Greetings all!
I have a simple question that will hopefully result in information to make an informed purchase....
I am going to order a Garand from the CMP. Is there any compelling mechanical reason (reliability, charge clip function) to avoid the .308Win chambering they offer in their "Special Grade" rifles???
I do not wish to argue ballistic superiority of the .30-06 vs the ".30-06 short" :DH: as I am well schooled in their differences, and know that the .308 is nothing compared to its "Daddy" ;) and that we all cringe when the wimpy .308 is called the "7.62 NATO", as the organization is dubious on the best days... I even love the quote by the late Col. Jeff Cooper where he said : "There aren't many problems a man can't fix with seven-hunnert dollars and a thirty-ought-six".... That alone should tell you of my appreciation of this historic--yet relavent, cartridge.....
All that aside, I have loading equipment in .308Win along with thousands of pieces of quality brass. Though I own a Savage 110LA in .30-06, I do not shoot it as much as my .308 or other common Eastern Deer rifles.... And I desire a Garand...
Your thoughts are appreciated!
Fabricator
I have heard of reliability issues with .308 Garands, however, the CMP guys typically know what's what with Garands and if they say they work, then they probably do.
Above that...WHY? Garand = .30-06 (although I'd love a skinnied up one in .276 Pedersen....AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN!) It's not like you have to double up on magazines or anything like that to support a unique system. You already own reloading equipment. You can share bullets with the .308. It will cost you a grand total of a set of dies and some brass.
And you won't have to endure horrified looks from the gun gods.
I purchased a CMP M1 Special Grade in .308 just over one year ago. I have just at 1,000 rounds through it to date, the majority of those (600+) at known distances out 500 yards. I have had zero ZERO malfunctions with a variety of ammo.
Radway Green Nato 147 grain (wish I had bought a lot more that the 150 rounds I got pre-panic)
Atomic Match (from CMP) 168 grain -- love this stuff
Federal Match 168 grain just about identical to Atomic
American Eagle Nato 7.62 168 grain excellent, hard to tell from 'Match'
CBC 'Sniper' 168 grain HPBT very very good, just a click difference at 400 yards and 2 at 500.
I have used Fulton's 5 round, 2 round & SLED device -- I'd advise skipping the SLED and the reduced round clips are not a must have. Check out Garand & CMP forums and you tube as to how to safely run single loading. I have yet to get an M1 thumb, knock wood, but if you load as it's designed you won't. It does demand an appropriate technique and awareness on the user's part.
Yes, occasionally you have to 'bump' the op rod handle after inserting a new clip, in fact it a good habit to ALWAYS do it, but .30 06 is the same I think on that.
I've used some different solvents, lubes and grease and I think I've settle on Shooters Choice, and Tetra Lube & Tetra Grease. Cold doesn't seem to bother it, I've shot a lot in the 15 degree weather.
Just getting started on reloading for this winter, look for CCI Large Military Rifle primers still.
As far as the ballistic advantage of .30 06 over .308 / 7.62 you would need an adjustable gas plug and a lot of care to use bullets heavier than about 168 grain in the 06 to realize the advantage beyond 500 or 600 yards. Bent op rods are expensive to replace! But that is a real advantage to the .30 06, I think I 'll just have to get another one in 06!
Anyway, I love my M1, accurate, realiable, fun to shoot, excellent sights. My 55 year old astigmatic eyes work with them out to 500 yards. Try it. You MUST shoot steel at those distances with your M1. Personally, I can't get enough of it.
fisherdawg ;D
Hawkeye is a very experienced M1 shooter btw -- touch base with him on this too.
Quote from: Fabricator on November 19, 2013, 02:27:40 PM
Greetings all!
I have a simple question that will hopefully result in information to make an informed purchase....
I am going to order a Garand from the CMP. Is there any compelling mechanical reason (reliability, charge clip function) to avoid the .308Win chambering they offer in their "Special Grade" rifles???
I do not wish to argue ballistic superiority of the .30-06 vs the ".30-06 short" :DH: as I am well schooled in their differences, and know that the .308 is nothing compared to its "Daddy" ;) and that we all cringe when the wimpy .308 is called the "7.62 NATO", as the organization is dubious on the best days... I even love the quote by the late Col. Jeff Cooper where he said : "There aren't many problems a man can't fix with seven-hunnert dollars and a thirty-ought-six".... That alone should tell you of my appreciation of this historic--yet relavent, cartridge.....
All that aside, I have loading equipment in .308Win along with thousands of pieces of quality brass. Though I own a Savage 110LA in .30-06, I do not shoot it as much as my .308 or other common Eastern Deer rifles.... And I desire a Garand...
Your thoughts are appreciated!
Fabricator
Tough choice. Having owned both calibers (my current M1 is 30-06) my advice is: Get one of each! ..:..
You will not be sorry either way you go, if you only get one.
When your rifle(s) shows up, be sure to post pictures.
kenjo
:pop:
I own a few M1A's and Remy 5R so my 308's remains there.
Ammo is a bit cheaper for the ought six.
BF and I have 2 really nice Garands from the CMP. Both have the plugs from here (linky below) to allow a better realization of the ought six's capabilities.
http://www.garandgear.com/m1garand/detail/33-springs-and-things/flypage/75-ported-gas-plug?sef=hcfp
Besides, there is just something not right about a Garand in 308. ;D
A few of our NM instructors and a shooter that attended our 3 day RBC's have them in 308 and we did not see any problems.
It is a tough choice.
The days of cheap .30-06 are over. Now you are paying at least $.50/ round from CMP and that is for loose ammo with mixed head stamps. My next M1 will be in .308. I had originally planned to have my first one as a custom build in .308 from Don McCoy. However for a shooter rather than a match gun, he suggested that I get a .30-06 in Service Grade. I don't regret that decision, though I did miss my chance to get an M1 built by the best M1 Smith ever.
You might also consider the new classes that CMP is offering. They have a $400 class where you build your own Special Grade M1 (for an additional $1000).
There is no problem with shooting heavy bullets in the M1. The problem is the burn rate of the powder you load. This is a problem with any gas gun. Use a powder with a slow burn rate and the pressure in the barrel will be too high when the bullet passes the gas port. This will create an over pressure condition in the gas system and can lead to op rod damage.
Stick with IMR 4895 or similar powders and your good to go.
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 19, 2013, 06:31:37 PM
There is no problem with shooting heavy bullets in the M1. The problem is the burn rate of the powder you load. This is a problem with any gas gun. Use a powder with a slow burn rate and the pressure in the barrel will be too high when the bullet passes the gas port. This will create an over pressure condition in the gas system and can lead to op rod damage.
Stick with IMR 4895 or similar powders and your good to go.
Douglas,
I'm not at all expert on reloading, just know what I've read:
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html
In addition to be sure in have a correct burn rate powder like 4895 (IMR or H), 3031, Varget etc. doesn't going to 180+ grain bullet pose pressure curve issues too? Ol' Zediker seems to imply 173 grain is tops in the M14 (M1A) in the attached article and if I understand the gas system on the 14 is a little more forgiving than on M1?
Appreciate the feedback -- this is interesting stuff!
fisherdawg
PS: Fab -- don't mean to hijack your thread. Douglas & I can head off somewhere else for this discussion, I suppose.
I believe that the Navy shot 190's in their .308 Long Range M1's. At least one shooter didn't drop a point at 1000 yards with them for the 1969 Season (ie all 100's with varying numbers of V's). The V target was used for 1000 yards until 1975 I think, though the High Power target switched to decimal in the late 1960's.
A steady diet of heavy bullets made rebuilds important.
Thank you all for the replies; and don't worry about hijacking this with relevant ballistic data!!!
I have dies for the '06 and the " '06 short", but I am often short of time and trying to simplify things from the reloading end. My wife and I are working to simplify our lives and fewer cartridge choices are a small but helpful part of that. I have been reloading since I begun helping my dad at "knee high" age, and I found peace in reducing the number of "irons in the fire". Recently, I completed building a bolt action .308 ( Rem 700 with Accuracy International "DBM") and developed an economical load that is consistently 3/4MOA (45gr Alliant RL 15 under a 165gr Sierra "Game king" BTSP). I am hooping to tune the Garand to operate safely with that load and have an easier time staying supplied for both hunting and AS related events!
Cheers,
Fabricator
You likely want to full length size your M1 Ammo, and that is probably not necessary with the 700. In addition you can still find 147gr pulled bullets much cheaper than the Game Kings. A load with 147 or 150's will cover most of your AS shooting. There is nothing wrong with a load of 165's or 168's either but you need to develop it for M2 ball pressures.
I don't shoot them out of the M1 but my .30-06 hunting load is the Hornady 165 SST. It is an amazing deer killer load.
The M1 was developed using the M1 173g FMJBT bullet at 2650 fsp. Garand was concerned the the new M2 and it's 150 grain bullet might not have enough power to run his rifle. From what I learned over the years it is the "managed recoil" loads that can lead to bent op rods. They use slow burning powders to lengthen the time of the burn cycle and reduce the perceived recoil.
I never full length size my brass and I reload for five different rifles. A maximum cartridge will be 0.006" longer than the minimum chamber and the rifle will set the shoulder back as needed. By not setting the shoulder back on your reloads you extend the life of your brass.
I've loaded H380 for years with no ill effects. It's a ball powder and meters very well. It gives good velocities at reasonable pressures.
Thanks all!
I am not planning on pumping "volume" from the Garand; that is what I use the AR-15 and 10-22 for! I really just want to get a Garand for my son and Daughter to enjoy before they are not available; he is 3 and she 5... I also cast for my .308, so it should be fairly simple to work up a load that cycles safely in the Garand. My cast .308 loads are not for long range work (over 300y) but make great woods hunting and 25M AQT target loads. I cast a 165gr and 180gr gas check bullet that I use in my .30-30, along with a 205gr in the Enfield; both have proven their mettle on whitetail deer and feral hog here in Clermont!
Cheers,
Fabricator