I have been shooting Appleseeds for a while. Still trying to get my patch. I just want to know if any of the instructors feel like that there are times when it is just good to put everything back to square one. You know strip the rifle down to bare bones, readjust all the slings, rezero, etc. Sometimes I feel like I am to caught up in the process and not thinking enough about the end result that I want. I can't unlearn the things I have come to know through AS but we talk about drinking from the fire hose and sometimes I feel like the hose is still one. I don't know if I am stating this clearly enough but that's the best I got.
Fido, good question. I like to break our accurate shooting method into two parts. It makes it easier to diagnose where my errors are.
1. Proper position including all the steady hold factors (body angle, sling worn properly, support elbow under rifle, cheek weld, etc). Without a solid foundation, you can try to use the 6 Steps but your muzzle will still wobble or drift off target. The best way to check your solid position is the closed-eyes NPOA drill, which you can do dry-fire just as well as with live rounds.
2. Using the 6 Steps to Firing the Shot, in order. Of the steps, the one that I see done wrongly most often is the trigger squeeze. Having a buddy assist you with the ball-and-dummy drill will uncover any anticipation issues you might have that make you snatch the trigger at the break point. Rigorous dry-fire training, being super-critical about whether that front sight moves at all when the sear trips, will help you smooth out the trigger squeeze. I recently saw some good training videos by Keith Sanderson (Army and Olympic competitor) in which he recommended that the ratio of dry fire to live fire training should be 100:1. I doubt many people other than regular competition shooters do that. The second-most frequent error is focusing one's eye on the target rather than on the front sight.
A third idea is a question: What are your targets telling you? Use the Talking Targets page to help diagnose your issue.
I hope you continue this thread as you explore the diagnostic process.
My comments:
1. If you are shooting with a scope, switch to tech-sights. Two reasons: first, a scope on a rim-fire allows you to cheat, and get better scores than your marksmanship actually warrants. Second, a scope tempts you to watch each shot, and you lose the benefit of shooting a string of five, feeling how it went, going downrange, finding suprises, asking your body what went wrong, and then building long term muscle memory. People shooting rimfire with scopes that can't get past 150 to 180 are not uncommon.
2. If you are shooting with irons, ask yourself whether you can clearly see the front sight (and I mean clearly with clear crisp edges). If you cant, you have vision problems, and need to learn to shoot with a scope. I've got only one eye that works, which has lots and lots of astigmatism, so my front sight has lots and lots of little edges. The best I've done with iron sights on a rimfire is in the high 190s, and that is with a tail wind and carefully balancing on one leg.
3. Use the AQT as a diagnostic tool. Your real problem is that you don't know what the problem is. The AQT will tell you. Work it stage by stage. Any stage that you get 8 shots in the black, you're shooting Rifleman. I would start with Stage 4, and really not worry about the others until I was consistently getting 8 in the black on Stage 4. We tell shooters that because Stage 4 counts double, they can make up lost ground, but the opposite is also true: anything less than 8 in the black on Stage 4 takes double to make up on the other stages.
4. The AQT is not a particularly good tool for developing skills, in my opinion. The best is a private range at 25 yds, where you can use squares and shoot five and check it, shoot five and check it. Next best is Sunday morning session at Appleseed, where you are shooting squares on a line, which doesn't go as fast. But, you need a plan; you need to know what in the Marksmanship Toolbox you are working on (Steady Hold Factors/Position, Six Steps, NPOA, Cadence), and then you need to experiment. Tighten up the sling half an inch, and see if the groups tighten up or loosen up. Try slightly different points on the trigger finger. Ultimately, you need to determine what in the Marksmanship Toolbox can fix your groups. But there is certainly a tool in there. It's just a matter of finding the right one.
My advice is not to ditch the scope, unless it is broken. You need to do some diagnostics.
But, my bet is that you don't have a good zero and you don't even realize it. Here are a couple of things to try.
1. One of the best things that you can do in individual practice is to get an AQT, make copies of stage 4 and zero from sling supported prone on the stage 4 target. I used to do this at Bootcamps and had a 100% Rifleman rate at them. What do I mean by zero? I don't mean 4 shots somewhere in a square at 25m, that's for sure. Be critical. On a square the shots should be touching or close to it, and well centered. If you zero on the stage 4 target and practice at it, you should be shooting mostly 5's and V's. I have given this advice to many students shooting 170's and above and it has a high rate of success.
2. Shoot "point of aim, point of impact", as long as you can differentiate the sight from the target. This is also called a "center hold" or a "Navy hold." It is one of the best ways to improve quickly. Eventually you might decide to try a 6 o'clock hold and do even better but the problem on the AQT is that a 6 o;clock hold on stage 3, much less stage 1 or 2 will mean misses on stage 4. Shoot center hold.
3. Especially on stage 4 you need to be critical of your NPOA (NPA). While you may fire your shots at a "rifleman's cadence," you should not be haphazard in your NPOA. For each of the 4 targets, your process should be adjust position, align sights, get sight picture, check NPOA by closing your eyes and taking 2 breaths, if the NPOA is not correct adjust position and repeat. When it is correct, breath and fire without disturbing the sight picture.
4. Dryfire, a few times a week.
5. Improve your offhand. With 2 minutes and that big target you should be shooting 45+ in offhand.
Relax, your goal is to just go out and shoot well. If you do that, the rest will come.
If you have specific questions feel free to contact me by PM. I will do what I can to help you.
Quote from: jmdavis on October 21, 2013, 12:18:39 PM
My advice is not to ditch the scope, unless it is broken. You need to do some diagnostics.
But, my bet is that you don't have a good zero and you don't even realize it. Here are a couple of things to try.
1. One of the best things that you can do in individual practice is to get an AQT, make copies of stage 4 and zero from sling supported prone on the stage 4 target. I used to do this at Bootcamps and had a 100% Rifleman rate at them. What do I mean by zero? I don't mean 4 shots somewhere in a square at 25m, that's for sure. Be critical. On a square the shots should be touching or close to it, and well centered. If you zero on the stage 4 target and practice at it, you should be shooting mostly 5's and V's. I have given this advice to many students shooting 170's and above and it has a high rate of success.
2. Shoot "point of aim, point of impact", as long as you can differentiate the sight from the target. This is also called a "center hold" or a "Navy hold." It is one of the best ways to improve quickly. Eventually you might decide to try a 6 o'clock hold and do even better but the problem on the AQT is that a 6 o;clock hold on stage 3, much less stage 1 or 2 will mean misses on stage 4. Shoot center hold.
3. Especially on stage 4 you need to be critical of your NPOA (NPA). While you may fire your shots at a "rifleman's cadence," you should not be haphazard in your NPOA. For each of the 4 targets, your process should be adjust position, align sights, get sight picture, check NPOA by closing your eyes and taking 2 breaths, if the NPOA is not correct adjust position and repeat. When it is correct, breath and fire without disturbing the sight picture.
4. Dryfire, a few times a week.
5. Improve your offhand. With 2 minutes and that big target you should be shooting 45+ in offhand.
Relax, your goal is to just go out and shoot well. If you do that, the rest will come.
If you have specific questions feel free to contact me by PM. I will do what I can to help you.
Best advice I've seen. O0 Many get hung up on the time monkey or some other part of the process and lose focus on everything else. For some the light bulb comes on fairly quick, others not so much. Once that light bulb comes on, you'll wonder why it was ever so difficult to start with! :) Practice, practice, practice...Especially dry fire. If you can't maintain NPOA due to faulty position/sling use, or you can't break a shot without the sights wiggling, all the rest doesn't matter....O.L.
3 suggestions:
1. Dry practice, at home, using the different field positions, 6 steps to firing the shot, and quickly finding your NPOA for each position. Go slowly at first, then use a timer to get used to getting into the Stage 2 and 3 positions, finding your NPOA and getting your first (dry) shot off smoothly and quickly.
2. See #1
3. See #1
kenjo
If you have a bore sighter, then use it to diagnose your steady hold factors. It should rise and fall in a straight line. It also shouldn't move when the trigger breaks when you dry fire.
Last, but not least, relax. It is the key to NPOA.
ShadowMan
All good advice above, so I won't repeat. But let's also take a minute to check the hardware. Are the action, scope base and rings screws tight? Have you marked them with a fine point white paint marker so that you know instantly if anything changes? Been shooting lots of lead ammo? If so, have you thoroughly cleaned the bore to get the lead shavings out of the grooves? Is your sling keeper nice and tight, or does it allow slippage? Get your cheek weld with your eyes closed. Then open your eyes. Do you need to build up your comb so you can see through your sights?
UL
Thanks for all the good advice. What I am looking at is not so much the technical aspects of a particular rifle or the physical tools of shooting, but the mental mindset. It seems like I am getting so caught up in come ups, adjustments, etc. that "just shooting" gets lost in the traffic up there. I also am having trouble getting in the "bubble". I feel like I am overthinking everything.
I have also come to the conclusion after this last weekend at Marion, IL that I will need to use an "adaptive" Appleseed. I cannot get in the sitting position at all and kneeling is not much better. The prone has become too painful as well. I am too stiff to get the muzzle of the rifle up onto the target and it takes me 45-60 seconds to slowly work my way back up to a standing position. After a couple of AQTs my back is spasming so hard I can't get down again. Yesterday, I shot a couple of AQTs using a old kitchen chair that was on the range turned backwards so I could get some elbow support for stages 2,3,and 4. I can continue to shoot stage 1 standing for now.
I need to find a light portable bench that will give me good support for both elbows.
After seeing you shoot several times olefido I would have to agree with you. You seem to be fighting off some terrible pain while in prone and the seated well...... I wish you luck and remember we do what we can do but mainly what our body will let us do. I think you may have finally distinguished the difference between pain and discomfort. I've seen your face I pretty much knew it was pain. You old 11bravo's are hard headed though. O0 I mean that in a good way my friend. ;)
I can't help much with the pain aspect other than to say that I can relate to some of it: my right hip definitely doesn't like to be folded into the sitting position, some days more than others. Daily stretching exercises can help increase flexibility to make position shooting easier.
Regarding the mental mindset part, it's like a lot of other activities: you can only work on some aspects if you have the others down pat. Your mind can't process all of them simultaneously. You have to work on each one until it becomes automatic, then add another, then another, etc. until you're up to the whole enchilada. By the time you are shooting a course of fire with time constraints, transitions, come-ups, etc. you should be to the point where steady hold factors, sling adjustment, NPOA, breath control, trigger squeeze, i.e., "just shooting" are so routine you don't have to think about them, you just do them. As kenjo said, those can all be developed with dry fire practice. By the time you are shooting an AQT, all you have to think about is come-ups and number of shots for each target, and you don't even have to do much thinking then if you have those written down where you can see them easily.
Hi OF,
To find the bubble you have to be able to relax.
Find a comfortable portable bench if that is what you need. As mentioned above practice on the stage 4 targets. Figure out how to get NPOA with your bench set up and shoot by the numbers.
Don't over practice. Once the pain hits stop.
Do the steps until you don't have to think about it your body just does it.
:~
Quote from: Mudcat on October 21, 2013, 09:53:03 PM
After seeing you shoot several times olefido I would have to agree with you. You seem to be fighting off some terrible pain while in prone and the seated well...... I wish you luck and remember we do what we can do but mainly what our body will let us do. I think you may have finally distinguished the difference between pain and discomfort. I've seen your face I pretty much knew it was pain. You old 11bravo's are hard headed though. O0 I mean that in a good way my friend. ;)
Thanks, Mudcat. BTW, my dad was in the Engineers in WW2. I still have his certificate from the Manhattan Project.
Olefido,
I would first like to commend you on your persistence, and also thank you for the work you are doing with Libertyseeds.
As someone who watched you shoot in Marion this past weekend, and from talking to you...I think you are right about the adaptive appleseed. I think that you are so uncomfortable, that the back pain keeps you from 1)being able to relax when you shoot and 2)being able to get in the bubble. I just think that if you could relax, you could just shoot, using the 6 steps and getting in the bubble, which would keep you from overthinking everything else.
In my opinion, you need to find whatever Adaptive Appleseed situation will work for you. If a table is what you need, fine-just make sure you can relax with that position. Then, begin shooting using the 6 steps, remembering the basics. Looking at your targets, change only 1 thing at a time, so you will know what helped and what didn't.
Hope this helps!
LesMoore
Wow, really great advice. I will use it in my dry fire practice at home. Thanks for this thread.
Chris
Quote from: LesMoore on October 22, 2013, 01:04:33 AM
Olefido,
I would first like to commend you on your persistence, and also thank you for the work you are doing with Libertyseeds.
As someone who watched you shoot in Marion this past weekend, and from talking to you...I think you are right about the adaptive appleseed. I think that you are so uncomfortable, that the back pain keeps you from 1)being able to relax when you shoot and 2)being able to get in the bubble. I just think that if you could relax, you could just shoot, using the 6 steps and getting in the bubble, which would keep you from overthinking everything else.
In my opinion, you need to find whatever Adaptive Appleseed situation will work for you. If a table is what you need, fine-just make sure you can relax with that position. Then, begin shooting using the 6 steps, remembering the basics. Looking at your targets, change only 1 thing at a time, so you will know what helped and what didn't.
Hope this helps!
LesMoore
Thanks, Les. I appreciate it.