...and that is, Step 5 of the six steps to making the shot: "Squeeze" the trigger.
Last April I went to the Frontsight firearms training center in Pahrump, NV. Mention was made several times about squeezing vs pressing the trigger. I found that if someone tells me to squeeze something, my entire hand tends to tense up in a squeezing motion. My instructor informed me that this is why they say to "press" the trigger rather than "squeeze" it. I truly believe that this is part of what caused me to miss so many shots in my first Appleseed's. I was squeezing rather than pressing, thereby ruining my NPOA. Perhaps I'm in the minority on this, but I'm a true believer in NPOA now, and I'd sure like to see as many folks make Rifleman as possible! If all it took was one little thing like this to help folks make the shot, wouldn't it be worth it?
This subject has been beat up several years ago. I agree and that's why I put Press into the Pistolseed POI. WE used that term in the army too. You press a ball point pin to operate the mechanism. End of short rant.
only one?
I figure that we are pushing by pressing on the trigger, and using the term squeeze because it has always been so, and easy to remember with five.
All those muscles work, the press or squeeze goes all the way to the elbow, the most critical are in the finger on the trigger and hopefully away from the rifle elsewhere, luckily the other fingers are occupied with a firm handshake grip... or they would want to quiver in sympathy to the finger moving.
Thank you for giving me a place to think about improving Appleseed, since I woke in the night for a glass of water, I can go back to bed having helped the program until the weekend. if we used the thumb opposite the trigger finger and squeezed the rifle what would change.... something to dream about.
At my last shoot one of the guys had a problem dragging wood with a thumbhole stock. We happened to talk to a guy at the range that used to be a competitive shooter and he mentioned some snipers that don't wrap their thumb around the stock, but lay it on the side. The guy with the thumbhole stock tried it and improved greatly. Just a thought that this might improve your trigger control, since if you thumb isn't wrapped around the stock you can't really squeeze with your whole hand. Might be worth a shot. (pun intended)
How much history did you hear at Frontsight?
I like suggestions of how to improve the program and make us better but, believe it or not, we're not even a shooting program. We could take this from Frontsight, that from Thunder Ranch, those from NRA....but we dont need to. Our stuff is effective.
For every person that thinks "press" works better there's a guy like me who relates pressing something to pushing away from the body instead of moving something closer. In my head it doesn't make a lot of sense. There are many, many, many examples of this in our instructions but the beauty of it is our instructions are "good enough" (that is, within 4 MOA) so we can "press" on with bigger things. Things like squuezing more blood out of each turnip resulting in more butts on the line.
I'm a nitpicker at heart. But in this case, is this nit really worth picking? While you proceed to:
:DH:
I'm going to
:pop:
2 clicks low
Quote from: Ironbar on November 20, 2013, 01:51:51 AM
...and that is, Step 5 of the six steps to making the shot: "Squeeze" the trigger.
Last April I went to the Frontsight firearms training center in Pahrump, NV. Mention was made several times about squeezing vs pressing the trigger. I found that if someone tells me to squeeze something, my entire hand tends to tense up in a squeezing motion. My instructor informed me that this is why they say to "press" the trigger rather than "squeeze" it. I truly believe that this is part of what caused me to miss so many shots in my first Appleseed's. I was squeezing rather than pressing, thereby ruining my NPOA. Perhaps I'm in the minority on this, but I'm a true believer in NPOA now, and I'd sure like to see as many folks make Rifleman as possible! If all it took was one little thing like this to help folks make the shot, wouldn't it be worth it?
Well, yes. Don't "milk the stock" (or pistol grip)!
Interesting observation about thumb position --- good point for individual coaching
fisherdawg
Wow, if that's all then we must be doing a fairly good job. Thanks for the candid feedback.
As I learned from my pistol coaches (both Distinguished competitors), one thinks of gradually increasing pressure on the trigger until the rifle fires. I'll agree that "pressing" sounds better than "squeezing", but both are better than "pulling". At any rate, we do go into detail about what that "squeeze" means in terms of isolating the motion to the front joints of the index finger.
Quote from: Niskibum on November 20, 2013, 10:18:29 AM
At my last shoot one of the guys had a problem dragging wood with a thumbhole stock. We happened to talk to a guy at the range that used to be a competitive shooter and he mentioned some snipers that don't wrap their thumb around the stock, but lay it on the side. The guy with the thumbhole stock tried it and improved greatly. Just a thought that this might improve your trigger control, since if you thumb isn't wrapped around the stock you can't really squeeze with your whole hand. Might be worth a shot. (pun intended)
I teach the very same technique for folks shooting ARs who are having the same problem. I've found that I can more effectively isolate and mitigate the sympathetic reflex of the thumb when it's alongside the receiver, whether it's an AR or other rifle, but particularly on the AR.
Quote from: slim on November 20, 2013, 11:14:00 AM
How much history did you hear at Frontsight?
I like suggestions of how to improve the program and make us better but, believe it or not, we're not even a shooting program. We could take this from Frontsight, that from Thunder Ranch, those from NRA....but we dont need to. Our stuff is effective.
For every person that thinks "press" works better there's a guy like me who relates pressing something to pushing away from the body instead of moving something closer. In my head it doesn't make a lot of sense. There are many, many, many examples of this in our instructions but the beauty of it is our instructions are "good enough" (that is, within 4 MOA) so we can "press" on with bigger things. Things like squuezing more blood out of each turnip resulting in more butts on the line.
I get that the shooting is the hook, but to say we're not a shooting program when that portion of the event outweighs the history portion by
at least 3:1, it comes across as a little...disingenuous. I agree with the OP that if we can standardize terms with what folks will hear in
nearly every other course they might take, it eliminates any possible confusion and allows them to focus on the skill we're trying to teach. I read "squeeze" but you know what? I still say "press". I even go so far as to expand to the point of telling the student that we're not "telling" the gun to go off, we're "asking" it to with slow, steadily increasing
pressure to the rear.
Let's face it: We don't award "Really good listener" patches, we award "Rifleman" patches.
Quote from: slim on November 20, 2013, 11:14:00 AM
How much history did you hear at Frontsight?
I like suggestions of how to improve the program and make us better but, believe it or not, we're not even a shooting program. We could take this from Frontsight, that from Thunder Ranch, those from NRA....but we dont need to. Our stuff is effective.
For every person that thinks "press" works better there's a guy like me who relates pressing something to pushing away from the body instead of moving something closer. In my head it doesn't make a lot of sense. There are many, many, many examples of this in our instructions but the beauty of it is our instructions are "good enough" (that is, within 4 MOA) so we can "press" on with bigger things. Things like squuezing more blood out of each turnip resulting in more butts on the line.
I agree with much of this sentiment. I'm sure this topic has been debated before and the big take-away is that different people interpret words differently. "Squeeze" might relate perfectly to one person while "press" may to another. I agree that "press" would be confusing to some as that connotes "pushing away," and we certainly don't want to tell them to "pull."
So how do we improvise, adapt and overcome? If a shooter is having a problem understanding what we are teaching, then we need to either be more specific in our descriptions and demonstrations (such as in the "pen clicking" or seated trigger control exercises) and/or we need to ask them what they think we mean by our words. Clearly, it would be very difficult to spot a shooter who is squeezing his grip while sending the shot, when he should already have a firm handshake grip. Perhaps a clarification in the POI that the grip pressure should not change while squeezing the trigger and that this action should be felt in the trigger finger only would be helpful, especially if we see horizontal stringing in the SOF. I also think that the exercise of having students squeeze the trigger hard in dry fire with safety on and seeing if they are getting muzzle movement is a good one (and it's the type of procedure that aligns well with the latest research on skill development).
Quote from: Niskibum on November 20, 2013, 10:18:29 AM
At my last shoot one of the guys had a problem dragging wood with a thumbhole stock. We happened to talk to a guy at the range that used to be a competitive shooter and he mentioned some snipers that don't wrap their thumb around the stock, but lay it on the side. The guy with the thumbhole stock tried it and improved greatly. Just a thought that this might improve your trigger control, since if you thumb isn't wrapped around the stock you can't really squeeze with your whole hand. Might be worth a shot. (pun intended)
This was my problem as well. When I had my thumb wrapped around the stock, I had a terrible problem with dragging wood. An instructor suggested that put my thumb on the side. No more dragging wood.
Quote from: Minutemom on November 20, 2013, 12:31:00 PM
Quote from: Niskibum on November 20, 2013, 10:18:29 AM
At my last shoot one of the guys had a problem dragging wood with a thumbhole stock. We happened to talk to a guy at the range that used to be a competitive shooter and he mentioned some snipers that don't wrap their thumb around the stock, but lay it on the side. The guy with the thumbhole stock tried it and improved greatly. Just a thought that this might improve your trigger control, since if you thumb isn't wrapped around the stock you can't really squeeze with your whole hand. Might be worth a shot. (pun intended)
This was my problem as well. When I had my thumb wrapped around the stock, I had a terrible problem with dragging wood. An instructor suggested that put my thumb on the side. No more dragging wood.
Yep, with students and myself, pull back firmly with the middle/ring/and index fingers on pistol grips, that isolates the trigger finger to SQUEEEEEEZ. :)...O.L.
We teach Traditional Combat Riflery. Our program is unique in both marksmanship and heritage, though other "schools" overlap.
"Squeeeeze" the trigger straight back has been the word used since day one to instruct the various fundamentals required to engage the bang switch.
There are plenty of vintage videos to prove it.
It is the pistol shooters/schools who seem to use press. So perhaps hawkeye was correct to include this in the pistolseed COF.
It is too easy to get caught up in words and splitting of hairs.
Another way explain "Squeeze the trigger," not " Squeeeeeeze the trigger," is to follow it with "steady even pressure to the rear."
I could get into a long rant on "dragging wood." But that can be saved for another time.
Quote from: Bluesteel on November 20, 2013, 11:42:30 AM
So how do we improvise, adapt and overcome? If a shooter is having a problem understanding what we are teaching, then we need to either be more specific in our descriptions and demonstrations (such as in the "pen clicking" or seated trigger control exercises) and/or we need to ask them what they think we mean by our words. Clearly, it would be very difficult to spot a shooter who is squeezing his grip while sending the shot, when he should already have a firm handshake grip. Perhaps a clarification in the POI that the grip pressure should not change while squeezing the trigger and that this action should be felt in the trigger finger only would be helpful, especially if we see horizontal stringing in the SOF. I also think that the exercise of having students squeeze the trigger hard in dry fire with safety on and seeing if they are getting muzzle movement is a good one (and it's the type of procedure that aligns well with the latest research on skill development).
You "improvise adapt and overcome" by learning all that you can about marksmanship instruction if you think it is important. You then apply those lessons to your instruction and your shooting. In the end it makes you a better instructor and shooter.
As for spotting the shooter squeezing the grip it is actually not that hard. Watch the muzzle. To best coach a shooter don't look at his trigger hand before you watch his muzzle. Don't talk about "Dragging Wood" until you are sure that it is a problem, determined by watching the muzzle and the target. Don't worry about dragging wood if the shooter has an unstable position. The building blocks are position, NPOA (including relaxation into the sling), breathing, and THEN trigger control.
If a shooter has small hands, thumb on top of the grip or to the side of the grip (particularly in prone) can be a big help. But remember position comes before, npoa comes before breathing, comes before trigger control. A good book discussing all of this is available from Jim Owens. It is called "Sight alignment, trigger control and the Big Lie." It is the first book that I ever read that talked about Natural Point of Aim. Another good book if you take the marksmanship side seriously is the Army Marksmanship Unit's "Guide to Service Rifle". After you've read those if you are interested in more, contact me and I will get you a reading list.
Quote from: jmdavis on November 20, 2013, 02:28:35 PM
Quote from: Bluesteel on November 20, 2013, 11:42:30 AM
So how do we improvise, adapt and overcome? If a shooter is having a problem understanding what we are teaching, then we need to either be more specific in our descriptions and demonstrations (such as in the "pen clicking" or seated trigger control exercises) and/or we need to ask them what they think we mean by our words. Clearly, it would be very difficult to spot a shooter who is squeezing his grip while sending the shot, when he should already have a firm handshake grip. Perhaps a clarification in the POI that the grip pressure should not change while squeezing the trigger and that this action should be felt in the trigger finger only would be helpful, especially if we see horizontal stringing in the SOF. I also think that the exercise of having students squeeze the trigger hard in dry fire with safety on and seeing if they are getting muzzle movement is a good one (and it's the type of procedure that aligns well with the latest research on skill development).
You "improvise adapt and overcome" by learning all that you can about marksmanship instruction if you think it is important. You then apply those lessons to your instruction and your shooting. In the end it makes you a better instructor and shooter.
As for spotting the shooter squeezing the grip it is actually not that hard. Watch the muzzle. To best coach a shooter don't look at his trigger hand before you watch his muzzle. Don't talk about "Dragging Wood" until you are sure that it is a problem, determined by watching the muzzle and the target. Don't worry about dragging wood if the shooter has an unstable position. The building blocks are position, NPOA (including relaxation into the sling), breathing, and THEN trigger control.
If a shooter has small hands, thumb on top of the grip or to the side of the grip (particularly in prone) can be a big help. But remember position comes before, npoa comes before breathing, comes before trigger control. A good book discussing all of this is available from Jim Owens. It is called "Sight alignment, trigger control and the Big Lie." It is the first book that I ever read that talked about Natural Point of Aim. Another good book if you take the marksmanship side seriously is the Army Marksmanship Unit's "Guide to Service Rifle". After you've read those if you are interested in more, contact me and I will get you a reading list.
Thanks for the tips, I'm already aware of Owens (have visited his website before but not yet ordered his CD's or booklets). Do you suggest any of his others beside "...The Big Lie?"
I had never owned a firearm until 2 years ago, and hadn't fired more than about 300-400 rounds total in my entire life before attending my 1st Appleseed, which was in Late June this year. Shot a rifleman score on my 1st AQT. I'm a guy with average physical coordination (actually my standing balance is probably below average due to some physical issues). So I took your point to heart
before I ever attended an Appleseed event and continue to do so. How so? I watched many videos from instructors (M1 Garand, USAR and USMC marksmanship teams) and competitive shooters before attending and since then have studied "Position Rifle Shooting" by Pullem and continued to watch every marksmanship video I can find. I've been reading the Instructor manual, dryfiring and experimenting with positions (and the effect of common shooter errors) almost every day since taking on the orange hat. So what I lack in experience, I've worked hard to make up with study and plan to continue.
As a newbie to AS, my main concern is this: If our goal is to produce a nation of riflemen (yes I realize that means much more than shooting a 210+ on an AQT), why isn't our success rate higher in producing riflemen? When we tell students that it takes most people 3 or more tries before shooting a rifleman score are we just being honest or are we establishing an expectation of failure for new students? That would be MY only complaint (so far), and I'm determined to play a role in increasing our success rate. BTW, I always suggest that shooters place the thumb on top or slightly toward the trigger hand rather than wrapping it around with conventional stocks (how much depending on their particular problems, hand size, finger length, etc).
Quote from: Ironbar on November 20, 2013, 01:51:51 AM
...and that is, Step 5 of the six steps to making the shot: "Squeeze" the trigger.
Mention was made several times about squeezing vs pressing the trigger. I found that if someone tells me to squeeze something, my entire hand tends to tense up in a squeezing motion. My instructor informed me that this is why they say to "press" the trigger rather than "squeeze" it. I truly believe that this is part of what caused me to miss so many shots in my first Appleseed's.
I think that's number 43 in the Appleseed book of excuses. %)
IMHO your problem is not Appleseeds use of the word "squeeze." The problem is that you're limp wristing" your grip. If you tense your entire hand when you squeeze your trigger enough to move your rifle than you're not using a "firm hand shake grip." When you shake a man's hand does he get a limp fish handed too him? With a firm hand shake grip there should be no more that you could squeeze the grip to cause any movement. Like when shaking a man's hand, you should not be trying to crush the others hand but you should have a strong enough grip on his hand that you could hand wrestle with him. How else could you "firmly pull the rifle into your shoulder?" Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 03:45:37 PM
Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
Uh-oh, I'll have to remember that when I move up to a "real" rifle, LOL. I like my teeth where they are.
Quote from: Bluesteel on November 20, 2013, 03:35:16 PM
Thanks for the tips, I'm already aware of Owens (have visited his website before but not yet ordered his CD's or booklets). Do you suggest any of his others beside "...The Big Lie?"
I had never owned a firearm until 2 years ago, and hadn't fired more than about 300-400 rounds total in my entire life before attending my 1st Appleseed, which was in Late June this year. Shot a rifleman score on my 1st AQT. I'm a guy with average physical coordination (actually my standing balance is probably below average due to some physical issues). So I took your point to heart before I ever attended an Appleseed event and continue to do so. How so? I watched many videos from instructors (M1 Garand, USAR and USMC marksmanship teams) and competitive shooters before attending and since then have studied "Position Rifle Shooting" by Pullem and continued to watch every marksmanship video I can find. I've been reading the Instructor manual, dryfiring and experimenting with positions (and the effect of common shooter errors) almost every day since taking on the orange hat. So what I lack in experience, I've worked hard to make up with study and plan to continue.
As a newbie to AS, my main concern is this: If our goal is to produce a nation of riflemen (yes I realize that means much more than shooting a 210+ on an AQT), why isn't our success rate higher in producing riflemen? When we tell students that it takes most people 3 or more tries before shooting a rifleman score are we just being honest or are we establishing an expectation of failure for new students? That would be MY only complaint (so far), and I'm determined to play a role in increasing our success rate. BTW, I always suggest that shooters place the thumb on top or slightly toward the trigger hand rather than wrapping it around with conventional stocks (how much depending on their particular problems, hand size, finger length, etc).
Read "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie" then reread Pullem. Pay careful attention to Pullem. I believe that he coached more Olympic rifle Champions than anyone else (Anderson, Wigger, Bassham, Murdoch, Writer). The other advice that I would offer is to never practice doing things the wrong way. Learning the wrong ways won't help you and won't help you to help others. Know the right ways (and it is ways rather than way). Showing them the right ways and knowing what is important will. Always shoot the best that you can at that moment.
It is possible to finish a 2 day AS with a Rifleman rate of 50% and it is certainly possible to finish a bootcamp with 100%. A lot of factors come into play though. Among these are the experience and hunger for knowledge and success of the students; the knowledge of the instructors; and even a little luck. For an instructor perhaps the most important lesson is to learn that the pace is determined by the students, not by the Course of Fire, the clock or the instructor. If you have to compromise between AQT's and instruction, INSTRUCT!!!
Don's rewrite of the Instructor Manual has a lot of good information. It is a great source. But it shouldn't be your only source. You are already ahead of the game with your thirst for knowledge. Keep it up and you will become better than "good enough".
Quote from: Minutemom on November 20, 2013, 04:26:39 PM
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 03:45:37 PM
Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
Uh-oh, I'll have to remember that when I move up to a "real" rifle, LOL. I like my teeth where they are.
I was at a shoot at Hernando a while back. We had a 200 yards available so on Sunday those that had CF rifles were allowed to set up for some KD shooting. I was given the chance to do some shooting that day and took off my Orange Hat and got on the firing line with my M1. After the first course of fire a younger shooter came up to me and said "How do you do it?" I return with "Do what?" "Get right on top of your rifle like that.? Mine just kicked me in the teeth." He pulled his upper lip back and sure enough his rifle had kicked him in the mouth and put a tooth right through his upper lip.
I hold he that you have to firmly pull the butt stock tightly into your shoulder using a firm hand shake grip on the stock, place your thumb over the wrist of the stock and in front of the comb. Your cheek should rest on the comb and be stopped on your thumb. Using this form the rifle has no chance of getting a running start on your head during recoil to be able to kick you. It also reduces felt recoil because it adds your upper body weight to that of the rifle.
He came back during the next break and exclaimed, "You know, that WORKS."
My 13 year old, 80# grandson at was able to shoot my M1 at rifleman's cadence without getting kicked by it. All because he used this form.
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 04:54:42 PM
Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
Don't tell David Tubb (11 time national high power champ with 308 and 6xc, multi long Range National Champion), Sherri Gallagher (National High Power Record holder with a 2396 of 2400 who shoots 260 Remington) , Nancy Tompkins (muti-smallbore, high-power, and Long Range National Champion with .308 and other calibers) that. Each of them shoots at least some rifles with the thumb along the trigger side of the stock. They also have taught other champions to do the same. It is absolutely possible to shoot a .30 in that way, particularly in prone. If you have a good position, your trigger hand exists to do one thing and that is activate the trigger with steady even pressure.
I consider this advice akin to being told that you can't achieve an upright head position with the M1 because it kicks too much and you need the butt seated down in the shoulder rather than in a position to allow an upright head position. It is simply not true.
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 03:45:37 PMLike when shaking a man's hand, you should not be trying to crush the others hand but you should have a strong enough grip on his hand that you could hand wrestle with him. How else could you "firmly pull the rifle into your shoulder?" Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock [m]ight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
The first couple times I shot my M1 Garand I got a mouth full of knuckles or a cut lip, but it had nothing to do with my thumb. Instead I had a lousy head position. My head was leaning too far forward, so rather than a cheek weld I had a hybrid "cheek-gumline weld." $$-0
Wrapping my thumb around the stock "worked," but it was a band-aid -- it made me index my head position farther back. Adding a stock pad was another band-aid. The solution was simply to improve my head position. A little more practice and neck stretches, more looking forward instead of up on the stock, and I no longer get any bites. And my thumb is back alongside the stock, which for me at least is more repeatable.
I really see the benefit of thumb along the stock with my new bolt-action rimfire... when you break your trigger hand position on every shot, you learn in a hurry whether or not it's going back to the same spot.
Squeeze the trigger / press the trigger? Semantics in my opinion. When we explain "Squeeze the trigger" we speak of pressing straight back, steadily increasing pressure until the shot breaks. But if it helps a particular student to remember by thinking about it as pressing rather than squeezing, that's just fine. :cool2:
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 03:45:37 PM
Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
Hmm that's odd as I have never encountered the "kick in the teeth" you speak of. I shoot everything from my .22 to my Unites States Rifle cal .30 model 1 with my thumb down the side of the stock. I wonder where people come up with this stuff?
QuoteHow else could you "firmly pull the rifle into your shoulder?" Holding your thumb over the hand and not over the comb of the stock wight work with a 22 or a 223 but do that with a 30 cal and you will get kicked in the teeth.
This is simply untrue. The rifle will go nowhere if you are properly slung up. How else could you "firmly pull the rifle into your shoulder?". The same way you do it with a .22; with the middle, ring and pinky fingers of your trigger hand. The thumb has nothing to do with it.
UL
Let's make this simple.......(this arguement is more fun in person) *and I have done it...ask Nero*
Pull out your cell phone.....
-now try to "squeeze" your buttons, and call me!
Grab thee boob tube controller,
-again, "squeeze" thee buttons?....what channel are yee on?...did you mean to do that?
Try thee front door....
-"squeeze" thee door bell
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Head to thee bathroom....
-Now try "pressing" thee toothpaste...........
Kitchen anyone?
-did you have "pressed" orange juice this morning?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Forget this.......another tact
face something....anything....
-"Press" it ....which way did it go?........I'll wager "away from you"
-Try "squeezing it"........did you hug it?
We "instruct" via mental images, as much as verbatum verbage
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
NRA uses "press" to get into "sync" with young" folks......whom "depress" buttons on video games all day, everyday.
Older generations of folks whom were educated. (yep period) were drilled as to meanings of words, and to thee consequent's of them.
* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/squeeze?s=t *.....
what thee word "squeeze" means...*note thee word "press" is involved.
* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/press?s=t *....
what thee word "press" means.....*note, steadily applied weight or force. *
* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depress?s=t *....
"depress just for fun*
NO ONE is WRONG in this discussion......it's a "style"........
You have to types of students
-Audio
-Visual
We teach to BOTH at thee same time......hence thee "style"
don't "limit" yourself
And don't get started on thee "thumb".......which has NO job in rifle shooting BUT to to be attached to your hand......
pssttt go look at a flintlock......that "fancy" piece of metal...silver or brass on the comb of thee stock has a name.....tis called a "Thumb piece".......a place to put your thumb while shooting
well have fun ya'll...... :DH: :DH: :DH: :DH: :DH: :pop: :pop: :pop:
Depending on who's model you're working from, there are as few as 3 and as many as 8 different learning styles. The simplest would be:
Visual: (monkey see, monkey do)
Verbal: (describe to me what to do and I'll do it).
Kinesthetic: (Position my body exactly how it should be and let me absorb what that feels like)
A slightly more nuanced model might include:
Aural: (They learn via music, sounds, rhythm - not very adaptable to what we do although this kind of student probably loves rifleman's cadence)
Logical: (explain to the student exactly WHY you want them to do what you are asking of them). And the answer isn't "because you'll shoot better." It needs to be specific.
Further nuance might include:
Social: Learns best in groups (likes to bounce ideas off of others in the group and seeks support and reinforcement from the group)
Solitary: Learns best alone (likes to figure it out on their own, needs very little attention. The quintessential "self-taught" person)
Most everyone is a mixture of all of these with a bias toward one or two predominant styles.
Additionally, there are a number of books that have been published on the subject of skill development in the last few years. I used the concepts in them to help teach myself how to shoot before attending my 1st AS event. My favorites are:
The Talent Code
Talent is Overrated
The Little Book of Talent (new one - more of a bare bones "how to" book on learning new skills). If you're an instructor and only want to read one, this is the one. Very brief and to the point. Loaded with good ideas that we can use.
~~:)SOM, SOM ~~:) :wb: ~~:)
It says squeeze the trigger - not the hand or grip - nothing but the trigger. Press is new and probably more correct but the end is the same with careful listening and instructing. No need to change it.
Instructors, make sure your students don't misinterpret what you've said.
Plain and simple.
Ironbar, I'm glad you've found Appleseed to be a useful endeavor. And have even gone so far as to offer constructive criticism - For that I thank you! But I must be honest, I think you're holding back on us. You must have some other criticism(s) or suggested areas of improvement! I know RWVA Instructors and the Appleseed course of fire purt-darn-near perfect but it's not perfect.
So, what are your plans after you become a Rifleman?
I call step 5 "squeeze the trigger," but in my explanation, I use both "squeeze" and "press." I consider them interchangeable. More importantly than any terminology, I always emphasize that what it means is to apply STEADILY INCREASING PRESSURE on the trigger until the rifle fires.
I consider "squeezing the trigger" to be very different than "squeezing the trigger and the whole grip" -- though I might start emphasizing not doing the latter more in future instruction, to avoid any confusion.
I have noticed that a lot of you in this thread are spelling squeeeeeeeeeeeeezed wrong. It's suppose to be 13 e's right :)
How bout pull the trigger? Or maybe activate? Perhaps work the trigger? I'm going with moving the trigger to its rearward detent position.
Personally I squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze a trigger and press a button. That's from my own orientation to the difference of squeezing i.e, pulling back vs. pressing which is pushing forward.
On the other hand, if pressing the trigger while squeezing it helps someone understand the concept then I am all for it. I will definitely keep that in mind at the next shoot I do.
Honestly, is this the most important thing we've got to burn brain cells on?
TaosGlock is right: The tradition we're teaching uses "squeeze."
There are other shooting curriculums I teach where we use "press," as in "trigger press." And shotgunners really do "pull" the trigger.
None of that is important.
What's important is:
-- no "trigger "yank"
-- no dragging wood
-- no milking the cow
-- firm handshake grip
-- pulled firmly back into the shoulder pocket
-- only the pad of the finger on the trigger
If they do these things right, the trigger actuation will be correct and it won't matter what you call it.
But the program calls it "squeeze."
Quote from: malabar on November 26, 2013, 06:02:37 PM
There are other shooting curriculums I teach where we use "press," as in "trigger press." And shotgunners really do "pull" the trigger.
None of that is important.
What's important is:
-- no "trigger "yank"
-- no dragging wood
-- no milking the cow
-- firm handshake grip
-- pulled firmly back into the shoulder pocket
-- only the pad of the finger on the trigger
If they do these things right, the trigger actuation will be correct and it won't matter what you call it.
But the program calls it "squeeze."
The program also teaches you not to teach the negative but the positive. In other words don't teach what not to do, but instead teach what works (which is almost always more than one way). Show what works. In other words don'y spend time talking about trigger "yank".
None of the trigger control issues above is important. What is important is activating the trigger without disturbing the sights. That is the whole goal of the exercise.
If a shooter is "dragging wood" but shooting V's and 5's, it is obvious that the act of dragging wood isn't affecting his shooting (and particularly not affecting it within the 4moa standard). Instead of watching the trigger finger and looking for space between the finger and the stock, try watching the muzzle and the target. If you see muzzle movement during the trigger activation, then diagnose and correct.
We could examine "firm handshake grip" but we will save that sacred cow for another barbeque.
The other specific example that I want to mention is "only the pad of the finger on the trigger", I used to teach this, but I was wrong. The reason that I was wrong was that for some people the best position is the pad, short fingers may have to use the tip (even with a thumb on triggerside hand position), and long fingers may need to go to the joint.
A number of years ago, some German writers who were also good shooters produced the book "Ways of the Rifle". This book examines the positions, equipment, and techniques of the worlds best shooters between 2004-2008. They went in to the book thinking that they would examine these shooters, find that the best did similar things, document those things and produce a book to help other shooters.
They found something very different and much more valuable. The cookie cutter doesn't work. For every Olympic champion's prone position, there are variations, in some case major variations. It was the same with offhand and kneeling. The point is that a one sized fits all approach cannot meet the needs of Olympic rifle shooters or Appleseeders. You have to know the doctrine, and then know when to break it to help your student succeed.
In terms of trigger control, the only thing that is important is activating the trigger without disturbing the sights. It doesn't matter if you squeeze, or press, or tickle for that matter. All that matters is that you do it in such a way so as to shoot a 5 or a V.
..I tickle the trigger too.. :~
..God Bless and have a wonderful Thanksgiving to all my fellow Patriots....and thanks for all you do my brothers and sisters, I am thankful for Project Appleseed and all its volunteers..
.......Strength & Honor..............Josey Wales......................
You folks do know that activating the trigger is one of those places where rifles, pistols and shotguns are different, don't you?
You "pull" the trigger on a shotgun (overriding factor is to the break the shot at the precise time).
You "push" the trigger on a pistol. Because squeezing indicates a whole hand, which can easily take you off target.
You "squeeze" the trigger on a rifle. Always been that way.
As to a tactical school like Gunsite teaches, that's their business. We teach traditional riflery, and truth be known, we're a history organization that teaches marksmanship.
When the Gunsite boys can shoot under 1/4 MOA @ 200 meters (in other words, best me), then they can start saying more. I'm not saying I'm better than them overall even (that would be boasting), nor am I saying "I'm right". Gunsite is a different discipline, and they use a different program. And, by the way, timing is very important there, unlike here.
But, I am saying "I'm not wrong".