Hey there all,
Not sure really where to put this & i have little time. An attendee called & asked about the level of safety of the prone position. He had attended one of the Manheim events, went back to his club to practice & now some in his club are giving him a hard time about shooting in prone. He went through the process of getting prone shooting approved through the democratic means of attending a meeting, presenting his case, calling a vote, etc, but there is a rabble-rouser hell bent on getting this undone.
Apparently the 'gun' club was one of those all-too-common old timer social clubs where hunters went once a year to fire a couple rounds from a bench to sight in their rifles for the season. If that isn't your shooting program you must be some kind of young hot-head guerrilla fighter or whatever. The club is slowly drifting away from that, but some are putting up strong resistance.
Anyway, he has a club meeting tonight & i'm at work right now with 15 mins of lunch break left so i'm hoping someone out there can help me dig up some safety stats or anything to help this gent defeat these, errr, people.
Please send any links to mal1970@comcast.net.
Thank you!
How about that there's a zero percent chance that his rifle will ever fall off of a bench? ;)
I don't have safety stats, but shooting prone is part of many competitive shooting disciplines. It's not required but it's not unsafe either.
Sorry I can't help you with stats, but here's an antidotal data point for you.
One of the ranges I belong to is very concerned about rounds leaving the range because of encroachment by the neighbors. In fact they had to install baffles in front and above the line of sight on the high power range. They require members to demonstrate skills shooting from positions before they are authorized to shoot from positions on the high power range.
ShadowMan
PS - They don't host Appleseeds at that range.
No stats but I bet that ol' buzzard doesn't have stats otherwise either, turn it around on them. If he can't win the argument, he may need to change ranges or do as I did....Become a club officer....O.L.
Quote from: Audrey on November 13, 2013, 02:30:25 PM
I don't have safety stats, but shooting prone is part of many competitive shooting disciplines. It's not required but it's not unsafe either.
I like this line of thinking. I'd say "The prone position is part of the normal course of fire in numerous NRA and CMP sanctioned rifle competitions. Is this a shooting club or isn't it?" ;)
I am with oladcock on this. In what way is prone unsafe?
For an example. Setup a dummy rifle on a table, bring up a chair and demonstrate the available arc of possible muzzle sweep. Then take the same rifle, sling up, go prone and demonstrate the available arc of possible muzzle sweep. Both vertically and horizontally, the prone position wins hands down for limited movement of the rifle. If you wanted to be a real stinker about it, ask him how many times he has seen a rifle get knocked off the ground.
You best bet for stats, would accidental shooting reports. I would bet a beer 99% involve the shooter standing or moving. Not lying on the ground.
YHJ
Its not about the position (sweeping) necessarily. Think public range with bench/standing at various distances 15yrds, 25yrds, etc, to a 50 yard berm all perfectly safe. Now someone proposes laying down and shooting at 25yrd target..... shots way over berm even in the x ring... if they only think of their standard target stands. So you have to work on how to set targets in stands, how to move firing line out from under cover, etc. Working with RSOs of range to explain AS COFs, how we can work with range angles, etc., is more productive than assuming they are idiots and posting in a public forum.
Of course if none of the above applies then flame away.
YMMV
How many shooter have done an Appleseed? To my knowledge there has never been an accident. How much more proof do they need?
Had this issue at Annapolis initially.. Adjust target height accordingly, as needed, to avoid ground strikes and avoid blue sky issues... BeSwift
I do believe this speaks to some (most/all?) of the issue the detractors have. He's telling me the benches have contraptions that prevent the muzzle from rising too far, thus helping to prevent rounds from going over the berm. It is a sad state of affairs that in the nanny state we live in, things like this are required to prevent 'dufus americanus' from injuring anyone.
Quote from: V on November 13, 2013, 06:19:22 PM
Its not about the position (sweeping) necessarily. Think public range with bench/standing at various distances 15yrds, 25yrds, etc, to a 50 yard berm all perfectly safe. Now someone proposes laying down and shooting at 25yrd target..... shots way over berm even in the x ring... if they only think of their standard target stands. So you have to work on how to set targets in stands, how to move firing line out from under cover, etc. Working with RSOs of range to explain AS COFs, how we can work with range angles, etc., is more productive than assuming they are idiots and posting in a public forum.
Of course if none of the above applies then flame away.
YMMV
Quote from: V on November 13, 2013, 06:19:22 PM
Its not about the position (sweeping) necessarily. Think public range with bench/standing at various distances 15yrds, 25yrds, etc, to a 50 yard berm all perfectly safe. Now someone proposes laying down and shooting at 25yrd target..... shots way over berm even in the x ring... if they only think of their standard target stands. So you have to work on how to set targets in stands, how to move firing line out from under cover, etc. Working with RSOs of range to explain AS COFs, how we can work with range angles, etc., is more productive than assuming they are idiots and posting in a public forum.
Of course if none of the above applies then flame away.
YMMV
This is likely their thought process, maybe combined with some, "why would anyone want to shoot from any position but a bench."
The biggest fear is often muzzle control while slinging up. By Cooper's Rules, the assumption is that every rifle is always loaded. When slinging up, the muzzle often gets pointed over the berm.
A good way to address this concern is to inspect the chamber before slinging up, and only insert a mag and load when in final position, with the muzzle pointed at the berm. A small change in the rules, to inspect the chamber, and only load after slung up, often helps to address the fears of those that have never shot other than on a bench.
Another concern, though, is when a range is intended for shooting at 50 or 100 yards. Placing a target at 25 meters often means that when shooting from some positions (I.e., standing) some positions can't prevent ground ricochets from theoretically clearing the berm. For those ranges, shooting at 25 meters often means only shooting prone or seated/kneeling! Some range officers also won't allow kneeling, as many shooters are not stable in this position.
The concern is, of course, always safety, for both those on the range, as well as for those within 4 or 5 miles of the range. Address the safety concerns, and the prohibitions on different styles of shooting often can be mitigated.
I can only recall one range that we did not move the firing line up to the berm. On all of the others, the target line was set up at the berm and the firing line 25 meters in front of that.
Improvise, adapt, overcome. There is ALWAYS a way to get it done.
do we know what happened at the meeting?
is there any kind of organized followup needed?
I think the smart response is the one suggested above: Point out that prone shooting is the bedrock of competitive shooting in smallbore, midrange and and longrange (1,000 yards) competition.
Point out that one of the oldest and most prestigious forms of shooting competition in the world is the Palma Trophy Match, which dates back to 1876. It's shot at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in prone with a .30 caliber rifle and a sling.
These guys can hit a pie plate at 1,000 yards.
Prone shooting is an American tradition and we're better at it than any other country in the world (thr US has won the Palma 13 times out of the 27 times it's been held).
Then point out that the boys scouts only allow their shooters to fire from prone because it's so safe -- and they let preteens shoot.
Focus on the four safety rules and explain why it keeps the line safe.
tk
Quote from: malabar on November 14, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
I think the smart response is the one suggested above: Point out that prone shooting is the bedrock of competitive shooting in smallbore, midrange and and longrange (1,000 yards) competition.
Point out that one of the oldest and most prestigious forms of shooting competition in the world is the Palma Trophy Match, which dates back to 1876. It's shot at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in prone with a .30 caliber rifle and a sling.
These guys can hit a pie plate at 1,000 yards.
Prone shooting is an American tradition and we're better at it than any other country in the world (the US has won the Palma 13 times out of the 27 times it's been held).
Then point out that the boys scouts only allow their shooters to fire from prone because it's so safe -- and they let preteens shoot.
Focus on the four safety rules and explain why it keeps the line safe.
tk
All of this.^^
As well as
all of the NRA sanctioned centerfire/rimfire sports including the Adventure Camp for youths between 13-17 at the NRA Whittington Center.
Start by calling them a bunch of fudds, and follow up by asking whether they are planning on bringing their benches with them when they go into battle with the New World Order's storm troopers.
:)
Nah, seriously, just mention all the disciplines that use field positions, remind them that not everyone shoots bench rest competition and some like to practice for actual field shooting, and challenge them to show any statistics that show bench shooting is any safer than prone.