AM
Quote from: Smurf on January 06, 2014, 12:42:43 AM
Now the question is:
"I sighted my 30/06 in at last summers Appleseed event (on a hot sunny 80 degree July day) with a 100 yard zero. When I shoot it again at -20 degrees, without sight adjustments, where should the bullet impact on the 100 yard target"?
Assuming that all of the other variables remain constant, the POI would be about 5 MOA low, right?
YES!!!!! OUTSTANDING!!!!! THANK YOU!!!! ^:)^
100 degrees of downward temperature change - 1 MOA change per unit of 20 degrees = POI of 5 MOA LOW
Here's a link to a thread put together with some tips and tricks especially pertaining to Appleseed.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=16472.0
Follow the advice and tips laid out here and elsewhere.
But most importantly, get out there and learn your limits, what works and what doesn't and how to prepare better next time.
I was granted the luxury of changing a tire last night - The windchill was 30-50 below here - I had also neglect to put my hat and gloves back into my car. Obviously not an ideal situation. But, I'm from MN - I can hack it!
5 minutes at a time!
With 10-15 minutes to warm up between each attack...
(I should note that 5 minutes handling frozen steel was probably too long, but my ffinggers arew still wroking enought to stytpe htis... So, I'm OK.)
I'm in MN and have spent a lot of time snowmobiling, ice fishing, winter camping, trapping and predator hunting in MN and Ontario in subzero, often very much subzero weather.
I will say hands down, the best parka out there for extreme cold is the Swedish military surplus M90. It's heavy and bulky but will keep you toasty warm in -40. Their ECW pants are quite good also. Aside from that, I go old school and wear cotton skivvies, milsurp wool pants and a high loft milsurp wool sweater. My whole outfit costs under $100 (minus boots, gloves and hat) and is as warm as the fanciest cold weather gear money can buy, just heavier. For subzero, it's hard to beat fur on your head and hands. Beaver is best, muskrat, raccoon, coyote or fox are quite good, rabbit will do but won't hold up to wet conditions very well. It matts when it gets wet and loses it's insulating ability. For boots, US "mickeys" are great for sedentary activity but I find them extremely clumsy and tiring. I wear Baffin brand Trappers. They're a rubber/felt pack boot with some space age reflective material in them. Under $70. I add an additional felt insole (Daka brand) for extra cushion and insulation. They are quite warm and light for their warmth. They are amazingly durable, the rubber doesn't split or crack even after years of hard use.
For your rifles, LPS grade 1 or 2 is the only conventional lubes I've seen that won't gum up at -40. Liquid wrench or Kroil penetrating oil are good down to -30 or so. Some of the synthetics are supposed to be good even colder, but I don't like graphite, mica or Teflon in my guns. Stay safe and happy shooting!
I was out all morning testing my skills. Shot 2 aqt's and didn't fare well at all. The gusting wind blowing snow directly in my eyes was horrible. My best was a 190. However I spent the rest of the day building snow forts and teaching the little one about cold weather survival. So all in all it was a great day!
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/gruntsoldier/3F6921EF-67DD-4FA0-A568-FB5BC00B8202_zpsrvwdsbez.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/gruntsoldier/media/3F6921EF-67DD-4FA0-A568-FB5BC00B8202_zpsrvwdsbez.jpg.html)
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/gruntsoldier/AAFAB416-22BC-47E3-B95F-419C2492FDBC_zpsphzah5ke.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/gruntsoldier/media/AAFAB416-22BC-47E3-B95F-419C2492FDBC_zpsphzah5ke.jpg.html)
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/gruntsoldier/8F0D8645-DC0D-4F1A-A593-6DCE5BECC59D_zpsxdnfecec.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/gruntsoldier/media/8F0D8645-DC0D-4F1A-A593-6DCE5BECC59D_zpsxdnfecec.jpg.html)
Awww! ;) That's one of the (few) things I miss about snow - forts and tunnels. The drifts were so much more awesome when I was half as tall!
Quote from: Polaris on January 07, 2014, 10:46:29 PM
I'm in MN and have spent a lot of time snowmobiling, ice fishing, winter camping, trapping and predator hunting in MN and Ontario in subzero, often very much subzero weather.
I will say hands down, the best parka out there for extreme cold is the Swedish military surplus M90. It's heavy and bulky but will keep you toasty warm in -40. Their ECW pants are quite good also. Aside from that, I go old school and wear cotton skivvies, milsurp wool pants and a high loft milsurp wool sweater. My whole outfit costs under $100 (minus boots, gloves and hat) and is as warm as the fanciest cold weather gear money can buy, just heavier. For subzero, it's hard to beat fur on your head and hands. Beaver is best, muskrat, raccoon, coyote or fox are quite good, rabbit will do but won't hold up to wet conditions very well. It matts when it gets wet and loses it's insulating ability. For boots, US "mickeys" are great for sedentary activity but I find them extremely clumsy and tiring. I wear Baffin brand Trappers. They're a rubber/felt pack boot with some space age reflective material in them. Under $70. I add an additional felt insole (Daka brand) for extra cushion and insulation. They are quite warm and light for their warmth. They are amazingly durable, the rubber doesn't split or crack even after years of hard use.
For your rifles, LPS grade 1 or 2 is the only conventional lubes I've seen that won't gum up at -40. Liquid wrench or Kroil penetrating oil are good down to -30 or so. Some of the synthetics are supposed to be good even colder, but I don't like graphite, mica or Teflon in my guns. Stay safe and happy shooting!
great info just what i've been looking for. I wonder how does your gear compare with this http://militarythermals.com/
I haven't put money down on thermals yet but next year I want my winterseed patch.
I would love to be out in -30 and be comfy.
Skip the latest and greatest. Buy wool. It's breathable, insulates while wet, and is naturally antimicrobial. I hVe used the best the military has to offer and would take good wool any day of the week. Especially as a base layer. You can get good socks from rural king for 20'bucks. 6 pair from rural king. Decent base layers from SAMs club called omni wool for super cheap. It's ny fully wool but a nice blend for 15 bucks.
Keep it layered. Watch the sweat. You will be good to go.
The newer high tech stuff is good, real good. I've used, and was issued it. It isn't cheap, in fact it can get quite pricey.
That said, ask yourself if you really need stuff that good. I'll wager you really don't.
Like grunt soldier said, use wool. Reasonably priced, and it works. The US military used largely wool when I entered service in 1972, and for many years after. It works, I've used it. Sometimes it's better than the newer stuff.
If you want some of the newer stuff, start with the outer layer. Gore-tex parka and pants seem to make a major difference.
Some of us are at least mildly allergic to wool, and get the itchy-scratchies if we wear it all day in body contact. Huzzah for modern polymers!
That's why I wear the old cotton herringbones as an underlayer. polypropylene is good too, but it's a bit expensive and doesn't seem to work any better than the old cotton stuff. The purpose of the underlayer is to breath, wick moisture away from your skin, and keep the wool from touching your skin. Cotton works well for that, so long as you have wool and a windstopper over the top. Silk is also amazingly good. Ounce for ounce it insulates better than any fabric. It's also really expensive. All I own I got for Christmas on various years, but it's really good.